Anyone seen this trick?

[rackmsuckr]

I enjoy magic a lot, and the oohs and ahhs of a great show. I like that guy that makes people levitate and when he throws cards at a window they stick but they are stuck to the INSIDE of the window.

I remember in Vegas one year, Holly Sholes and I bought a kit from the magic store in the Riviera with a bunch of magic tricks. We divvied it up and she got the trick I wanted, which included a fake finger, because the finger was too white for my skin. LOL!

 

[MacGyver]

btw: I've met a few magicians who would not explain a trick without payment. For a few $, they soon forget the argument about maintaining the fascination. And the first thing they are likely to tell the buyer is the importance of the secrecy compact, so to keep their potential revenues maximized. Is not this economic incentive an important contributor to the ongoing promotion of the idea of maintaining secrecy.

I just want to agree with you that that is *HORRIBLE* to do that.

99% of the time, what they are selling isn't even theirs to sell(its someone elses IP which they bought for private use in performances). And anyone who actually WAS the creator, would tell them to buy the book and not just try to sell the secret for fast cash.

To not only give away someone elses creation but to charge for it is a terrible thing, but *NOT* something that is widely done by magicians.

If you told this story at any proffesional magicians club or meetings, ect, you would also find outrage there too...

I can understand how you take your position after that story, as i had thought something similer may have happened.


Most of the industry of selling magic is in the form of proffesionally published hardcover books and more recently DVD's whereby the secrets ARE kept for economical reasons(much as any IP, where the text of a novel is not given out(harry potter notorious for keeping plot secret) for free or songs are not given away on CD's for free, ect). This is simple respect for creator imho to respect their IP and suggest that anyone buy the book rather than giving/selling their secrets directly.


But again the industry and economy is 99% *proffesional*... to hear of anyone selling secrets for cash like that is akin to hearing of a cheating hustler who robbed someone of money... it just isn't indicitive of the community of magicians, imho.


-macgyver
ps One thing about your talk of keeping the secret to boost value for the seller, remember that is also boost the value of the purchase... Buying something that was intended to enable you to amaze friends and then telling people the secret would obviously lower the value of your purchase, so I would say that keeping secrets is economically viable for the seller AND the buyer.

pps For the most part I actually disagree in pool the notion of players hoarding techniques to those that are willing students, but a good analogy I would make of the modern magic publishing world and pool would be for instance "Banking with the beard". I don't have this, but I can assume that if you walked up to "the beard" and asked him to tell you the *entire* contents of the book for free, he would tell you to buy the book, pay for lessons or get lost as I'm sure there was considerable money put into getting things published, advertised ect. For the most part that is the same in the magic industry(which by the way is so small that no one is really making "good money" off of magical publications and the exposure of their creations does impact their ability to make a living).

ppps Linda: A very common story among magicians is of a local pro using a bright green, or silver, or black fake finger to fool other magicians, and then to show them the color of the finger. The point of the story is that you can use any color of fake finger since properly used it is nearly never actually seen... so if you want go back and practice with that light one, I'm sure you can make some wonderful magic with it!

pppps sorry for the ps's and for being so long winded, but this is a subject I am very passionate about and that tends to make me ramble on to try to clearly get a point across without sounding too arrogant or rightious or whatever... thanks all for reading though.

 

[Donovan]

pps I also want to *slightly* disagree with donovon on the comparison between magic and pool again, because I feel again that magic is really an art of secrets and an economy of secrets and not a good comparison.

However his example does hold merit as the person who plays pool 5 times a year might not have the drive to learn the system, just as people on a pool forum might not have the drive to learn magical secrets...

I do support people getting into magic and I feel that all secrets both in pool and magic are availible to anyone with the drive to really learn them, I just oppose(in magic specifically) the notion that secrets should be exposed to those that dont have the drive to learn.

Well, I'll say this. If you tried just giving away some of the great shots in Bert Kinister's $100 video and just started telling everyone how to do them, it sure feels like you would be robbing him of his secrets. To me it really is the same thing. But we all have to have our views.

As far as pool not being and art of secrets and an economy of secrets...well I think there are enough videos out there, who's makers might disagree. Joe Tucker I would think might feel a bit robbed if we all posted the diagrams of his racking secrets. Some of these people live off of what they have learned or discovered. Also, I feel there are shots in instances, where pool takes on the creativity and artistic flare like no other sport...Off hand I'm thinking of the last three One-Pocket matches at Derby City. OF COURSE EFREN IS THE MAGICIAN!

 

[MacGyver]

Fair enough, I'll admit i'm mostly a beginner in pool and don't know the intricate secrets of racking or banks ect so there might be some people that can claim IP over some systems or whatnot and I think you should respect people's IP....(intellectual property)

 

[Donovan]

Fair enough, I'll admit i'm mostly a beginner in pool and don't know the intricate secrets of racking or banks ect so there might be some people that can claim IP over some systems or whatnot and I think you should respect people's IP....(intellectual property)

I figured we would agree on that one. BTW, thanks for the good write ups. Reputation coming!

 

[Tommy-D]

> That stuff is a talent just like anything else,IMO. Some people can make a card trick that failed look like something amazing,others might have the trick down cold but the presentation just isn't there. Paul Frankel,the publisher of Professor Q-Ball magazine in Memphis is the best I've seen without paying admission. The first time I met him went like this. I was introduced to him at a tournament at High Pockets,we spoke for like 2 minutes,and he walked away. About an hour later,he comes up to me with 5 other people standing around and says "hey Tommy,here is that 40 I owe you" and proceeds to hit his hip,standing about 5 feet away. I had only met this guy an hour earlier,have no reason at all for him to owe me 40,but here he comes anyway. He struggles for a second or 2 to get it out of his back pocket,then takes about 3 steps towards me. He opens his wallet as if he is showing me the entire contents of the bill compartment,and it shot flames out. He says "well,I guess it burnt up",as the 5 of us stood there with our chins on the floor. Things like that tend to make people remember you in a positive light for the rest of their lives,the rarest of talents. Using a talent like that to put smiles on people's faces is probably part of the agreement for people passing things on. I can also see where a young,decent looking guy that has this talent and the natural charm that it usually accompanies to meet women,perhaps that is what David Copperfield used to snag Claudia Schiffer . Tommy D.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Type 1 is in the majority and likes to be entertained via magic and just likes the experiance and doesnt really want to know how its done. Often some of the "magic" is lost when they find out methods. Also their true feelings about wanting to know might be masked because given the simple oppertunity(reading a post on a msg board they frequent or watching a TV show) they might accept the exposure, but in the end they'd rather just be amazed.

Type 2 is the type of person that really appriciates the secrets and work involved, they want to figure out effects because the methods amaze them, and if they had time would probably be magicians themselves. They are however the minority(at least from my experiance in the US)

Hi MacGyver,

I'd just like to present for your consideration that I'm a third type of person, and a type you probably shouldn't overlook when conceptualizing your audience: when I see a good illusion done, I'm entertained, and I like the feeling of being amazed by things I can't explain. But within me there's an engineer and aspiring know-it-all that can't stand not knowing how it's done.

I think "maddening curiosity" is something you don't seem to have accounted for in your posts so far, and it's very different that your type 2 person who likes the idea of doing the magic themselves. I don't have much interest in performing the illusions that totally snow me, I'm just overwhelmingly curious about how they're done.

I think I get the most enjoyment out of an illusion if I can see it a few times, exhaust my analytical abilities for hours or days trying to figure it out, and then actually find out how it's done. I'm not posting this to refute anything you said about not revealing the secrets of professional magic, just another mindset for your consideration.

-Andrew

 

[thecardman]

Why didn't I see this thread before now???

So, I'm not the only magician around here??? WOW!

Are not magicians entertained, even thrilled and the skills and ingenuity of their contemporaries' performances. Could not a much wider audience enjoy the same knowledgeable appreciation?

Yes, Colin, we are entertained by the performances of our contempraries, although some of the stuff that we see is mainly aimed at magicians - "magician foolers". That's why we attend Magic Conventions and join Magic Clubs. Not only to have the social gathering aspect of hanging out with other magicians and "talking shop", but being able to watch our peers performing and, in some cases, fooling us very, very badly.

Fred Kaps, the only 3-time Grand Prix winner at FISM (Magic's World Championships), put it perfectly when asked about how his tricks were done. He said that he could tell us (the television audience) how the tricks were done, but we wouldn't be able to do them. He continued by saying that it's like playing a violin. We know how to play a violin but that doesn't mean that you can play the violin. There is a big difference between knowing how something is done and being able to do it.

One wee thing before I finish - generally, the secret to a magical effect is very simple and a major disappointment when it is exposed. The real magic comes from the presentation that the performer weaves around the effect itself. Without a presentation, it is simply a puzzle or a trick. Add a good presentation and that's when you get magic.

 

[Shorty]

I want to ask...

MacGyver and Donavon,
So what do you think of Penn and Teller???

They reveal some magic tricks...but they also do one at the end of their show that is quite astounding...the .44 magnum bullet catching trick, which they never reveal.

I personally love them and will be going back to Vegas eventually to see them again I hope.

Shorty

 

[thecardman]

So what do you think of Penn and Teller???

Love them!

What you have to remember is, with one exception, the things that they expose in their show are things that they, themselves, have created purely so they can be exposed in their show. The one exception, the Cups And Balls, has been performed for hundreds, possibly thousands, of years. Their presentation using clear cups as an "exposé" of the effect still manages to fool people - including magicians. All that stuff about magicians hating them isn't exactly true.

If you ever get the chance, try and catch the "Magic and Mystery Tour" series (now available on DVD - check out amazon). It will give you an idea about how serious they are about their magic - in fact, Teller even talks straight to camera about his fascination of the Cups (and he is fascinating).

A quick story to finish. A few years ago, Penn and Teller were awarded Magician of the Year from the Academy of Magical Arts and Sciences in Hollywood, CA. When they went up to accept their award, Penn took a step back and Teller made the speech. At the end of one of the best acceptance speaches I've heard/read, Teller finished with "We cannot tell you how honoured we are, and how much fun we're going to have denying it!".

 

[Colin Colenso]

No offense to Macgyver or Donovan, (how dare you take the other side )

I don't mean to be nit-picking, but I just think it would save those in the magician cult some aggravation if they weren't so protective about their art and the open discussion of it...just something to consider.

Re: IP laws. I agree there is a legitimate claim to respect the ideas that one invests their time and mental effort into developing. But IP laws are a wishy-washy area and there are pretty strong utilitarian, and perhaps ethical reasons for getting rid of them. (Not enough space here to go into but search IP Laws at the www.mises.org website for some of those arguments.)

We do know that IP ownership is not granted in the same way as physical property laws. They usually expire after a period of time and become a part of the public domain. I suspect many magic tricks are not owned, yet remain guarded from public discussion...correct?

Sure it's great to be thrilled with the magical. Just like how kids are told about Santa Claus. Personally I think knowledge and honesty stand paramount above fantasy. Not to knock magic though...it's very intriguing and I have to tip my hat to those who develop the art skillfully enough to entertain.
*rambling alert*

 

[Tbeaux]

Regarding a comparison of pool and magic. Freddy B. stated in "Banking with the Beard" that the great road players almost never give/gave away their tricks and techniques. While I see very little purpose to this guarding of "secrets" by pool players it is most definately needed by magicians.If they explained the tricks and illusions eventually no one would pay to see them.

Terry

 

[pillage6]

Same logic? I have serious doubts about that comment.

My logic is that magic is an art of secrets, whereby one creates wonder and entertainment by creating an impossible situation for the viewer.

Pool is a skill based sport..... I don't see how you could logically compare the two...

I will make a comparison though... generally those that are somehow against magicians or want to expose magic to all do so because of a bad experiance with a bad magician or due to some odd stereotype enforced by role models, and the comparison is to the people that think pool is full of dirty hustlers/alchoholics/whatever else and isn't a sport/hobby that is played by anyone honorable or as proffesionals..

I hope you can see the analogy and give us magicians a fair chance without letting preconceptions or whatnot cloud your viewpoint.

I also take offense at the thieve comment, nearly every magician I know is very honorable and true proffesionals and don't see the comparison.

At the last part, yes it is true that one can appriciate a skillful performance but that is a different experiance for both the magician and the audience if that is true.

However, I will say from my own experiance and talking to many others, that the feeling of appriciating something and knoiwing how it is done pales in comparison to really being astonished with something you can't explain...

I really think the whole world would suffer(in terms of enjoying magic) if they all had the knowledge of a proffesional magician as many of the wonder would be gone, without much end gain to the general public. I have seen first hand how much fun and uplifting magic can be to an audience, and I also know how little knowing how the trick is done adds to someone that doesnt activily use that knowledge(by performing it). Unless the person uses the information, it really, again in my experiance, is only a downside to know how effects are done as much of the wonder is gone.

I am also not trying to hide information from those that *seek* it, there are plenty of websites and whatnot and even cheap books if you wish to learn or just PM me and I will gladly discuss things with people.

I just don't agree with the senseless exposure of effect on public boards such as this to anyone that happens to read(or on TV mass marketed to the public), as they didnt ask for it and it can ruin their experiances or memories by reading such stuff(though in this case its pretty low-key, my ethical objections still stand on it).

I'll be glad to discuss it further, but please lay off comparing us to thieves or trying to compare magic(an entertainment art) to pool....

Very interesting. Personally I think sharing of information is good and lends to the evolution of things, why impede something that will ultimately help the art that you are trying to covet?

 

[thecardman]

Very interesting. Personally I think sharing of information is good and lends to the evolution of things, why impede something that will ultimately help the art that you are trying to covet?

That same excuse/reason/explanation/call-it-what-you-will was given by the masked eejit at the end of the exposure shows that were on TV a number of years ago. None of us buy it. We don't need to have stuff exposed to make us come up with better effects. The creative geniuses in magic are coming up with better effects all the time.

As one magician said when his pupil forgot who had created a particular effect, "how can you appreciate magic for the art that it is if you do not recognise those who have come before you."

 

[pillage6]

We don't need to have stuff exposed to make us come up with better effects.

That is a pretty brave statement, are you saying that everyone should learn everything by experience and their own experiments? If so, we would all be learning how to make fire. How do you govern what is talked about and what is not? How do you make a certain subject okay to be taught and others taboo?

How did you learn sir? Are you self taught? If you are I applaud you, but my guess is that most of not all of us were taught in our respective skills by someone else.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

With guys like Chriss Angel and David Blaine running around hovering and climbing walls and walking through glass........

Moving coins arouns via sleight of hand seems mundane.

 

[CantEverWin]

Try not being lazy...lol
I am the guy who wants to know how the trick is done, but wants to figure it out. I don't want to be told. I would never watch a magician if I wanted to know how all the tricks are done without figureing it out. I would just go by a book.

Lets not act like magicians arent out for money though too. David Blaine would have to be my favorite. I found out that he charges 6 figures for a 1 or 2 hour privite show. Your better off standing on a street corner to see his tricks...lol

 

[Rude Dog]

I saw this trick on the news this morning. The guy did it with 4 quarters but he put playing cards over the them. 1 by 1, they moved to one pile. The last quarter under the card was cool. He blew on the card until it almost reached the other pile where the others were and then lifted the card and it was gone. The news guy asked him how he did it and he said "I had an extra coin, I can't believe you didn't see it." Then he comes out with a coin thats about 3 times bigger than a silver dollar, lol. Then another, just like that! It was kinda cool. Peace, John.

 

[MacGyver]

One quick thing(but for the most part I agree with alot of what has been said):

Personally I think sharing of information is good and lends to the evolution of things, why impede something that will ultimately help the art that you are trying to covet?

I really disagree with this, at least until we are living in a communist society and creators can be supported without protecting their IP.


The fact of the matter is that in order for the art of magic to grow and become better, we need magical creators coming up with inventive, original stuff to push further.

These people need to eat and support families, and that means that either they have to work a full time job and try to find time to create magic, OR they need to be able to support themselves when working 40+ hours a week creating magic, working out bugs, publishing, ect and all that.

If we lived in a magical community void of ethics, respect for creators and lack of IP, then what would happen is as soon as anyone came up with anything new, it would get exposed to many and very few would buy the book/DVD/whatever(due to the lack of respect for the creator).

That person would quickly not make enough money to support himself as a magical creator and would need to find another source of income to live in today's society, and as such he wouldnt have much time for magic and the art would suffer.

Imagine this on a wide scale and you have basically how the community is trending now(currently many new people in magic will watch an online demo of an effect and then steal that effect for their show without buying the effect).

It has already forced creators to create less or come up with more secret ways to release material, either charging a lot to try to make only proffesionals(those with respect) able to afford it(in hopes it wont be stolen by the masses), or with non-disclosure agreements, or by only teaching the material face to face for a workshop fee...

Many on the whole has only suffered due to this trend, so I really cant agree that free information of people's recent creations is going to improve the art, at least not until everyone has enough generosity to send a hefty check to creators anytime they use the effect, because if not than the art will suffer.


Again, all my opinion but if you take a look at recent/current events in magic it backs this up.

-macgyver
ps I love penn and teller and have met and talked with both and they are great guys!(dont tell them I said that, tell them I said they were horrible for magic).

pps I also would like to point out that I typed a lengthy explanation that i know there are more than 2 types and I was simplyfying for the post(this part you left out of the quote). I would still say you fit more into type 2, whereby you just dont have the time or energy to pursue learning any effects, but by your nature of wanting to know the working and fanscinated with them you are the type to really appriciate the workings and in type 2.(but I agree that its oversimplyfying)

 

[twilight]

Just wanted to post in response to my first post that I was running a fever and hopped onto the boards between sleeping. I guess I really read the original posts wrong but yeah... what I said.... terrible device for the trick. sorry macgyver. i should have know i was delirious when I started opening a bowl with a can opener and my girlfriend was laughing at me. back to bed.

P.S. don't place a can opener on a plastic bowl it'll ruin it.