APA Attitude

beleary

beleary

"No Masse!"
I've debated about writing this as I'm still new to AZB, but I wanted to share some thoughts about my perception of the APA.

First some background. I first picked up a cue in an Omaha pool hall back in 1973 and fell in love with the game. I started playing in traveling pool leagues in Denver in 1985. The rules were loosely based on BCA rules, but with one big exception; you had to call every kiss. This led to many confrontations, and given the area of town I shot pool in, trouble was usually the result. Other than that, it was a great league. Very competitive and most of the players were B+ or better.

Then in the 90's the league fully adopted the 'call pocket' rule and things got better immediately. I continued to play an 'A' level traveling bar league until around 2006 and then got involved in two different in-house leagues. One VNEA and one ACS. The talent got even better in the VNEA league, and it was basically 'miss and you lose'. The ACS league was a little bit lower level (B and above), but still some really good shots.

The problem with the ACS league that I'm in is that it is considered a league where the better APA players would try and cross over into a higher level of competition and skill level. For many of them, the transition was smooth, and you never really noticed. For a small number of others, and the reason for this thread, it was an opportunity for them to bring over their bad habits, bad attitudes, poor sportsmanship and unprofessional approach to the game. Some examples would be: cheering and high-fives when their opponent would scratch on an 8-ball, standing in front of their opponent's shots, taking to their opponent when they were over or executing a shot, waving their stick around in the peripheral vision of the other player, and other kinds of 'sharking' performances.

Now keep in mind, there are A+ players on my VNEA team who also play in APA leagues, so I'm not being critical of the skill level of APA players. I recognize that it also offers an entry-level opportunity for beginners to dip their toes into competitive pool. Frankly, if it wasn't for the format of playing all your games at once and then sitting for the rest of the night, I might consider it myself. Oh, and that APA attitude.

Yes, I do realize that there are jerks in every league at every level. And you can readily find them drunk on a challenge table on Friday nights at the local bar or pool hall. Been there, done that. And I'm not into stereotyping (but reading this over, it probably sounds that way).

My question to the forum for those of you who have played APA and for those of you who only play VNEA/BCA or other leagues is whether you've observed this same kind of behavior from APA players who come into these higher skill level leagues. My personal observations can be clouded based upon only seeing a half a dozen APA leagues around the area. Maybe things are different elsewhere. I'd like to think so.

Please don't flame me, as I'm trying to change my attitude about the APA, but given what I've seen, it's a hard sell.
 
beleary...You'll find poor sports in every league, regardless of the affiliation. I don't think it's necessarily more prevalent in the APA. I've seen lots of VNEA players who exhibited the same behavior you're describing, even at the national tournament (I played VNEA for 8 years, going to Vegas every year). When I started an APA league in the same area, players were NOT allowed to behave that way...and they didn't.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Eh , bottom line , it's a game played in a bar by drunks alot of the time.

I see it in and out of league. It's sucks for sure but until you have actual 'refs' like some others sports do there's not much that can be done about it.

I try and consider it a mental competition as well.
 
I've played in both VNEA and apa league and I didn't notice that APA league members were any more rude than VNEA players. There was a lot of overlap.

Players develop "table manners" along with their shooting skill. When I played on barboxes and couldn't run a rack of 8 ball, I thought nothing about talking to my opponent or standing in front of his shot. It was like... I'm only 50/50 to run 4 balls anyway. I didn't worry about anyone ruining my focus because I hardly had any. But once I realized I could run out, every shot became more important and being distracted did too. Then I realized that I shouldn't be doing some of the things that piss me off.

It's tough to fade, but if you can ride it out, some of the bangers will start to take pool seriously and a lot of that garbage will go away. Until then, don't be afraid to get up off your shot and correct 'em. Nevermind any heckling you might get for being "anal" or whatever. It's your right and someday they'll understand.
 
People who cheer when the opponent scratches or misses the 8-ball, or scratches on the 8-ball are scumbags. That also includes cheering unlucky rolls as they happen. "Go ball go" kind of stuff.

APA has many of them, but it isn't because of the APA. It's because the APA gets many of its players from the bars/banger world of pool. Lot of trashy people with no sense of etiquette or sportsmanship to go along with their lack of hygiene.


To them, anything that occurs that has a perceived benefit to them or their player is something to be cheered.


Like many of you, I believe in applauding only the intended success of a player - not their mistakes or blunders. I never applauded slop shots, lucky safes, or anything like that. I never cared how lucky or good my player made out because of an opponent's disaster. They don't get credit for it. One small exception. If it was an intentional safe that earned BIH, the player might get a "good safe" credit. But nothing loud or obnoxious.


As the bar drunk bangers play more and more in an organized league, they tend to shape up and learn the proper pool etiquette. A few never change and they go on to be looked at as the league A-holes. But many have been reformed, or at least suppress their degenerate behavior.


That was my experience. It, like the APA gets old after a while. I choose not to be around that element any longer. There's better pool, better environments. No need to settle for the bottom.


I'm one of those people that still believes pool is a gentleman's game. To be enjoyed with a high level of sportsmanship. On the other hand, I do enjoy the shadier side of pool too. But I'm talking about a certain kind of shady. The gambling/hustling side. Lot of excitement there, lot of interesting situations. I'm not referring to criminal acts or total sleaze moves. Talking about the action.

What I don't care for is the obnoxious trashy behavior. Action can be enjoyed just fine with sportsmanship and courtesy in play. The good stuff in pool is really only found at the higher levels. There's no real action at the lower levels or bar level. It's primitive and boring. I like to see sophisticated moves. Players in a battle of wits going on simultaneously with the actual game. Backers and stake horses analyzing and planning the next moves. Watching or participating in the whole thing playing out. Good stuff. Money is a powerful motivator, and never underestimate how clever people can be when it comes to money.

I like call the bar playing primitives BARbarians. Armed with a Bud Light or Nascar brass jointed ramin wood cue, a high volume loud mouth that wont' stop, a pocket full of quarters and a few pitchers of beer (just for themselves) they are always ready and willing to demonstrate to you why the world needs more education in the use of contraceptives.
 
CreeDo said:
I've played in both VNEA and apa league and I didn't notice that APA league members were any more rude than VNEA players. There was a lot of overlap.

Players develop "table manners" along with their shooting skill. When I played on barboxes and couldn't run a rack of 8 ball, I thought nothing about talking to my opponent or standing in front of his shot. It was like... I'm only 50/50 to run 4 balls anyway. I didn't worry about anyone ruining my focus because I hardly had any. But once I realized I could run out, every shot became more important and being distracted did too. Then I realized that I shouldn't be doing some of the things that piss me off.

It's tough to fade, but if you can ride it out, some of the bangers will start to take pool seriously and a lot of that garbage will go away. Until then, don't be afraid to get up off your shot and correct 'em. Nevermind any heckling you might get for being "anal" or whatever. It's your right and someday they'll understand.
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Creedo,

I'm with you on this one. It's not the sanctioning body's fault. If anything, it's the fault of the league operator who allows such behavior to continue. A stern warning should suffice. If a player(s) continues to disrupt league matches, the thumb is OK in my book. No one or two players or teams are invaluable to a league. They go, others will fill the void. Hopefully better mannered.

Although I've never played APA, I have substituted in a TAP league in Vegas. Same concept, better executed from what I've seen, read and heard. Other leagues I've played in, ACS, BCAPL, USAPL and a short stint in the VNEA. My favorite? BCAPL by far. Best players. Best rules. For pool players that is.

My path to "enlightenment" kind of paralled yours. It took me way too many years though. It's a strange feeling to watch other players doing their shtick. You say nothing and they continue. You say something and they act as if it is their God given right to disrupt a match. The more alcohol they consume, the worse it gets. In the end though, it is BAR pool. The drinking and socializing, not the pool, is the primary reason some of those folks are there. And I say folks because some of the gals I've played in a league with over the years are every bit as bad as the guys.

Lyn
 
one of the biggest a**hol*es i know only plays in bca. twice i've almost thrown hands with him. do*ches are everywhere. you just have to learn to avoid them.
 
I played APA for 4 weeks before quitting over some problems with my captain which I won't go into.

The general level of play was very low compared to a couple in-house leagues I also play on, but there didn't seem to be much of what you mentioned. I even had the entire opposing team applaud my performance after I smoked one of their players 5 straight. I can't say I've ever seen that before.



Bola Ocho said:
People who cheer when the opponent scratches or misses the 8-ball, or scratches on the 8-ball are scumbags. That also includes cheering unlucky rolls as they happen. "Go ball go" kind of stuff.

To them, anything that occurs that has a perceived benefit to them or their player is something to be cheered.

Like many of you, I believe in applauding only the intended success of a player - not their mistakes or blunders. I never applauded slop shots, lucky safes, or anything like that. I never cared how lucky or good my player made out because of an opponent's disaster. They don't get credit for it. One small exception. If it was an intentional safe that earned BIH, the player might get a "good safe" credit. But nothing loud or obnoxious.
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Damn does this drive me crazy. I actually had to walk out on a match one night when my opponent, who I also consider a friend, gave out a loud "YES!" complete with fist pump when my cue ball fell into the side pocket. I had to leave or I was going to say something I would've regretted later on.

The only thing I focus on during the night is how I'm playing. If I’m winning, why am I winning? Am I beating him or am I just getting extra chances because of his mistakes? If I’m losing I do the same analysis, am I making mistakes that are giving up extra chances or am I just not able to play well enough to beat this guy?

I hate feeling like I got away with one where I have 2 or more good chances to run out and screw it up while lucking into a safe. Of course I'll take those wins, I just won't be happy about it:D.
 
You get this in any atmostphere, really. A local open tournament that just played here had two players match up for a second time on the loser's side. The same person jumped out to a big lead, but this time the trailing player began belly-aching (sharking). He got in the other player's head and won the match to advance. I've seen it from some guys at the US Open as well.

Regardless of the locale, you see this. It may not be purposefull, but the end result is the same. It is bad sportsmanship.

I will admit to playing a very tight match and giving a slightly audible "yes!" when my opponent missed to get me back in it, but it was not intentionally vocal, just my excitement at getting back to the table. I followed this up with a mild apology when I realized it had slipped out of my mouth.

The lower the skill of the group (APA is a beginner league more than some), the more you will see this in its less polished form (read drunk).
 
I think the below statement says it all...APA league is called a "Tavern" league, not a stemware "Cocktail" lounge.
You DO get some players that ARE of low class and they DO tend to stand out with their conduct and language. Having played APA league over 7 years I've seen the conduct, however MOST APA players simply enjoy pool and their friends in the league and TRY to conduct themselves accordingly. IMHO


"It's because the APA gets many of its players from the bars/banger world of pool. Lot of trashy people with no sense of etiquette or sportsmanship to go along with their lack of hygiene.
To them, anything that occurs that has a perceived benefit to them or their player is something to be cheered."
 
As I've only played APA, I have nothing to compare it to. I have seen some of the stuff you speak of, and it bothered me from the get-go. Poor sportsmanship is poor sportsmanship. Whether in pool, or anywhere else. I coach Little League, think I see some of it there?

Fortunately, in our league we don't have a ton of it. It's happened to me before, teammates of my opponent cheering when I scratched or just missed outright. Other games that I wasn't involved in, too. I don't recall my teammates doing much of it, other than in fun with a player that we all know really well, just friendly banter back and forth. Most players are pretty supportive of one another even between teams. We've all gotten to know each other pretty well, which is part of why I like League night so much. Lots of friends, on my team and on my opponents teams.

I know that when I win because my opponent scratches on the eight or something similar, as we're shaking hands I always tell them "sorry this had to end like that" or something similar. Just the way I handle things, I guess.

I'm pretty sure the poor sports are everywhere. That's too bad.
 
beleary said:
For a small number of others, and the reason for this thread, it was an opportunity for them to bring over their bad habits, bad attitudes, poor sportsmanship and unprofessional approach to the game. Some examples would be: cheering and high-fives when their opponent would scratch on an 8-ball, standing in front of their opponent's shots, taking to their opponent when they were over or executing a shot, waving their stick around in the peripheral vision of the other player, and other kinds of 'sharking' performances.

Frankly, if it wasn't for the format of playing all your games at once and then sitting for the rest of the night, I might consider it myself. Oh, and that APA attitude.


My question to the forum for those of you who have played APA and for those of you who only play VNEA/BCA or other leagues is whether you've observed this same kind of behavior from APA players who come into these higher skill level leagues. My personal observations can be clouded based upon only seeing a half a dozen APA leagues around the area. Maybe things are different elsewhere. I'd like to think so.
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beleary,
I have observed ALL of the "sharking" performances you mentioned in your post, AND some. It is why I no longer play in the APA. I do not believe that this condition exists in all areas as I'm sure there are many APA leagues across this great country that do not have these problems. FWIW, I believe the APA is good for pool "as a whole". If used correctly and honestly, the system will work.

I think the problem is that the APA gets so many NEW people into the game that have never had the chance to experience the "old-school" ways of pool etiquette. They simply do not know HOW to act in a poolhall/match. BCA players are usually more experienced due to many of them being bred in a poolhall instead of a bar. I'm betting that in 5-10 years from now, BCA leagues will have the same kind of etiquette/attitude problems as the APA does. If/when it crawls its way into the BCA league I now shoot in, I will quit it too and play only in tournaments (where there are USUALLY rules/enforcement against sharking moves).

But, in short, to answer to your last couple of sentences in your post I would say that things are different in other areas, just not MY area :(.

Maniac
 
Question

I just have one little question, and I hope this question does not come off poorly -

If you don't like to play where you have to fade the antics of the crowd - where are you playing?

Perhaps smaller towns still have pool rooms where ettiquite is respected - but it's been a while since I've been in one.....
 
DWoods6354 said:
I just have one little question, and I hope this question does not come off poorly -

If you don't like to play where you have to fade the antics of the crowd - where are you playing?

Perhaps smaller towns still have pool rooms where ettiquite is respected - but it's been a while since I've been in one.....
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I have had very good luck in the Dallas pool rooms I have played. I have nothing but problems in the Lewisville "rooms" when playing APA. That is the reason I am dropping APA after this session. I need to play around serious folks and not a bunch of uppity drunks.
 
Scott Lee said:
justadub...tap, tap, tap! You sometimes even see 'poor sportsmanship' behavior from the Little League parents! :eek::(

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Believe me when I say, being called a "Little League Parent" is akin to being called an "APA Player. Or a "banger". It develops at Little League age, and isn't exclusive to baseball. Hockey and Football generate these attitudes as well. If you don't have kids, or haven't had kids that age in some time, you have no idea. It only gets worse as those kids get older, and school sports are the worst political mess you can ever get involved with. The old saying is true... it's not what you know, but who you know."

And just like in our pool experiences, not all parents of kids in those programs act poorly. But there sure are enough so that it stands out in your mind.

I expect if we all do a bit of self-examination, we'll find plenty of instances that compare. Politics, religion, professional sports... people of all walks of life seem to lose persepective and tact quite easily.

But to the original post... It sucks playing pool when the people around you don't give a damn. It should be fun. And it should be fun for all involved.
 
justadub said:
It only gets worse as those kids get older, and school sports are the worst political mess you can ever get involved with. The old saying is true... it's not what you know, but who you know."
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HA, reminds me of the time a police detective's son was trying to steal home, he was so out it shouldn't have been debatable. Even the kid said he was out. The police chief called him safe.
 
I used to think the APA was made up of a bunch of rowdy, drunken ball-bangers, but having been affiliated with our local APA league for over a year now, I can see that my perception was all wrong. The APA does nothing officially or unofficially, on a local or national level, to either encourage or condone poor sportsmanship. On the contrary, they do everything they can to discourage such behavior. However, there are - and always will be - poor sports in EVERY league, and since the APA has the largest membership out there, they probably have the largest number of poor sports. But the ratio of poor sports to good sports is most likely about the same for all leagues (once new players get past the "uneducated beginner" stage, that is).

Roger
 
The last APA session I played there was a new team. The player that I played against was a real winner. He would beg and cheer for a scratch, high five everyone on his team if I missed. Jump up and look to see if I hooked myself and would cheer for bad rolls, I made a 8 out of turn and he cheered and clapped his hands. After the match ( I did win) I said to him that he is a good player but has no class and that it is poor sportsmanship to act the way that he does. He said that he can't help it because he is from Kentucky and that is the way that they act there and I just don't understand the people from the south. I told him that he was full of it because a few players on our team and others are from the south and I haven't seen anyone act like that at the Derby either. That was the only time that I ever seen him because I dropped from the league when that session was over.
 
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