APA Question -- What do you think? Not a sandbagging issue!

[frankncali]

Sorry if the APA bashers were waiting for a "APA sucks for sandbagging" post.

Here is my question and anyone can feel free to answer even if they aren't in the APA.

Does coaching and helping actually hurt player as well as help them??

I have been wondering if my helping players on my team with timeouts and
shot strategy between shots has been hurting them. Does it keep them from thinking and actually learning.
I think "pool players" will generally take the info and process it but what about the majority of APA "people who play pool".

I have been handson with my coaching and at times have came to the conclusion that some of the players have just quit thinking and playing the game. They are either prepared for myself to call a timeout or for me to show them something.
Also when helping and something does not work out exactly like the plan they seem to fail to realize this and most of the times never re-evaluate the setup.

Just curious. I never thought that getting help could hurt someone but now I am not sure. If it makes the computer think that they play better than they are and they become a higher SL due to that then it could be a problem.

 

[curlyscues]

Sorry if the APA bashers were waiting for a "APA sucks for sandbagging" post.

Here is my question and anyone can feel free to answer even if they aren't in the APA.

Does coaching and helping actually hurt player as well as help them??

I have been wondering if my helping players on my team with timeouts and
shot strategy between shots has been hurting them. Does it keep them from thinking and actually learning.
I think "pool players" will generally take the info and process it but what about the majority of APA "people who play pool".

I have been handson with my coaching and at times have came to the conclusion that some of the players have just quit thinking and playing the game. They are either prepared for myself to call a timeout or for me to show them something.
Also when helping and something does not work out exactly like the plan they seem to fail to realize this and most of the times never re-evaluate the setup.

Just curious. I never thought that getting help could hurt someone but now I am not sure. If it makes the computer think that they play better than they are and they become a higher SL due to that then it could be a problem.

giving minor instructions during time outs and between shots doesn't hurt in the long run as long as you think they trust your judgement and they can pull off the shots you give them.

though you might want to give them more than one choice if possible to help get them more personally involved in the learning of what to do in various situations.

when you only tell them exactlly what you would do only, this could have a negative affect by being out of thier compfort zone causing them to miss the shot or shapes and and they may hesitate to seek your adivise in the future.

M.C.

 

[Flex]

Sorry if the APA bashers were waiting for a "APA sucks for sandbagging" post.

Here is my question and anyone can feel free to answer even if they aren't in the APA.

Does coaching and helping actually hurt player as well as help them??

I have been wondering if my helping players on my team with timeouts and
shot strategy between shots has been hurting them. Does it keep them from thinking and actually learning.
I think "pool players" will generally take the info and process it but what about the majority of APA "people who play pool".

I have been handson with my coaching and at times have came to the conclusion that some of the players have just quit thinking and playing the game. They are either prepared for myself to call a timeout or for me to show them something.
Also when helping and something does not work out exactly like the plan they seem to fail to realize this and most of the times never re-evaluate the setup.

Just curious. I never thought that getting help could hurt someone but now I am not sure. If it makes the computer think that they play better than they are and they become a higher SL due to that then it could be a problem.

I often play doubles with friends who also play in the APA, and I know their games pretty well, how they tend to think and so on. Believe me, when my partner offers unsolicited advice about how to do something on the table, or strategy, or whatever, especially when I've already made up my mind about my course of action, things can sometimes get heated, at least with a few of them. The better ones can sense when something really isn't a good idea and more or less read my mind; their suggestions often are excellent. However, it's those who may be rather good players but not very good in giving suggestions or give suggestions that are no good. Once the no good suggestion comes out of their mouth, and they are insistent, my choices in the situation are more limited. If I choose to do something different than they suggest, and it doesn't work out, not because the suggestion was inherently a bad one, but because the suggestion might have a very low chance of being executed well, and as a result of the poorly executed suggestion we end up losing, it can really create bad karma. After several failed initiatives like this, it's quite reasonable, IMHO, to let the suggester know that his unsolicited suggestions are often not all that helpful. What happens is players think differently about complex situations, and changing one's thought process in the middle of a tight situation can help, but can hurt, too.

If I see something and want to test the water and provide a suggestion, I may start with an innocent question like, "Would you like an idea?" Even that question can mess with their minds so much that they end up dogging what they wanted to do in the first place. Thus, usually, it's best to stay quiet.

My two cents worth.

Flex

 

[ShootingArts]

Coaching and teaching

There is a fine line between coaching or teaching and doing all of the brain work for them. Taken to an extreme, I dated a girl who was a fantastic shot. All she knew was to shoot slow, medium, or rarely hard, center ball or high, and aim at my finger regardless of what was in the way. She had a clean natural stroke and we won a lot of bets playing with these conditions from some pretty good players. She even made tough bank shots when she didn't have a clue where the ball was going herself. She learned to trust aiming at my finger and letting the rest happen. Obviously, she wasn't learning to think however. When she played me, I always made her think for herself and only when she was very obviously getting herself into a mess did I interrupt her.

As an APA coach, I think you have to be somewhere in between those two extremes. Too much advice and you take your players out of their game. My girlfriend wasn't playing her game when I was showing her every shot, she was just an automation shooting my shots for me.

Hu

Sorry if the APA bashers were waiting for a "APA sucks for sandbagging" post.

Here is my question and anyone can feel free to answer even if they aren't in the APA.

Does coaching and helping actually hurt player as well as help them??

I have been wondering if my helping players on my team with timeouts and
shot strategy between shots has been hurting them. Does it keep them from thinking and actually learning.
I think "pool players" will generally take the info and process it but what about the majority of APA "people who play pool".

I have been handson with my coaching and at times have came to the conclusion that some of the players have just quit thinking and playing the game. They are either prepared for myself to call a timeout or for me to show them something.
Also when helping and something does not work out exactly like the plan they seem to fail to realize this and most of the times never re-evaluate the setup.

Just curious. I never thought that getting help could hurt someone but now I am not sure. If it makes the computer think that they play better than they are and they become a higher SL due to that then it could be a problem.

 

[FLICKit]

I also find it's often useful to briefly check in at the onset of the timeout and ask the player, what option they would choose to shoot. You can be surprised at times to learn that they really are thinking the right shot. Plus, add in the fact that there are times when a couple of shot options have equal merit. Thus, if they naturally select one of those options on their own, they are often likely to execute it, because developing players can often execute certain shots better than others.

For example, a high level player may see an excellent slight draw, lockup safety. Yet the developing player would have no finesse and ability to execute it.

So the coaching style of providing the player a couple of options is also quite effective. The act of having the player make that simple choice is also powerful and still requires a level of thinking from them.

This contributes to the coach/player not succumbing to the pitfall that the Original Poster relayed.

 

[Da Poet]

I'm not sure how exactly you're relating the coaching to the SL rating of a player, but I do know that whether you mark a coach on the scoresheet or not has no effect on the SL of the player, if that was part of the question.

I agree though that there is a fine line between assistance and distraction. The player has to want the assistance and sometimes you have to slowly build up a sense of openmindedness to this part of league play. As a captain, you simply have to have a sense of humor, be patient and wait for this to happen.

I think it's also important to ask the players how they want to use their coaches. Let them be in control. Some players will say jump in anytime, others will say that they do better without any, but it is best to ask them first.

The main reason that I believe coaches called by the captain often backfire is that often the player deep inside is interpreting the decision as a lack of confidence in their ability. I believe it's better to err on the side of caution, let the player decide what they want to do, and if it's the wrong decision and a terrible result, when the dust settles, ask them if you should have stopped them. More often than not they will say yes and now you have a clearer understanding of when you can stop the player without messing with their head.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

The solution to that is when you are telling them what to do, tell them why, and later on after they are done playing their match, explain to them the physics involved, and every intricate detail into the shot. It doesn't hurt to quiz them when you call a timeout. Ask them first what they think is the correct shot, and politely tell them why that's wrong (if they are) and why the shot you are showing them is right.

 

[Skess]

I've been coaching teams for 10 years now. And it took me awhile to find a style that I can use with just about anyone.

When I go to the table, I first ask the player what they were thinking. That usually gives me a pretty good idea of where their head is. From there, I either offer support/tips toward their idea or offer an alternative that's within their ability. In the end, I leave the shot choice up to them.

The thing about coaching that can be frustrating is that everybody will get something different out of it.

I have players that are career 3/4's in league play and will not recognize the same shot 2 games in a row. And they'll give you a look after a failed shot because you told them something in a TO. What they don't realize is that they didn't actually hit the shot we talked about. Then I have other players that go up 1 or 2 speeds very quickly because they listen/absorb what you give them and get better because of it.

I try not to be too intrusive with TO's, mainly calling them when I see a game about to be decided with a shot or safe. It really comes down to the person who's shooting.

 

[Big Perm]

First, our team doesn't call to many timeouts....maybe 2-5 an entire night...

Second, I'll only force one when I see one of our 2-4's using the all-popular "I have to hit everything just below the center of the cueball so it will quickly scratch in the nearest corner pocket trick".....that, or when they have ball in hand, 1-2 balls on the table then the 8, and set up their first shot straight-in so they have no hope of ever getting leave on the next ball or the 8-ball....

Regardless of my very gentle approach at coaching (and believe you me, we call few timeouts and I rarely give advice unless asked), they refuse to stop hitting angled shots below the center of the cue, and they still set-up straight-in shots with ball in hand....actually, it's pretty obvious they don't want to improve, but I don't have to worry about their rank going up, and we still enjoy the social part of the evening, so it's all good ;-)

To your point/question, I don't think timeouts are a bad thing unless your team is not receptive.....they maybe actually learning more than you think....you should ask them...

 

[Jack Flanagan]

only have one 'coachable' player on my APA 9ball team, so I guess I'm blessed and cursed at the same time. most shoot better than I and one of them will do the opposite of what I suggest.

as for me, I don't like interruptions (timeouts) in my game. if I'm already down on a shot, don't call for a time out. it breaks up what little rhythm that I have and usually costs me that game......JMHO

 

[Southpaw]

The solution to that is when you are telling them what to do, tell them why, and later on after they are done playing their match, explain to them the physics involved, and every intricate detail into the shot. It doesn't hurt to quiz them when you call a timeout. Ask them first what they think is the correct shot, and politely tell them why that's wrong (if they are) and why the shot you are showing them is right.

This is exactly right. Explaining why they should shoot the shot a certain way is as much as or even more important than the shot itself. This way, when they are faced with similar situations, they can recall your advice and learn from it. JMO.

Southpaw

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Well, for starters, you simply don't get enough coaching opportunities to allow a player to stop thinking. However, you must understand that 98% of all APA players are beginners in the grand scheme of things and most will not improve simply because they lack the means or desire to do so.

A coach's job is to motivate his players, make them feel good about playing and to offer shot-advice when needed - not just so they can win the night but to further interest them in learning.

Without coaching I can see how the stuff between the ears might actually dust itself off but I can also see players quickly losing interest.

 

[suckershot]

Well, for starters, you simply don't get enough coaching opportunities to allow a player to stop thinking. However, you must understand that 98% of all APA players are beginners in the grand scheme of things and most will not improve simply because they lack the means or desire to do so.

A coach's job is to motivate his players, make them feel good about playing and to offer shot-advice when needed - not just so they can win the night but to further interest them in learning.

Without coaching I can see how the stuff between the ears might actually dust itself off but I can also see players quickly losing interest.

All of this is really spot on.

I really see now that a lot of APA players really just want a night out. Most of them don't really seem like they want to get better. Case in point...the poolhall we represent has many, many APA teams that play out of it, and for those teams, the poolhall provides free practice time...for regular players from open til 3 pm on weekends, and from open til 7 pm everyday for captains. Yet there are only a few people who take advantage of this. Maybe 10-15 at most.

As a captain, you have to accept that some people want to do well and get better, and some just want to have a social night out.

I think you need to coach if the player wants it or seems to want it. If it doesn't seem like they care much, then there isn't really a good reason to give a time out. For myself, I told my players I won't call a timeout unless it really looks like they're stuck. If they want one, they should ask for it.

 

[MrLucky]

What I have found on my team...

Sorry if the APA bashers were waiting for a "APA sucks for sandbagging" post.

Here is my question and anyone can feel free to answer even if they aren't in the APA.

Does coaching and helping actually hurt player as well as help them??

I have been wondering if my helping players on my team with timeouts and
shot strategy between shots has been hurting them. Does it keep them from thinking and actually learning.
I think "pool players" will generally take the info and process it but what about the majority of APA "people who play pool".

I have been handson with my coaching and at times have came to the conclusion that some of the players have just quit thinking and playing the game. They are either prepared for myself to call a timeout or for me to show them something.
Also when helping and something does not work out exactly like the plan they seem to fail to realize this and most of the times never re-evaluate the setup.

Just curious. I never thought that getting help could hurt someone but now I am not sure. If it makes the computer think that they play better than they are and they become a higher SL due to that then it could be a problem.

I have learned to have drill practices with my lower handicap players based on their individual needs ! ie: one sl3 lady needs speed control so we worked on that! since trying to tell someone to slow roll or hit a ball to the cushion for a safety just doesnt work if they have no idea how hard to hit the ball to do it and then they just get frustrated so the drills prepare them for time outs !

 

[frankncali]

Poet

What I mean is that if I call a time out or tell the player something on the sideline before they shoot and then they execute it then in reality its not them doing the thinking. The SL is based on what their "normal game" is
supposed to be. Without the timeout they might have had an extra couple of innings or lost a match/game. That effects their SL.

If you have ever played APA pool then you know that many people make the same mistakes over and over. They just dont see what to do.

I believe that I have some players that are rated higher than what their normal level is simply due to coaching and helping with strategy between shots.


I agree with your assessment of why many TOs dont work but would add that most of the shots that the player would be attempting without the TO would not work either. Now because a TO has been called you are the
scapegoat.

I'm not sure how exactly you're relating the coaching to the SL rating of a player, but I do know that whether you mark a coach on the scoresheet or not has no effect on the SL of the player, if that was part of the question.

I agree though that there is a fine line between assistance and distraction. The player has to want the assistance and sometimes you have to slowly build up a sense of openmindedness to this part of league play. As a captain, you simply have to have a sense of humor, be patient and wait for this to happen.

I think it's also important to ask the players how they want to use their coaches. Let them be in control. Some players will say jump in anytime, others will say that they do better without any, but it is best to ask them first.

The main reason that I believe coaches called by the captain often backfire is that often the player deep inside is interpreting the decision as a lack of confidence in their ability. I believe it's better to err on the side of caution, let the player decide what they want to do, and if it's the wrong decision and a terrible result, when the dust settles, ask them if you should have stopped them. More often than not they will say yes and now you have a clearer understanding of when you can stop the player without messing with their head.

 

[frankncali]

Well, for starters, you simply don't get enough coaching opportunities to allow a player to stop thinking. However, you must understand that 98% of all APA players are beginners in the grand scheme of things and most will not improve simply because they lack the means or desire to do so.

A coach's job is to motivate his players, make them feel good about playing and to offer shot-advice when needed - not just so they can win the night but to further interest them in learning.

Without coaching I can see how the stuff between the ears might actually dust itself off but I can also see players quickly losing interest.

Jude while I agree and disagree with you I can see your point.

I am going to try some new coaching ideas for this next year and see how it goes. I have a hard time just backing all the way off and letting someone do something very wrong and lose. I really want them to win and cant understand why they would be playing if they didnt want to win.

I have tried many different approaches with players and have simply developed 2 categories for APA players.... there are "pool players" - these guys and girls are willing to listen AND try and put it into use. APA night is usually not their only pool existence. Then there are "people that
play pool". This group is a little bigger and more diverse. People can play on several league nights and usually would "like" to play better but really dont want to put much effort into it. Most usually think that the good players have just been playing longer.

Thanks for your thoughts... I am going to try and let the players fail a little bit more and see how that effects them and their learning/desire to learn.

 

[frankncali]

only have one 'coachable' player on my APA 9ball team, so I guess I'm blessed and cursed at the same time. most shoot better than I and one of them will do the opposite of what I suggest.

as for me, I don't like interruptions (timeouts) in my game. if I'm already down on a shot, don't call for a time out. it breaks up what little rhythm that I have and usually costs me that game......JMHO

I seem to be very different than you and most others. If I could I would
ask about every shot I take. I always feel like I can learn something from someone else and often get way different answers than what I thought.

I often have wished I had an "ask Efren" button on the table.

Even as a SL 7/9 in the APA I will often call TOs on myself just to gather my thoughts and see what someone else thinks. They are always weaker players than myself but it seems to help me stay focused and sure about my shot.

 

[CreeDo]

Coaching is one of the best things about the APA and I wish other leagues had it. It's very satisfying to see your advice go well and to watch the little light bulb go off in their head when they see their(your) plan work. It's equally painful to helplessly watch a player pass up a guaranteed winning hook just to take a flyer at something.

I don't think it makes a player learn slower as long as you explain to them the reasoning behind the shot, and why some other 'first instinct' shots are not as good. Some stuff can't get learned just by doing it the wrong way, and trying to painstakingly recreate the situation later will not help them as much as learning with the situation right in front of them. Also, some of them leave right away and the only time they put into actively learning is when they're being coached.

I do hate to see a player get bad coaching though (especially when the bad advice comes out well, because it reinforces it)... but that's a danger of teaching in general, not just league coaching.

 

[MrLucky]

not that different ...

I seem to be very different than you and most others. If I could I would
ask about every shot I take. I always feel like I can learn something from someone else and often get way different answers than what I thought.

I often have wished I had an "ask Efren" button on the table.

Even as a SL 7/9 in the APA I will often call TOs on myself just to gather my thoughts and see what someone else thinks. They are always weaker players than myself but it seems to help me stay focused and sure about my shot.

I too have the same beliefs .. just recently I had instructions from Scott Lee and some of my players could not believe that "I the coach ! and Captain who had played for over 40 years and having a world famous uncle as a teacher " Would actually pay someone to give me lessons!!!! I told them ... 'when you start thinking you know everything ! that's when you really know nothing!'

 

[MrLucky]

Excellent Advice !

The solution to that is when you are telling them what to do, tell them why, and later on after they are done playing their match, explain to them the physics involved, and every intricate detail into the shot. It doesn't hurt to quiz them when you call a timeout. Ask them first what they think is the correct shot, and politely tell them why that's wrong (if they are) and why the shot you are showing them is right.

In order to Coach effectively the coach has to leave his or hers EGO out of it and their brains fully engaged!! Never try to tell the player to just "do it my way" think about the individuals personality and most importantly skill abilities ! the "right shot" for me isn't always the right way to go for my player ! I always when calling one ask the player ...."let's just talk about it, what are you thinking?" then if they are on the right path I will give them a "good way to go!" encouragement and endorsement then just discuss lightly what english / speed etcetera is needed to accomplish the intended result!