appreciate the heads up that my reading comprehension went out the window while i was reading his post.:thumbup:
APA regional decision, What's the call?
- Thread starter dabarbr
- Start date
appreciate the heads up that my reading comprehension went out the window while i was reading his post.:thumbup:
The APA Tournament Director's word is final, so at this point whichever player won the replay will be able to compete in Vegas. If the 3 won only by way of replaying that questioned game, though, there may be an opportunity for the 2. The TD's call is in clear discord with the League's game rules. There is no scenario in which the three should have been allowed to make another shot, and no scenario in which the game should not have been concluded after that scratch on the 8 (any more than if two baseball teams end the 9th inning with a score of 7-4 lined up to play a 10th - it would be invalid as no additional play can occur at the conclusion of the game).
If the 3 ended up winning the replay and consequently the trip to Vegas in the 2's stead, the 2 has a very strong case to appeal to the APA National Tournament Director to be afforded the opportunity to compete at nationals, inclusive of all of the travel assistance/hotel compensation that would normally have been afforded her. Of course, the tournament is in the beginning of May, so time is short - she should pursue such an appeal immediately.
Edit - on looking back at the OP, the argument cannot be made that the 2 missed the opportunity to call the foul, even if it did not stand and execute the end of the game on its own, as her shot cannot be shown as deliberate continuation of the game. Had she made her final ball before the 8 and then marked a pocket, it might be be strained to argue in favor of a replay, but as she did not, and did not allow the 3 to take another shot before she commented on the loss, there is absolutely no sustainable logic under the rules of the game by which the TD's call would be upheld on appeal. The 3 would not be removed from participation in the national tournament as it has already been granted, but the 2 would certainly gain entry.
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Every system has flaws, but this situation was neither a system flaw nor a rule that left anything to interpretation. It arose from complete ignorance on part of the TD of a very clearly defined rule.
I'll agree that there are some other rules that are less clearly defined. But regardless of what any of our personal opinions may be of APA, it does foster a tremendous amount of awareness for the sport and an easy avenue to participation for beginning players.
Of course you would and if everyone was here saying it was a good call you would be arguing the opposite. Again, you do not play APA and do not know the rules thus should not be commenting.
The game was a loss the instant she scratched. Everything that happened after that is immaterial.
If this was actually a hill hill game as the OP said, then the person that scratched should have immediately gotten up and congratulated the winner before heading to the bathroom and it was poor sportsmanship to do otherwise.
In addition, if this game was for Vegas, as the OP claims, there would have been APA officials watching it to begin with.
Thats all fine and dandy Bob, but that is not the APA rule. You can shoot the wrong ball and make it. If you opponent does not inform you of so and you realize it and shoot your correct ball in the next shoot they can't call the foul. If you shoot all of the wrong balls in and then shoot the 8 ball in or even make contact with the 8 ball attempting to shoot it in, your opponent lost the ability to call a foul as that "suit" has become yours.
Well, yes, that's true. I was discussing the larger question of what should happen when players are playing a game that is not the game they are supposed to be playing. I did not intend to be discussing the APA situation in particular.
I think we can all agree that the APA rules are goofy, unclear and broken.
what is your opinion of the following situation ?
the game is points based 8 ball. you are at the table and your team needs only one point to win the nights match ups. you do not have a clear shot at any of your balls so you elect to hit your opponents ball and knocking your hanger in.
your point counts although you made an illegal hit and as a result your team wins. that is the goofiest league rule i have ever heard of and let me give you a hint...it aint apa i am talking about.
If the goal is to get your balls off the table and that play gives you the needed point, then I think it's fine. Similarly at nine ball, if you are totally hooked on the two ball and the nine is hanging in the pocket, it's fine to play the 5-9 combo. There is a clear penalty for the foul but it's worth it.
On a side note, I'm not a fan of points-based 8 ball and 9 ball.
This is not an "apa rule" it is just clarified in the apa rule book. Each shot of the wrong group is a foul, it just states you can let your opponent keep fouling until you decide to call a foul. If you wait until the last ball then yes, you have bih on the eight.
Apa is not and never has been about sportsmanship.
Apa is not and never has been about sportsmanship.
First off, I always hate that scenario. If I start shooting the wrong balls and then realize it, I'll call the foul on myself; likewise, if I can tell an opponent is about to shoot the wrong ball, I'll tell them. That's just about good sportsmanship. Letting someone do all the work for you then stealing the win is just cheap.
Regardless, that APA rule simply isn't applicable here. There was no opportunity for continuation as the 3 did not have the opportunity for a follow-up shot wherein the scratch went unacknowledged. That the 2 took a shot is immaterial. She declared that the game had been over as a result of the scratch. If she had taken that shot, then on the 3's return to the table allowed them to mark a pocket and shoot again, your exception might possibly be construed as applicable, but for the purposes of the scenario of the OP, it isn't.
Any league is about sportsmanship in intent, and strives to make rules that will support it. It's the players who choose to seek loopholes by adhering to the letter, but not the spirit, of the laws - or who outright hide their offenses - who fail the league. I'd challenge you to name any league of decent size where its members cannot cite numerous instances of poor sportsmanship on the part of its players.
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Rider,
A few years ago in a local BCA pool league match for the "free" trip to Vegas, we needed one ball to win. Our player looked at the situation and hit our opponents ball into one of ours making the ball. Sure it was an illegal hit but as all balls down stay down (except the eight), we won the trip thanks to a quick thinking player. Not knowing the applicable rules is a fundimental flaw in many players game. You may consider it a goofy rule but, explain to me your remedy!
So you break a rack and three balls go in. Did you call any of the three in advance? Did you mark the pocket if the eight ball was one of the balls made? If you legally shoot one of your balls in the pocket and another of your ball set also drops, should that ball be respotted? A can of worms that should not be opened Rider.
We may not agree with the all the rules in use. The people who created the rules set gave each a thorough going over and the consensus ruled. Leave well enough alone.
Lyn
I've shot that many times. If we need one point to the win the round, I knock in my hanger and give him bih. It's usually not till afterwards they realize they lost with my hanger.
The goal is to win. No diff that taking an intentional foul in 1P to get out of an extreme jam. If I have a game winning hanger, and the other guy does NOT run out, that's on him, not me
not trying to start nothing. :wink:
my remarks were in reply to bob jewetts statement regarding goofy rules in apa. just letting him know apa is not the only league with goofy rules. :grin-square:
although i have a record for defending apa quite a bit on here i have played bcapl and am pretty familiar with their rules.
not bashing bcapl at all. ..as a matter of fact i enjoy playing all leagues available in my area. they all are great for the sport...just pointing out they all have their quirks.
actually i get tired of hearing the same ole crap and some times i gotta say so.
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I've shot that many times. If we need one point to the win the round, I knock in my hanger and give him bih. It's usually not till afterwards they realize they lost with my hanger.
The goal is to win. No diff that taking an intentional foul in 1P to get out of an extreme jam. If I have a game winning hanger, and the other guy does NOT run out, that's on him, not me
What league is this in?
Why is that not counted as a miss or a safe but a made ball?
If someone did that against me I'd mark it as a safe.
Or do the balls that stay down count for your inning no matter if it was an illegal shot or a safe?
I know in TAP they do not mark a safe as a made ball, but they also don't count ball count for the win, only games won. The balls you made are only there for handicap ratings.
USAPL rule is: Game Scoring
The winner of each game will always receive “14” points (No matter how the game was won), and the loser of the game will receive one point for every ball legally pocketed, no matter how they were pocketed. (Shooter does not have to call pocket)
So that ball you made with the other ball is not "legally" pocketed, therefore does not count, so this is not the USAPL league.
I assume he is talking about bcapl. You are credited with all balls of your suit no matter how they were pocketed.
A few examples.
Your opponent breaks and makes one of each suit. He elects the stripe. You are credited with the solid
You or your opponent knocks one of your balls off the table. It's pocketed and you are credited with that point.
You have a hanged and you'd opponent bits his ball attempting to have his follow yours in. You are credited with your ball pocketed by your opponent
A few examples.
Your opponent breaks and makes one of each suit. He elects the stripe. You are credited with the solid
You or your opponent knocks one of your balls off the table. It's pocketed and you are credited with that point.
You have a hanged and you'd opponent bits his ball attempting to have his follow yours in. You are credited with your ball pocketed by your opponent
Odd, both USAPL and BCAPL are part of CSI, in USAPL it states you only get credit for legally pocketed balls. Now if your opponent makes the foul and pockets your ball, I can see you getting credit for it, but if you foul and make your ball, I don't see why that would count as a legally pocketed ball. The first and third examples are both legally pocketed balls so no issues there that I can see.
They may have just made the rule were every ball that is in a pocket counts to simplify things, but then it leads to loopholes like the foul and pocket a ball thing to win, which really should not count as a point for the player. Smells too much of a bar rule.
Similar to where you play called shot but not called safe in 9 or 10 ball and someone just pockets a straight in shot but calls it in a different pocket to get an easy safe. Technically you did not pocket the ball where you called it, but it's using the rule in the way it's not intended and all the called shot tournaments and leagues I play in, if you pocket an obvious shot but call some weird pocket on it, that is not allowed. You actually have to play a safe not just pocket it and stop the ball behind something and say "well I called the other pocket so it's your turn".
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I would disagree. The only time APA rules (or just about any league's rules) are goofy, unclear or broken are when you have someone trying to skirt them. Marking the pocket is slightly goofy, but it prevents any questionable situation for the win.
For every legitimate situation you are in there is a clear rule to define how to handle it in the handbook. Players or Division reps not knowing the rules is a problem with them, not the league rules. You probably can't come up with a single situation that matters in which I can't reference a rule for. By matter I mean a foul or a win/lose situation. Anything beyond that is semantics or a sportsmanship problem unrelated to the outcome of the game that is probably not addressed in most league rules.
Agreed 100%. The single biggest flaw of the APA is that it expects the players to be good sportsman and to have integrity at all times. That is only a flaw because there are a lot of players out there that are always looking for shortcuts and to win no matter what thus they lack integrity and sportsmanship which is the spirit of all rules.