APA scenario

[KRJ]

Look, I'm not an APA referee, owner or anything. I have ZERO interest in the outcome of the OP's question nor do I really care. I'm simply telling you how the APA works.

Now, for the record, the OP didn't say she was "practicing". I'm under the assumption she didn't realize she won and I'm telling you, it's against the rules for anyone to tell her.

Regarding team play, the team is allowed to be involved in referee duties which would pretty-much eliminate all of your questions. Seriously, this is a scenario that only occurs when you have an absolute beginner who has little knowledge of the rules playing in singles matches.

really, so after the person scratched, and I walk over and congratulate the winner, you think that is a foul, and thus the woman would have lost that way as well.... nope, sorry, not true in the least...

Just a horrific call, by someone with very little pool smarts, and an all around jack ass.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The same way I can say that reminding a player to mark the pocket for the 8-Ball is not coaching. The player didn't request to be informed of the rule that they must mark the pocket, but it's not coaching to remind them of that rule, right?

This is actually a new rule. When did this go into effect? 2011?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

really, so after the person scratched, and I walk over and congratulate the winner, you think that is a foul, and thus the woman would have lost that way as well.... nope, sorry, not true in the least...

Just a horrific call, by someone with very little pool smarts, and an all around jack ass.

I never said I think it was a foul. I'm saying it could be ruled that way. You wanna know what I think, I'll be happy to tell you.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No, you're telling everyone how you THINK the APA works. If that was my regional, I would have awarded the game to the player who didn't scratch on the 8 (assuming the issue was as simple as the OP makes it sound). If I am able to determine that the player who scratched knew at the time that it was loss of game and tried to get away with it, I would have some words for her, too. Either there was more to it or the tournament director botched the call (IMO).




No, it isn't. It's against the rules for her to receive coaching. Explaining a rule to a player is not considered coaching. In a nutshell, coaching is giving a player advice on strategy or technique. Everything else is ok.

Regarding coaching, it's impossible for a player to control what is said by spectators, many of whom they may not even know. Usually, if a spectator attempts to coach the most you can do is warn the spectator not to do it again or have them removed from the arena. Occasionally you might be able to do more. For example, if a player is on the 8, has marked the side pocket and is about to shoot when someone yells out "shoot it in the corner", then the player moves the marker and shoots the 8 in the corner, you can assess whatever the penalty is for illegal aid. I'd probably replay the game in this case. If, however, in the same situation the spectator instead yells "stay down", and the shooter stays down and pockets the 8 in the side, I would declare the shot good and deal with the spectator.

Explaining a rule *could* be coaching. There are many examples of this: "Hey, you should go grab a ref to watch this hit"...that's a gray area the way the rules are written. I think that is bad etiquette at very least. You should really stay out of a singles match. Whether you elect to get a ref or not is really part of the game. If you frequently don't have close hits watch and let your opponent get away with fouls a lot, and you are "coached" to avoid doing this...??

Likewise, say your friend is about to shoot the wrong set of balls in a singles event, and you yell out "hey you're stripes". Now in team play this isn't considered coaching, but I'd say that is not cool in singles play. In team competition, there is an understanding that you have a team behind you. In singles play there is an understanding that you don't.

If a rules discrepancy comes up, and either player asks about a rule, and you happen to know, I think the best move is to say "I am very familiar with that rule and can explain it to you both, or I can go grab a ref for you if you want."

Singles play really should be singles. If you are watching your friend, spouse, etc. you really should 1) not be sitting in the players chairs, and 2) keep quiet. Cheer all you want, but don't be discussing shots and whatever at any time. It's just bad form.

KMRUNOUT

 

[dabarbr]

This scenario was related to me for my opinion from a person that was there. He said the level 3 did shoot at the eight and hit it but did not pocket it. In doing so she scratched the cue ball into a pocket.

The TD had a room full of matches going on at the same time with different skill matches and could not be at all matches at the same time.

My contention is that once the TD verified with the level three that she did scratch while shooting at the eight he should have ruled game over. It's also possible that the level 3 knew she had lost but thought that maybe she could still survive by not saying anything. But in her defense, being a lower level player, the pressure and stress in playing a match of this magnitude can have some affect in one's judgment.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

The same way I can say that reminding a player to mark the pocket for the 8-Ball is not coaching. The player didn't request to be informed of the rule that they must mark the pocket, but it's not coaching to remind them of that rule, right?

Informing a player that they're about to shoot the wrong ball in 9-Ball, or the wrong category of balls in 8-Ball are other instances of providing a player with information not considered coaching. Probably the nearest example specifically mentioned in the book is the one that says "telling a player a foul has occurred". If you can tell them a foul occurred, certainly you should be able to tell them a foul for which the penalty is loss of game occurred.

These are all great examples from *team* play. The rulebook begins talking about advising your *teammate* about various things, then begins substituting the word "player" for "teammate". Again, inconsistent and poorly written. Someone who is not on your *team* should offer *nothing* like any of the examples you have mentioned. they need to stay out of the match. In a singles event, you do not have teammates. They should not be telling you anything. While agree the examples you offer are not coaching, I think it is very bad etiquette to offer these things up to either player in a singles match.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,

Get this: the one and only bad experience I had calling corporate (numerous other calls have been *extremely* pleasant...Nicole Dunn, Jodie Cavanaugh, Becky I think Collier? They have all been fantastic and very helpful!):

I was asking about the magic rack. I don't want to go into that topic, but the thing this particular person said to me was this "you keep asking 'what if's'...I'm not going to play the what if game. The rules are not there for all these random 'what ifs'"

I almost burst out laughing. To any rational person, the specific purpose of the rulebook is to address "what ifs". That is the whole point of the rules. The more what ifs your rulebook covers, the better and more comprehensive the rulebook is.

Personally, I would LOVE to help them revise that book. I have a pretty good command of the English language, and a good mind for legalistic arguments. I sincerely hope they care about this. I *think* they do...but maybe just don't know how to go about improving in this area.

KMRUNOUT

Yeah, what annoys me most is, it made sense when having a printed copy of the rules was most convenient. Okay, you need something that fits in everyone's pockets. With smartphones, it should be more robust. Rulings in pool (in general) can be terribly confusing at times. Add the plethora of skill levels in the APA and you've got yourself a total nightmare. Like I said, this is just the beginning. Even the section on fouls is just horrible.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

This is actually a new rule. When did this go into effect? 2011?

Jude, I've been in the league for about 20 years, and that has always been the rule as far as I knew. I must have heard the phrase "mark it up" about 10 thousand times in my time in the APA. It is pretty much a standard and pervasive congratulations for getting to that point to win the game.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude, I've been in the league for about 20 years, and that has always been the rule as far as I knew. I must have heard the phrase "mark it up" about 10 thousand times in my time in the APA. It is pretty much a standard and pervasive congratulations for getting to that point to win the game.

KMRUNOUT

Yes but in singles play, there is a strict no-talking rule. At least, that's how it plays around here and in Vegas but it's been a couple years since I was active.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Yes but in singles play, there is a strict no-talking rule. At least, that's how it plays around here and in Vegas but it's been a couple years since I was active.

Yup. You're right. Also, I think it is a bit odd to have different rules in Vegas than in weekly play. I suppose since it is controlled tournament conditions with refs on hand...I guess I can see the difference.

I agree completely though...singles should be singles. If I feel like I'm playing a guy or girls "team" in a singles event, that is just not cool. By all means, cheer like crazy if they win a game or make a nice shot or whatever. Otherwise, watch the match with your eyes not your mouth.

KMRUNOUT

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Yeah, what annoys me most is, it made sense when having a printed copy of the rules was most convenient. Okay, you need something that fits in everyone's pockets. With smartphones, it should be more robust. Rulings in pool (in general) can be terribly confusing at times. Add the plethora of skill levels in the APA and you've got yourself a total nightmare. Like I said, this is just the beginning. Even the section on fouls is just horrible.

I don't know but this seems clear as day to me:

http://www.poolplayers.com/documents/2012-Team-Manual-FINAL_LR.PDF

When playing the 8-ball, you scratch. You lose whether or not you
pocket the 8-ball.

BTW- you can easily download the PDF to a smartphone. I reference it on occasion

 

[CreeDo]

I'm of the opinion that the game is over and you don't need both parties to agree and realize the end of the game, to make it "stick".
It's over regardless of whether both players understand and accept it.
As long as both players agree someone scratched on the 8, that's good enough.
"When" is irrelevant, the person who scratched lost & it doesn't matter if they play 20 useless 'imaginary innings' after.

Supporting evidence: in APA 9 ball it's routine for a player to keep shooting after he made his game ball.
When this is realized, they don't count the extra balls he made (which would affect handicapping)
or anything his opponent did after.

It's also legal for me to coach my teammate on the best spot to break from, without it counting as a timeout,
because the game legally didn't begin until the rack is struck. So it makes sense to me that if you ignore
anything before the game technically begins, you also ignore anything after the game technically ends.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I don't know but this seems clear as day to me:

http://www.poolplayers.com/documents/2012-Team-Manual-FINAL_LR.PDF

When playing the 8-ball, you scratch. You lose whether or not you
pocket the 8-ball.

BTW- you can easily download the PDF to a smartphone. I reference it on occasion

I know you can download it. I'm saying now that you can download it, it should be about 10x thicker. I also know the rule in question, that's not the point. The point is, if a foul occurs and the incoming player doesn't acknowledge it, what happens? Can someone step-in and say something? If so, can someone say something on all fouls? If there are specific situations, what are they? The rulebook doesn't cover that.

 

[justadub]

I know you can download it. I'm saying now that you can download it, it should be about 10x thicker. I also know the rule in question, that's not the point. The point is, if a foul occurs and the incoming player doesn't acknowledge it, what happens? Can someone step-in and say something? If so, can someone say something on all fouls? If there are specific situations, what are they? The rulebook doesn't cover that.

I see your argument here, but really, when the rule affects "end of game", anyone watching that knew it was hill-hill should have said something. It's that simple.

Yrs, Singles is a bit different than team play, but this isn't a case of offering a rule to prevent a violation. The game was over, and the players were oblivious to it.

The person running the tourney dropped the ball, as did anyone watching that knows better. If I were there, I would have spoken up. (I run singles qualifiers for my division.) At the very least, get them to stop and check their paperwork, till dawn broke over marblehead.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I know you can download it. I'm saying now that you can download it, it should be about 10x thicker. I also know the rule in question, that's not the point. The point is, if a foul occurs and the incoming player doesn't acknowledge it, what happens? Can someone step-in and say something? If so, can someone say something on all fouls? If there are specific situations, what are they? The rulebook doesn't cover that.

I know the answer to your question. Call goes to the shooting unless a third party is asked to watch the shot. So if you are watching a match and witness a foul you can say whatever you want but unless you were called over to watch the call goes to the shooter. I am sure it is covered in the rules.

 

[Maniac]

There was a heated argument during a playoff match in our area. A player was trying to place BIH at the lip of the pocket. The cueball fell-in and they ruled it a foul. Afterward, the referee asked me what I thought. She said the rulebook states any time the cue ball goes in a pocket, lands on the floor or falls off the table, it's a foul. I responded, "So, if I have BIH and I drop the cueball on the floor, it's a foul?" She immediately realized how that one sentence defining basic fouls was totally wrong. I explained the cueball needs to be "in play" in order for a foul to occur. So long as the shooter doesn't disturb any other ball on the table, they're allowed total freedom when placing BIH. When they strike that cue ball, that's when fouls can occur again.

Actually.....the last sentence in this quote is wrong. A foul can occur in a BIH situation if, while placing the cueball, the cueball (or a part of the hand placing the cueball) touches any other ball on the table. A cue stick does not even have to be involved in this scenario. It's clearly defined in the rulebook.

FTR....I do agree with you that the APA rulebook is about the most useless POS (my words, not yours) ever contrived.

Carry on.

Maniac

 

[fat Albert]

How is it possible to play the whole session as this
Was Regionals. She would have had to play
6 or7 times out of the 16 weeks herself during the
Session how could she do all that and see all
The other matches and not know herself that
Scratch on 8 is loss of game

 

[APA Operator]

These are all great examples from *team* play. The rulebook begins talking about advising your *teammate* about various things, then begins substituting the word "player" for "teammate". Again, inconsistent and poorly written. Someone who is not on your *team* should offer *nothing* like any of the examples you have mentioned. they need to stay out of the match. In a singles event, you do not have teammates. They should not be telling you anything. While agree the examples you offer are not coaching, I think it is very bad etiquette to offer these things up to either player in a singles match.

KMRUNOUT

Now I think we're talking philosophy. My philosophy is this - if a spectator says something, would I have a problem if a referee had said the same thing? If a referee can inform you that a foul has occurred, I have no problem with a spectator saying the same thing. Clearly spectators should not be allowed to make rulings, but as far as volunteering information, if it's allowed from a referee I would allow it from a spectator.

This reduces the issue to the question of what information should a referee volunteer? I think we would agree on some, but not all, of the answer.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Actually.....the last sentence in this quote is wrong. A foul can occur in a BIH situation if, while placing the cueball, the cueball (or a part of the hand placing the cueball) touches any other ball on the table. A cue stick does not even have to be involved in this scenario. It's clearly defined in the rulebook.

FTR....I do agree with you that the APA rulebook is about the most useless POS (my words, not yours) ever contrived.

Carry on.

Maniac

Yes, that's why I said so long as they don't disturb anything.


EDIT: I'll add, when I was discussing that situation, I was also imparting my general knowledge of pool rules, not necessarily ruling as it might happen at higher level play. There's really no telling what might happen with many APA refs.

 

[jburkm002]

I believe in BCA if a foul is not acknowledged and the next shot is executed (foul or legal) it's as if the first foul never occurred. Guess the question would be is scratching on the eight ball a foul or end of game. End of game might indicate no further fouls or shots may occur and it's loss of game.