APA should be Sanbagging inc. -

[cuesmith]

Obviously there is a flaw in the system.
Handicaps in both leagues and Tournaments can level the field if done correctly.
Handicaps need to be monitored by a experienced player.
Sandbagging needs stiffer penalties.
But I my case I'll just play my pool in places that offer a fair system.
Or where everyone plays even.

The main flaw in the system is greed! The greed of the APA by imposing that stupid "23" rule! It's only real purpose is to break up teams and force them to divide into more teams, thus making more money for the APA! Without the "23" rule, people wouldn't be forced to sandbag in order to keep their teams intact. I'm telling you it's no better than a "Ponzi" scheme.

As far as the social aspect, that's hardly an incentive to people who are interested in improving. If you improve you're punished by making you split your team up so you'll be forced to find new low handicaped players to form a new team. Anyone who thinks the APA is good for pool, has their head up their A$$!

just more hot air!

Sherm

 

[trustyrusty]

The main flaw in the system is greed! The greed of the APA by imposing that stupid "23" rule! It's only real purpose is to break up teams and force them to divide into more teams, thus making more money for the APA! Without the "23" rule, people wouldn't be forced to sandbag in order to keep their teams intact. I'm telling you it's no better than a "Ponzi" scheme.

As far as the social aspect, that's hardly an incentive to people who are interested in improving. If you improve you're punished by making you split your team up so you'll be forced to find new low handicaped players to form a new team. Anyone who thinks the APA is good for pool, has their head up their A$$!

just more hot air!

Sherm

I've always wondered, if their handicapping system works, what's the need for the 23 rule? I whole team of 8ball 7s vs. a whole team of 8ball 3s should work....Although the whole team of 7s wouldn't like playing the team of sandbagging 4s and 5s....lol

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You guys should email Mike about creating your own forum for this. That way, you'll be able to easily find every thread anyone has ever posted about sandbagging in the APA. I mean, there's got to be at least a thousand by now.

Here, we can name it now. My two suggestions are as follows:

APA Sandbaggers List
APA Whine Bar

 

[Bamacues]

If you want to win and go to Las Vegas you have to have players whose handicap is less than it should be. In order to have these under handicapped players they have to lose on purpose and run up innings. The APA concept is good, but unfortunately people will always try to beat the system and get an advantage.

James

That is not necessarily true. Another way to hold your handicap is to be matched up against tough players. Also, it helps to play in a real "pool hall" where there are lots of tough players. I play out of All Star Billiards in Frederick, MD, and we always have several teams go to Vegas each year. We play most league play on 9' Gold Crowns, although there is a bar table league one night. Competition is tough....we have numerous S/L-9 players in 9-ball, and pretty much every team in 8-ball has at least one S/L-7. The toughest part about getting to Vegas is to win in-house.

Personally, I am not going to pay my $8-10 to lose on prupose, and I would not ask another player to do so. Also, I would not play on a team that played that way.

Joe

 

[greyghost]

The main flaw in the system is greed! The greed of the APA by imposing that stupid "23" rule! It's only real purpose is to break up teams and force them to divide into more teams, thus making more money for the APA! Without the "23" rule, people wouldn't be forced to sandbag in order to keep their teams intact. I'm telling you it's no better than a "Ponzi" scheme.

As far as the social aspect, that's hardly an incentive to people who are interested in improving. If you improve you're punished by making you split your team up so you'll be forced to find new low handicaped players to form a new team. Anyone who thinks the APA is good for pool, has their head up their A$$!

just more hot air!

Sherm

Sherm how you been...remember the guy that was gonna build you a computer for a cue about 5yrs ago and we just never got around(me). Hope your doing good buddy.

I really do agree, my roommate who was ranked a 5 didn't play a few years, but had praticed much with me over that time. Took him to a 8speed from the 5, they wanted him to sandbag, and he's just the unassuming kid who likes to shoot...instead of that we always talked about just getting him as high as we could, he eventually went on to get 2nd in the little championship tourney here in town, and won overall points champion for the season here. His team was no where near able to go to vegas, neither was he.

To me its silly how they give you patches for nine on the breaks but yet if you break only make the 9 you get what 2pts, i believe? So him running all those balls actaully means he played better because it couldn't have been alot of 9ers on break. When I go play with regular joes/gals on the bar box, I basically have to miss on purpose for them to shoot...so I have to take my enjoyment and shift it so others don't complain. So when I run out...which is alll the time (not bragging just making point) they start complaining...but if I don't (basically sandbag) so they don't *****....you know what they do? Its oh jeez ghost how could you miss that, oh god your better than that, i cant believe you missed that, why you didn't run out ghost! WTF you can't make em happy either way...and why? Its not my fault, its their own...they play bad and have no want to get better, they just don't want to feel like children around a player. Do they ever stop to think that maybe I just enjoying hittin balls with someone. People are retarded and anytime you put many of them in a group you get more retardation.

My grandfather always said "nothing is worth doing, if its not worth doing well"


Sandbaggers are a bunch of slackjawed faggits....running out will turn you into a got dam sexual tyran-o-saur....just like me!

GreyGhost

 

[trustyrusty]

Sherm how you been...remember the guy that was gonna build you a computer for a cue about 5yrs ago and we just never got around(me). Hope your doing good buddy.

I really do agree, my roommate who was ranked a 5 didn't play a few years, but had praticed much with me over that time. Took him to a 8speed from the 5, they wanted him to sandbag, and he's just the unassuming kid who likes to shoot...instead of that we always talked about just getting him as high as we could, he eventually went on to get 2nd in the little championship tourney here in town, and won overall points champion for the season here. His team was no where near able to go to vegas, neither was he.

To me its silly how they give you patches for nine on the breaks but yet if you break only make the 9 you get what 2pts, i believe? So him running all those balls actaully means he played better because it couldn't have been alot of 9ers on break. When I go play with regular joes/gals on the bar box, I basically have to miss on purpose for them to shoot...so I have to take my enjoyment and shift it so others don't complain. So when I run out...which is alll the time (not bragging just making point) they start complaining...but if I don't (basically sandbag) so they don't *****....you know what they do? Its oh jeez ghost how could you miss that, oh god your better than that, i cant believe you missed that, why you didn't run out ghost! WTF you can't make em happy either way...and why? Its not my fault, its their own...they play bad and have no want to get better, they just don't want to feel like children around a player. Do they ever stop to think that maybe I just enjoying hittin balls with someone. People are retarded and anytime you put many of them in a group you get more retardation.

My grandfather always said "nothing is worth doing, if its not worth doing well"


Sandbaggers are a bunch of slackjawed faggits....running out will turn you into a got dam sexual tyran-o-saur....just like me!

GreyGhost

ok, while I found your post very entertaining, and quite amusing....you might just have to consider that most of these retards don't spend their entire life in a poolhall or on a table. Quite a few (I would guess majority - not sure) play once or twice a week, and that's during league....Maybe their goal is to go out and have a good time with their buddies, even if their play is subpar.

Now, you might be able to persuade a few to put in more table time if you just let them know that doing so could turn them into a sexual tyran-o-saur like you. I mean, if making balls = STUDdom, who wouldn't put the time in.

 

[greyghost]

Lol...for sure they should go have a good time...it just gets old that good shooter get down casted as the bad guy or something...but yet when someone comes in and starts robbing the leaguers...they want me to win their money for them! Yet its like pulling teeth just to get them to play with you, hell you be nice and give them a pointer...like hey running balls makes your chest hair grow...they dont care just kidding, but I'm sure you get the point. THey want that good time, at others expense tho in my opinion, its just a social club for drinkers to have something to do...at least around here. I rarely see anyone of them trying to get better, much less taking advice from someone. It saddens me at times...the last pool hall here i frequented regurarly no one even wanted to hit ball...why because I don't really miss. I was friends with everyone, my little roommate tho everybody hit balls with him all the time. Now he don't miss too much on those bar boxes either...they don't play with him no more either, thats depressing. To me alot of those leagues are full of sore losers, people who just want to show off, feel big, sandbag, get wasted.

And all of them believe that a 7s a 7 and a 9 is a 9....like someone said a 7here might only be a 4 in NY....I'll tell you this a 9 in lafayette, la is only a weak 8 strong 7 in much of the midwest hotspots. Pool is pretty crap here tho...and was great many other places I've been. Most of my rants have to do with the attitude of the so called "players" from this area. A buch of heartless, I need the mortal nuts to play you for $5 race to 3 on the box! Just like they wanna steal at nationals...they want to steal everyday...whether its your money, or on the game.

Upon that note I want to personally say thanks to all the great wonderful people on this board...and all the other wonderful pool players/promoters of the game, teachers, etc out there that keep me hitting balls. It's garbage here, but great to know we still are out there. All I gotta do is finish up my degree, and then its off with me, untill then thanks for the daily fix of pool the way I like it thanks to you guys. Camaraderie and moving forward, getting better, not lying cheating sandbagging, nitt the world over trophy. IF anything is going to change the pool world is probably us here on AZBILLIARDS. Love you guys/gals.

Thanks for keeping me loving this game, when others try everything to make me hate it.

Grey Ghost

 

[ronhudson]

That is not necessarily true. Another way to hold your handicap is to be matched up against tough players. <clip>

Joe

The problem with that logic is one that's built into their system -- They have a national system based on local handicapping. Even though you played as hard as you could (and lost matches because the players were intentionally tough), when you go to nationals, you will be way out of line compared to the players you are up against there because most of them matched up with the opposite strategy. You can truthfully say "I play my best game all the time; my skill level is legit", but it won't matter to the whiners, you are better than the person on their team with the same or higher skill level, so you are a sandbagger.

 

[greyghost]

The problem with that logic is one that's built into their system -- They have a national system based on local handicapping. Even though you played as hard as you could (and lost matches because the players were intentionally tough), when you go to nationals, you will be way out of line compared to the players you are up against there because most of them matched up with the opposite strategy. You can truthfully say "I play my best game all the time; my skill level is legit", but it won't matter to the whiners, you are better than the person on their team with the same or higher skill level, so you are a sandbagger.

Love the avatar....and you are right about the national based system based on localities.

 

[Das928]

I've always wondered, if their handicapping system works, what's the need for the 23 rule?

Without the 23 rule you have the BCA. new players cant compete in BCA. With the 23 rule in effect you can throw your low SLs against theirs

 

[pooltchr]

I think anyone who ever beat me in APA must have been a sandbagger, and under ranked. There is no other excuse for my losing!



Steve

 

[pooltchr]

I've always wondered, if their handicapping system works, what's the need for the 23 rule? I whole team of 8ball 7s vs. a whole team of 8ball 3s should work....Although the whole team of 7s wouldn't like playing the team of sandbagging 4s and 5s....lol

Without the 23 rule, sooner or later, the stronger players would end up pushing the lower skilled players out of the league. Why would you need a two on your team, if you could play a team of 5 sl7's?

The 23 rule is there because the APA wants ALL levels of players to play, and have fun.

Steve

 

[trustyrusty]

Without the 23 rule, sooner or later, the stronger players would end up pushing the lower skilled players out of the league. Why would you need a two on your team, if you could play a team of 5 sl7's?

The 23 rule is there because the APA wants ALL levels of players to play, and have fun.

Steve

because handicaps are supposed to LEVEL the playing field....so, if a 2 has no chance beating a 7, then make them go to 1 or make the 7 an 8 (whatever it takes). A 2 would not likely be playing a 7, but why have handicaps if they don't make races against higher level players even??

I love how it's supposed to be handicapped and yet most believe a team of all the highest ranked players would dominate....makes no sense.

 

[pooltchr]

I like my odds in APA 8 ball against any sl2. I should win that match more often than not, because I should be able to clear my balls before my opponent. However, if I make one mistake and scratch on the 8, they only need one more game, while I am having to win 6 games. Even a 2 can win 1 out of 6 games once in a while, so they still have a chance to win. But the odds still remain in my favor.

And while strategy will vary from captain to captain, most of the time, players will be matched up with someone of similar skill. I think that was probably what the APA was thinking back when the league first started.

Steve

 

[qwerty123]

Last night we had our first round of playoffs, playing a team the best us 3-2 in regular league and we go 3-1 in playoffs, the last match we put up a 4 and they put up a 6 well our 4 goes 3 and out, and gets called a mother-f***in sandbagger, we just laughed because the other player scratched 3 times, made the eight out of turn, and we r they sandbaggers, this is my first and last time playing apa because of the lack of sportsmanship among the teams.

 

[Scott Lee]

qwerty123...I can understand your attitude. When I was an APA L.O. (MANY years ago), every member, of every team, had to sign a form I constructed, which stated flatly, that ANY unsportsmanlike behavior would not be tolerated. First offense was loss of the individual match...2nd offense was loss of the team match...3rd offense was expulsion from my league. In four years I had to kick a grand total of 2 players out of the league (out of 600 players). I don't know why more L.O.'s don't do this, but it sure worked for me! I had happy players, who had fun, played fair, and win or lose, were good sports about it!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Last night we had our first round of playoffs, playing a team the best us 3-2 in regular league and we go 3-1 in playoffs, the last match we put up a 4 and they put up a 6 well our 4 goes 3 and out, and gets called a mother-f***in sandbagger, we just laughed because the other player scratched 3 times, made the eight out of turn, and we r they sandbaggers, this is my first and last time playing apa because of the lack of sportsmanship among the teams.

 

[qwerty123]

i understand they say we sandbag, but my teammate and myself play the higher skilled level players which is why our handicaps are low, but because we won this time we must cheat.

 

[greyghost]

Love that idea scott...did something similar

qwerty123...I can understand your attitude. When I was an APA L.O. (MANY years ago), every member, of every team, had to sign a form I constructed, which stated flatly, that ANY unsportsmanlike behavior would not be tolerated. First offense was loss of the individual match...2nd offense was loss of the team match...3rd offense was expulsion from my league. In four years I had to kick a grand total of 2 players out of the league (out of 600 players). I don't know why more L.O.'s don't do this, but it sure worked for me! I had happy players, who had fun, played fair, and win or lose, were good sports about it!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

You know I like that, I used to run a tourney at a bar. We played regular ol' 8 ball bar rules, call shot we settled that out because no one wanted to play ball in hand. People knew that if you tried to pull some b.s. safe and duck without obviously trying to do it LEGALLY, then it would then become ball in hand for the next player...if you did it again you were sent home don't care if it was in the finals. Through all the b.s. that always accompanies those rules and settings like that, well we never had a problem not once. It was a good little weekly 15 man tourney and lasted a year and half untill I moved away. First usually came away with 80-120 second 35-40 third always got 20, and 4th entry fee back. I do miss all my old buddies/gals that used to play up at that little bar with me.

If you give someone an inch they take a mile...don't give em' nothin and make em walk and pretty soon they gonna start trottin, then runnin. People are stupid so you gotta keep them from acting/doing dumb things. The APA could manage and create a better system if they wanted, that I am sure of. Untill then I suggest that everyone just pay attention and also do the best you can, because your only hurting yourself if your not.


Best Wishes
G.G.

 

[Slide Rule]

Beat by a Three

This is a multi part story. In an APA match John a 6 matched against their 3. It was obvious that the 3 was a sandbagger and easily won the match. After the match.
Ken “I bet you didn’t think you would lose to a 3?”

At the second meeting with the same team. John and I discussed match ups and he decided to play the 3. Same result. And same comment from Ken. At the end of the match their team wanted to shake hands.
Al “Pardon me for not shaking your hand.”

The following season, our team was eliminated in playoffs, but I noticed a former team mate and decided to get something to eat and come back. That is when I noticed Ken, so I spoke with the opposition captain.
Al “Can I see your score sheet?”
Captain “Yes.”
I noticed that Ken had been raised to a 4, but advised the captain that he would have to choose carefully. He selected an older female who had been playing for years. Ken was a 4 with the woman a 3.
Well Ken won the first game easily. In the second game the woman left him a thin end rail shot on the 8 ball. Ken walked up made the 8 but the cue ball went table length for a scratch. Match tied 1 to 1. The woman then broke the balls and ran the table for a win and eliminated Kens team.

I got into the handshaking line. When I got to Ken, I gave him a two handed handshake and said.
Al “I bet you didn’t think you would lose to a 3?”

Remember, you aren’t the only sandbagger in the league.

Slide Rule

Al

 

[ejasons]

What is sandbagging?

It seems there seems to be some confusion as to what sandbagging is.

As in the just-posted story, where the 6 was "beaten easily by a 3". Seems to me that, if the 3 goes around "easily beating" higher level players, I don't see much sandbagging going on. Sandbagging implies hiding one's true speed; that doesn't seem to be the case here.

There was an earlier story about a 3 running the table -- "she even made two bank shots during her run". Would you expect a *good* player to have to make two bank shots when running out a table? Hell, do you expect that the good player would even be a good bet to make two bank shots on a POS bar table? Or, perhaps, the 3 just got on a roll, strung a few good shots together, got a bit of luck by making a couple of bank shots that she wouldn't regularly make, and got an improbable table run? (Not to mention that a "sandbagger" wouldn't run a table -- what do you think, she sandbagged for years to get down to a 3, all to culminate in a single match against you, where she let it all out, and showed her true speed?)

Not to say that there isn't sandbagging going on in the APA -- there is, and it is a definite problem. These are just very poor examples of such...

FWIW...