APA team question

boyersj said:
This conversation is pretty insightful I must say. The break is the most important shot in the game of 9ball, especially for skill levels say 6+.

I would like to get some feedback on the following scenario. I have never been in the scenario but my personality is one that likes to have a premeditated plan.

Player needs a 12-8 win for team to win LTC. Player is a SL9 who has broken without balls falling in 4 consecutive racks and needs 8 balls. Other player needs lets say 3. SL9 has been trying to make balls on every break - trying to runout racks (per the APA rules). If the SL9 identifies hey, I cannot break dry and leave them the 1 because I will likely get beat. They have a few options.

1. They break and hope to make a ball and get position to run their 8 pts. This puts the entire teams aspirations on the line of pocketing a ball on the break.

2. They break offense/defense hoping to make a ball but planning on playing safe given the long distance. Again this also has risks. I truly do not believe this is a form of cheating, but I will ask teh qu

3. Surrender their break and hope the poorly breaking table benefits them. Without looking at the rule book I believe you can surrender any shot and give opponent ball in hand, I would imagine you can also surrender your break or scratch intentionally twice to execute... I am not a rule junkie persey.

I just text my LO - I will provide an update tomorrow - our team has a tri-cup match tonight that if we win, we go to the LTC :)

Hope everyone has a successful and enjoyable weekend.
Click to expand...

Scenario #3 is most definitely out, if the opposing player just needs three balls. I'd say that scenario #1 is a good bet with a skill level 9 breaking and the odds of (finally) making a ball on the break has shifted to his favor (I mean, really, FIVE breaks in a row without making a ball???)

Good luck this weekend!!!

Maniac
 
boyersj said:
This conversation is pretty insightful I must say. The break is the most important shot in the game of 9ball, especially for skill levels say 6+.

I would like to get some feedback on the following scenario. I have never been in the scenario but my personality is one that likes to have a premeditated plan.

Player needs a 12-8 win for team to win LTC. Player is a SL9 who has broken without balls falling in 4 consecutive racks and needs 8 balls. Other player needs lets say 3. SL9 has been trying to make balls on every break - trying to runout racks (per the APA rules). If the SL9 identifies hey, I cannot break dry and leave them the 1 because I will likely get beat. They have a few options.

1. They break and hope to make a ball and get position to run their 8 pts. This puts the entire teams aspirations on the line of pocketing a ball on the break.

2. They break offense/defense hoping to make a ball but planning on playing safe given the long distance. Again this also has risks. I truly do not believe this is a form of cheating, but I will ask teh qu

3. Surrender their break and hope the poorly breaking table benefits them. Without looking at the rule book I believe you can surrender any shot and give opponent ball in hand, I would imagine you can also surrender your break or scratch intentionally twice to execute... I am not a rule junkie persey.

I just text my LO - I will provide an update tomorrow - our team has a tri-cup match tonight that if we win, we go to the LTC :)

Hope everyone has a successful and enjoyable weekend.
Click to expand...

I would never choose option 3. Your hopes of a "poorly breaking table" benefiting you could just as easily give them 3 on the break or none of the break and leave you hooked.

I believe a SL9 who hasn't gotten a ball on the break in a few racks would perhaps change where he's breaking from. I'm not a SL9 (yet) and if I'm dry breaking I have no problem moving a ball or two to either side of my bad break spot.

Also #2 isn't cheating.

Giving up your turn is marked as a defensive shot. If you're not trying to legally pocket a ball then it's a d shot.
 
This is straight from the APA Rulebook.

3. BREAKING
To be a legal break, players must break from behind the head string. The head
ball or second ball must be struck first and at least four object balls must be
driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed. The cue ball may not be shot
into a rail before the rack. If the rack is struck, but the break does not qualify
as legal, the balls are re-racked and re-broken by the same player. If the rack is
struck, but the break does not qualify as legal and results in a scratch, the balls
are re-racked and broken by the opposite player. THE RACK MUST BE
STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN OCCUR. Breaking safe or soft is not
allowed. The League Operator may make judgments and issue penalties to
teams and players who are not breaking hard. Breaking just hard enough to
comply with this rule is not a guarantee against penalties. Remember, break as
hard as you can with control.

Black Cat :cool:
 
Maniac said:
The APA would have had a better rule here if they would have left this part out.

Breaking "as hard as you can with control", well, that can vary GREATLY from player to player.

Maniac
Click to expand...

Very true. Being as I often seem to have no control whatsoever, I should be able to break pretty softly :p

That line is the one to remember if the issue comes up. There are many nights when I'm not feeling it, and I break more medium-ish. I dont consider it "soft", but its not really cracking the rack either. The spread is decent enough. No one has ever said anything before, but if they do, I will cite the magic phrase "with control"
 
I agree with Jude's response. Go up 2-1 and play your best player to close it out. Go down 1-2 and you cannot play your weak player.
 
CreeDo said:
This comes up all the time in our league so I thought I'd see how other teams handle it.

Say your team has a very strong player (7/8/9) who almost never loses,
and a very weak player (1/2/3) who almost never wins.

In order to for the strong player to shoot, the weak player always has to shoot also,
or else the team can't make numbers (i.e. they exceed the 23 limit).

Optionally, they both can sit and the team can just play their middle-of-the-field players.

So what do you think is better?
Play the 9 + 2, for one guaranteed win and one guaranteed loss.
Play a couple of 4/5/6's instead for a semi-random outcome... might be 2 wins, 2 losses, one of each.
Click to expand...

Dunnn51 said:
I have a Division Championship coming this week ( 8- ball),... and we have LTC's coming a the beginning of the month (9-ball). We have a strong team, but a rookie captain. Rookie capt'n has found out its up to the draw, but ideally its the 3-4's that win the matches not the 7-8-9's. I'll take 3 good S/L 3's everytime, so long as they got good fundies. Figure if 2 out of 3 of them win you have the match.
I HATE IT when our heavy (S/L9) loses and we only get 1 win from the middle. Then its down to the wire, and its all on your S/L 2 .
For that reason, it may be better to save the heavy for the end. Itsa pity you can't play 3 (S/L6's)
Click to expand...

Hey CreeDo,

Figured i'd update you a bit as it fits this thread:

Yes, we played the 9-2 strategy the other night, and it worked well. (We played the mis-match since the other team INSISTED we play on THEIR table ! (WE were 1st place and they were the wild-card, hence we were the home team.As 1st place and home team, we pick the table.)
At any rate , we put our 2 up 1st against a 6,(they won the toss) so we gave up 1st match essentially. ( I played like dogshite and lost BTW ) :o:mad: The last match was our 7 against their 3. (their "3" is no ordinary 3,..... a very consistent and dangerous player.) A 5-2 race and the 3 actually took a game on a rare miss by our 7. was 3-1 at that point and our 7 took it home with 2 Stunning shots in those last 2 games. (If i had pool BZ and knew how to post it here, i would) The match was essentially up to the mid-level players.

I thought we were playing both matches last night, we have before so I thought so this time. We are playing finals 8-ball in 2 weeks vs. another "combined" team. Its gonna be a real challenge.
 
I also have an update - Our match on Friday night which was to get to the LTC was a disaster because on of my SL3s who went up recently to SL5 in 8ball played TERRIBLE, got his head in a funk and got beat 16-4 against a SL4.

Next match we won 12-8 and the third match we lost by 1 ball 12-8. So I have the option of playing 4th or 5th, and I figure I can draw out their best remaining player (team had all SL4s) and recover from the 12pt deficit.

I played their best SL4 and won 18-2 (11 innings, 3 defense, 3 B&Rs) so it was winner takes all in the last match. When we put up our SL3, they put up a 2 that beat my 3 without the spot.

Frustrating but evident that a good SL9 can really punish any skill level with a wll played match, but can only make up one other players bad match - not 2.

Oh and the comment on the break, my LO indicated control does imply keeping the ball on the table but we also admitted that it is vague and it is not cheating to adjust your break throughout the match including ball speed. Like I said before, the spirit of the rule is to make the balls move on the break, not to just bump into the clump and leave the opponent a mess.
 
Last edited:
boyersj said:
Devil's advocate is good! Let me ask this question in general

If I play a 2-way (also known as a offense/defense shot) should it be counted as a non-performance shot? I don't mean if I hit the ball hard and slop something in, but I am trying to make a shot but chose a tougher shot that can also leave the other player a tough shot in case I miss? Let me be clear, that I am expecting and hoping to make the shot in this instance.
Click to expand...

Well there's no category for "non-performance shot" that I'm aware of.
There's a shot attempt and a safety. The language on 2 ways says something like "if you feel the shooter's
primary intention is to pocket a ball, do not mark it as a safety". So that's pretty clearcut
even though it requires a judgement call on the part of the scorer.

In any case there's no cheating or fouls here.

Now consider this on the break, If the cue ball is shot to end up on the foot of the table and the one is likely moving up table - can that be considered a safety? If so, then all 2-way shots should always be considered defense. Like I said, they are trying to keep the game moving, and that is why they do not want "safety breaks".
Click to expand...

So your reasoning seems to be:

• If you could call a safe break a "safety", then all two way shots should be marked as safeties too.
• But two way shots are not marked as safeties
• Therefore a safe break is not a safety

???

- A safe break is not a 2-way shot, it's a 1-way shot. It's a straight up safety. You're trying to hide whitey.
If you successfully do this but make a ball by accident it's a screwup.
You're not hoping to make a ball and simultaneously hook the cue ball.

- Even if it were a 2-way, the break is treated differently from normal shots.
Safeties are allowed during normal shots so it doesn't matter how the APA chooses to mark 2-ways.
Safeties are explicitly banned during breaks. So it follows that even if a 2-way break existed,
it would be breaking the rule.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top