APA.........You Do the Math.
- Thread starter Ball Banger
- Start date
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The only problem I have and this could possibly go for all handicap leagues. I've been too vegas 3-4 times now and there is a huge difference in the level of play from an apa 4 from one area compared to another. This could possibly be the same for bca but I've never been for that so I don't know.
I can understand there being a big difference in the level of 7's but the low to mid ranked players should be close. I just want to understand how this is, I know some area's have more people which makes the league bigger but even if you took the biggest league and the smallest, IF the system worked then the players should be close in skill level.
I'm not bashing either league here I just want some help understanding here......Also maybe if the leagues were switched to big tables it might help with handicaps instead of playing on bar boxes with pockets big enough to drive a mack truck through.....
The only problem I have and this could possibly go for all handicap leagues. I've been too vegas 3-4 times now and there is a huge difference in the level of play from an apa 4 from one area compared to another. This could possibly be the same for bca but I've never been for that so I don't know.
I can understand there being a big difference in the level of 7's but the low to mid ranked players should be close. I just want to understand how this is, I know some area's have more people which makes the league bigger but even if you took the biggest league and the smallest, IF the system worked then the players should be close in skill level.
I'm not bashing either league here I just want some help understanding here......Also maybe if the leagues were switched to big tables it might help with handicaps instead of playing on bar boxes with pockets big enough to drive a mack truck through.....
Ok, I read this and had to stop at page 5. I am going to be another to put my .02 in. I have played both leagues and here is the summation. APA is for peopel that want to have fun playing pool while the BCA is a league for people that want to compete. That is why the APA is larger, because there are more people that suck at pool and than the other end of the spectrum. They have to salvage there pride so why would they play in a league they have no chance in winning a single game. As far as payouts go, who cares. Noone is getting rich playing in either league. My opinion, APA sucks ass. But that is me. I will never play in one again. The rules are what do it for me. Dumbest shit I have ever heard in my life. "I lost the game because I was scratching my left nut, closing my right eye and standing on 1 foot while I shot. Damn it!!!" Sorry, they may have the numbers but the BCA if by far, hands down, no doubt about a better league for people who want to play pool. PERIOD.
The problem, as I understand it, is that the skill levels for players are based upon the League Operators region. That being said there can be a huge difference between 4's from let's say Chicago and 4's from another area of the country.
Until APA skill levels are adjusted and set nationally, this difference in level of play will continue to exist.
Until APA skill levels are adjusted and set nationally, this difference in level of play will continue to exist.
The only problem I have and this could possibly go for all handicap leagues. I've been too vegas 3-4 times now and there is a huge difference in the level of play from an apa 4 from one area compared to another. This could possibly be the same for bca but I've never been for that so I don't know.
I can understand there being a big difference in the level of 7's but the low to mid ranked players should be close. I just want to understand how this is, I know some area's have more people which makes the league bigger but even if you took the biggest league and the smallest, IF the system worked then the players should be close in skill level.
I'm not bashing either league here I just want some help understanding here......Also maybe if the leagues were switched to big tables it might help with handicaps instead of playing on bar boxes with pockets big enough to drive a mack truck through.....
I can't believe I missed this one previously. Not everything in the BCA is out in the open, Mr. Banger. The following is an exact quote from Mark Griffin's handicapped pool league rules:
"Player ratings are determined by a proprietary formula. The formula tracks several factors of each player's record of performance within the league. To prevent any possibility of manipulation of ratings by players, the formula is not, and will not, be published."
This post isn't meant to make you look bad, Mr. Banger. Only to point out once again that perception and/or opinion is not FACT!
We do not operate on a different scoring system based on what region we play in. There will probably always be a perception that 4's from one part of the country are better than 4's in another. Some people who lose a match never wish to say they just lost the match. They like to make excuses for why they lost the match, and the easiest one and the most beaten to death excuse on the planet is that the other player was not rated properly.
In my own league area, a skill level 4 can beat another skill level 4 by a score of 3-0. Does that mean that one skill level 4 is way better than the other one or someone isn't rated properly? Should it be assumed that the handicap system doesn't work because one 4 won their match 3-0 over another 4? Not at all.
Players from all over the country win mini tournaments at the National event in Las Vegas in all skill level tiers besides also winning individual matches in the National Team and Singles Championships.
That's not to say that people aren't attempting to manipulate skill levels. APA kicks them out of the tournaments and the league if they are caught.
This is a polular misconception. Some competing leagues will propagate the misconception as a selling point for their own league. Let me show you why they're wrong.
Take any handicapped league with a computerized handicap calculation. Matches are played and recorded on scoresheets. Those scoresheets go somewhere and data is input into a computer. The computer program spits out new handicaps. Let's call this part the "baseline". If this is all that is done, it doesn't really matter where that computer is or who is inputting the data, right?
Most systems, though, provide the ability for manual adjustment. After all, it's not possible for a computer to get it right 100% of the time, is it? If it is, then it would be possible to cheat with impunity. A computer can be fooled repeatedly, but eventually a human learns.
So, the difference now is in the manual adjustments and who is making them. Those with a "central" system will argue that their system is better because it removes bias - the same people are doing the adjustments for everyone, and they are doing them the same every time. That sounds good, doesn't it? Look a little closer - if they are done the same every time, why not just teach the computer to do them? Just put it in the baseline, and once again it doesn't matter whether it's centralized or not.
The only way manual adjustments can be useful (or even necessary) is if they can be (and are) treated differently on a case-by-case basis. You need knowledge that can't be programmed into a computer. Who has that knowledge, or is best-equipped to get it? That's right, the local guy.
If skill level differences exist between different APA areas, it only means the local knowledge isn't being put to use. However, even if that is the case, it is worse in any centralized system, where local knowledge can't be used anywhere!
Any operator worth his salt will make use of every tool and every source to make sure handicaps in his area are accurate. That applies to any system. So, if there's a handicap problem, it's a problem with the operator, not the system.
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Wow, imagine all the customers he has to keep happy to generate an income like that! Oh wait, that's not income, it's revenue. Now would be a good time to do some of that math. Subtract taxes, royalties, an office staff of 14 (complete with medical plan, 401k plan, and social security taxes), a fleet of couriers, lease on office space, office equipment, a whole network of computers to maintain, the list goes on and on.
So how much does he really make (not that it's any of your business)? He's been an APA operator for over 20 years, and has built a five-figure customer list by working his tail off to provide a good product and excellent service. If you think it's an easy way to get rich, give it a try. Or maybe you could just talk to your good friend. I'm sure he's been able to just sit back and "raise and split" his way to an obscene income too.
Period
I play both leagues, I was just wondering exactly what specific rule do you not like in the APA. BCA has some whacky rules that don't make sense. Example. Player scratches on 8 and doesn't lose. duh stupid rule
Player makes 8 on the break and doesn't win, dumb rule
I hear people proudly proclaiming that they don't take a slop shot in the BCA. Week after week I watch players lucking the ball in. Oh yeah it went in the pocket they called but it went two extra rails and hit three balls before it went in. But I guess that's not a slop shot.
The only reason the strong players like the BCA is that a really good player
can destroy all the weaklings in the bca each week. with being able to shoot either set after the break and other rules that only favor the advanced player. Another reason you like it so much is that you don't have to ever win anything to play in the nationals, but of course you have to fund your trip yourself. The tiny winnings from the little divisions BCA has won't get you a bus ticket to the next town.
If anyone can put a team together and go it's not a real national championship. I guess we should all just show up at the next Summer Olympics and sign up for our favorite event. And when we win at the bca nationals we don't win anything. 11 g's for first place split 10 ways after we have paid our own way and that's for first place. Of course thats because it's all based on your paid entries with nothing added. What a joke.
As usual the strong player always wants everyone else to cater to him
and to hell with anyone else. he knows it all and is so darn good. The pool room should pay him to come in. The fact is the stronger players won't spend much of their money on league night, eat before they come and still think the establishment should bend over backwards for them.
come on you can tell us the truth, you won't play in the Real League anymore because they won't let you. your kind gives real pool players a bad name. just my 2 cents, lol
I play both leagues, I was just wondering exactly what specific rule do you not like in the APA. BCA has some whacky rules that don't make sense. Example. Player scratches on 8 and doesn't lose. duh stupid rule
Player makes 8 on the break and doesn't win, dumb rule
I hear people proudly proclaiming that they don't take a slop shot in the BCA. Week after week I watch players lucking the ball in. Oh yeah it went in the pocket they called but it went two extra rails and hit three balls before it went in. But I guess that's not a slop shot.
The only reason the strong players like the BCA is that a really good player
can destroy all the weaklings in the bca each week. with being able to shoot either set after the break and other rules that only favor the advanced player. Another reason you like it so much is that you don't have to ever win anything to play in the nationals, but of course you have to fund your trip yourself. The tiny winnings from the little divisions BCA has won't get you a bus ticket to the next town.
If anyone can put a team together and go it's not a real national championship. I guess we should all just show up at the next Summer Olympics and sign up for our favorite event. And when we win at the bca nationals we don't win anything. 11 g's for first place split 10 ways after we have paid our own way and that's for first place. Of course thats because it's all based on your paid entries with nothing added. What a joke.
As usual the strong player always wants everyone else to cater to him
and to hell with anyone else. he knows it all and is so darn good. The pool room should pay him to come in. The fact is the stronger players won't spend much of their money on league night, eat before they come and still think the establishment should bend over backwards for them.
come on you can tell us the truth, you won't play in the Real League anymore because they won't let you. your kind gives real pool players a bad name. just my 2 cents, lol
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Are youe even trying to be serious? Terry & Valerie own every county in Maryland except 4. Even with those expenses, they're still more than likely clearing 7 figures. Are you trying to say that you could own most of metropolitan Maryland and not print money?
Overtaker
You make a great point about all the league rules being watered down. One that burns my butt is the Table run rule that doesn't take into account when 7 of the opponent's balls are gone. Just that a person sinks 8 balls in a row.
Bring Back 8 Ball Bar Rules and old fashion 9 ball before Texas Express. Make the girls shoot spot shots and no ball in hand. Shoot real pool and not the slop rules of our cry baby political correct society.
Which one is more like "real" pool, and which one is a very "sissy" way to win?
A: You win by sinking every stripe or solid, then sink the 8
B: You get a free automatic win for sitting on your ass and doing nothing cuz the other guy scratched on one shot. Or you get an automatic free win a lucky roll on your break, without making a single called shot.
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You don't see the contradiction in logic here?
"They don't count my running those 7 balls, they only count his win. That's unfair!"
vs.
"Hey, he scratched on the 8! Nevermind that he ran 7 balls before that, he should lose! I shouldn't have to make balls to win!"
Surely someone who is manly enough to want "real pool" can handle running 8 balls with ball in hand on a wide open table.
PS to worst_7: Gosh, I wonder why he thought you were attacking him? In a thread full of people claiming APA LO's rip people off and get rich at the players expense, you post something about how an APA LO somewhere is getting 7-figures rich. Derka Der!
APA LO and APA Operator brought some good points to this discussion.
True, that a LO that should use all of the information available to them in tweaking the H.C. of players in his league. From what I remember that is what local handicap meetings are supposed to do. Probably some do some don't. Also sometimes those local handicap reviews are not the best thing to do, if there no people on it that had experience playing other players from outside their own watering hole.
True that players from all parts of the country can and do win tourneys at the national level. This though is not definitive proof that there cannot be skill level differences from one APA region to another. Anyone can get hot during a tourney.
However what was still not answered is; are the skill levels for APA determined at a national level using the data from all of the LO's systems?
Lets look at a hypothetical... I start a region 100 players, all of those players in my region have intermediate to advanced skills (lets say from APA 5-7 in 8 ball)
The play and pound on each other exclusively in my league, how would there handicaps filter out.
I think the very best of them would be 7's and the worst of them would become 3's based on the fact that the population I have is a small sample that is not normally distributed.
The point of my assumpion is that you need a large sample size and a normally distributed group of players for the skill levels to be assigned correctly.
I only bring this up because I would still like to believe this is a more valid explanation for skill level differences then the old sandbagging excuse. I would like to think that 99 percent of the players in a handicapped league are honest and enjoy the competition for what it is, and not try to gain the system for their own personal and team benefit.
Please don't think I am bashing the APA, I have played in APA for 10 years, and TAP for 3 years. When I left APA I was a 7 in eight ball and a 8 in nine-ball. I was very supportive of the APA when I played, and I still am, though there are still aspects of it that I do not agree with. I will keep those to myself as they have no point in this discussion. I have stopped playing all handicapped leagues, not because of my problems with player handicaps, just that it was time for me to move on.
True, that a LO that should use all of the information available to them in tweaking the H.C. of players in his league. From what I remember that is what local handicap meetings are supposed to do. Probably some do some don't. Also sometimes those local handicap reviews are not the best thing to do, if there no people on it that had experience playing other players from outside their own watering hole.
True that players from all parts of the country can and do win tourneys at the national level. This though is not definitive proof that there cannot be skill level differences from one APA region to another. Anyone can get hot during a tourney.
However what was still not answered is; are the skill levels for APA determined at a national level using the data from all of the LO's systems?
Lets look at a hypothetical... I start a region 100 players, all of those players in my region have intermediate to advanced skills (lets say from APA 5-7 in 8 ball)
The play and pound on each other exclusively in my league, how would there handicaps filter out.
I think the very best of them would be 7's and the worst of them would become 3's based on the fact that the population I have is a small sample that is not normally distributed.
The point of my assumpion is that you need a large sample size and a normally distributed group of players for the skill levels to be assigned correctly.
I only bring this up because I would still like to believe this is a more valid explanation for skill level differences then the old sandbagging excuse. I would like to think that 99 percent of the players in a handicapped league are honest and enjoy the competition for what it is, and not try to gain the system for their own personal and team benefit.
Please don't think I am bashing the APA, I have played in APA for 10 years, and TAP for 3 years. When I left APA I was a 7 in eight ball and a 8 in nine-ball. I was very supportive of the APA when I played, and I still am, though there are still aspects of it that I do not agree with. I will keep those to myself as they have no point in this discussion. I have stopped playing all handicapped leagues, not because of my problems with player handicaps, just that it was time for me to move on.
Tony,
From a statistical analysis point of view, I would think having a normal population or large/small population size will make no difference in ranking players, since it appears the number of innings to win matters more than how often you win. So by that logic if I am averaging 2 inning per game when I win, and that makes me some skill level, what difference does it make if I don't always do it? Unless as in your example I am a 5 in a very stong league and I just never win. So I doubt that the small vs large market makes that much difference.
From a statistical analysis point of view, I would think having a normal population or large/small population size will make no difference in ranking players, since it appears the number of innings to win matters more than how often you win. So by that logic if I am averaging 2 inning per game when I win, and that makes me some skill level, what difference does it make if I don't always do it? Unless as in your example I am a 5 in a very stong league and I just never win. So I doubt that the small vs large market makes that much difference.
Let me get this straight, the president of the BCA is posting in an APA thread falsehoods about the APA and I'm the guilty one?
Consider me guilty as charged, I suppose.
Again, what falsehoods do you speak of? The 20% local payout? My experience with the APA proves this to be accurate.
I use that saying myself sometimes. Except with me, it's usually "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed. Those who can't teach phys ed, run leagues." And you're right, I can't play a lick. You could probably spot me the 5 out and still kick my butt.
I'm not angry at all. I'm just telling "the rest of the story." You want to post how much you've been told a guy makes, and claim that you have no agenda, then attack me when I post that it's really not as much as you think, and that he's spent over 20 years building his business and deserves whatever he makes. Sounds like an agenda to me. Then, of course (and dare I say expected?), you have to resort to the old "you suck at pool", as if that somehow is relevant to anything. I guess my retort should be "well, my dad can beat up your dad." So there, top that!
My history with the APA in my area and my math shills in all the surrounding areas prove that to be false.
The point that APALO was tring to make is that you cant just make up numbers and put them out as fact. They may in fact be true in 1 or 2 areas but as money others as posted on here it is certainly not true in the majority of areas.
Mr. Griffin, as the head of a legitimate pool organization, should not be spreading rumors about the APA and what is worse, he is not only spreading them he is then calling them facts. THAT MY FELLOW AZ BILLIARDS POSTERS AMOUNTS TO BLATANT LIES AND MISREPRESENTATIONS.
As another poster pointed out earlier, maybe the only way for the BCA to gain market share is not by offering a better product, but by slandering the competition. I for one can see right through that and anyone else that has a brain should be able to see it as well.