APA.........You Do the Math.

[irackalot]

I've been keeping up with this thread for 2-3 days and I've seen a lot of the other APA bashing threads out there as well. Here's my take.

As far as the % of payouts locally and nationally for each league. First off, nobody except the LO's really know exactly what is taken in and payed out and secondly, who really gives a damn. If you think it's not enough then don't play. It's that simple. Personally, I play leagues for the night out and for some friendly competition.

I play both APA and BCA. I really get tired of seeing some the more arrogant posters on here talking about how "real" pool players only play BCA and everyone in APA is just some banger with no clue. While it's true that there are a lot of beginners and bad players in APA there are also quite a few really good players as well. Just go to Vegas and play in some of the $50 mini tournaments and try them out.

Actually, I feel like I get challenged more in the APA league I play in than I do in BCA. My experience with BCA is that there are 2 or 3 teams that just dominate the rest of the league every session. To me, it's not fun pounding some other team 25-0 with 3 or 4 chances at the table every game. It's harder to win consistently in APA because of the handicap and yes the rules are slanted to the lower ranked players. But if all of the bashers are as good as they say they are that shouldn't be a problem. Right?

I enjoy playing in both leagues. I just get tired of seeing people whining about payouts, handicaps, and rules of a league that obviously is doing something right or they wouldn't have more members than any other league. I'm not saying the APA is perfect and I like all of the rules(ex. 23 rule) but I think for as big of an organization as it is they do a pretty good job.

M

 

[APA Operator]

Are youe even trying to be serious? Terry & Valerie own every county in Maryland except 4. Even with those expenses, they're still more than likely clearing 7 figures. Are you trying to say that you could own most of metropolitan Maryland and not print money?

I'm pretty sure they're not. They're about 7 times my size, we have similar fee structures, and I don't even clear six figures (not even close). I don't have an office staff or many of the expenses they have, so to think that they can make 7 times my income is naive.

It's your last sentence that I find most interesting. I actually do like to think that if I had their area I could have their success. But that's after 15 years in the business. I know how hard it is, but I think I could do it.

HOWEVER, if you think they are "printing money", then I'd be willing to bet that YOU couldn't do it.

We see that attitude all the time, people who think there's nothing to it. After all, how hard can it be to run a league? It's actually not that hard at all, if you want to run ONE division with ten or twelve teams. But try growing it to the point where you can make a living at it, then come back and tell us all how much money you're printing.

 

[justadub]

It's my guess that most of the folks who believe that the APA LO's can print money, or make 7 figures, have never run a business themselves. Again, it's simply a guess. But I run a business. I see the Profit and Loss statements, and the Expense Summaries. I understand that there are lots and lots of expenses that the average joe wouldn't expect or anticipate.

That is why you won't catch me begrudging a successful LO making a good living. It isn't easy. Running any kind of business successfully isn't easy, and if you are indeed successful, the you deserve to be compensated for it.

 

[TimKrazyMon]

I'm pretty sure they're not. They're about 7 times my size, we have similar fee structures, and I don't even clear six figures (not even close). I don't have an office staff or many of the expenses they have, so to think that they can make 7 times my income is naive.

It's your last sentence that I find most interesting. I actually do like to think that if I had their area I could have their success. But that's after 15 years in the business. I know how hard it is, but I think I could do it.

HOWEVER, if you think they are "printing money", then I'd be willing to bet that YOU couldn't do it.

We see that attitude all the time, people who think there's nothing to it. After all, how hard can it be to run a league? It's actually not that hard at all, if you want to run ONE division with ten or twelve teams. But try growing it to the point where you can make a living at it, then come back and tell us all how much money you're printing.

I used to live up in Maryland, so I know that territory very well. Hell, in Baltimore there's practically a bar with a pool table on every other block. Yes, I am aware exactly how much work goes into growing a league, be it APA, BCA, VNEA, etc. So yes, I think if they're not clearing 7 figs, I could.

 

[Worst_7_ever]

I use that saying myself sometimes. Except with me, it's usually "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed. Those who can't teach phys ed, run leagues." And you're right, I can't play a lick. You could probably spot me the 5 out and still kick my butt.

I'm not angry at all. I'm just telling "the rest of the story." You want to post how much you've been told a guy makes, and claim that you have no agenda, then attack me when I post that it's really not as much as you think, and that he's spent over 20 years building his business and deserves whatever he makes. Sounds like an agenda to me. Then, of course (and dare I say expected?), you have to resort to the old "you suck at pool", as if that somehow is relevant to anything. I guess my retort should be "well, my dad can beat up your dad." So there, top that!

.............................

 

[Scott Lee]

Worst_7_ever...In the first place, the national office would only know what the GROSS figure for Terry Justice is...not the net (and they only "might" know that, based on the royalty paid to the national office). That "employee" you speak of would have no idea what Terry puts out in local prize money (hundreds of thousands every year), and they would have NO idea what his annual expenses are, which as already mentioned, are very likely far and above what anyone outside of an APA LO would know about. Terry has been the most successful L.O. in the history of the APA...and that says a lot. You HAVE to keep the players happy or they will leave. When I was in APA nearly 20 years ago, Terry had 1100 teams then. I know he has more now, and has sold off several league areas to others. As for him "clearing" 7 figures...I sincerely doubt it...possibly grossing that much, but his net would be nowhere near a million dollars a year. Even if it was, imo, he deserves it. It's a tough job, and you have to love it (just like any successful business). I'm a successful businessman too, but I spend 200 days a year, on the road, away from my home, to do it. Obviously I like what I do too, or I wouldn't do it, just for the $$$.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As for my comments about the Maryland LO who makes 7 figures...well thats what was told to me by my friend who just bought a area around here. That was told to him directly by an employee of the APA nationals office. I simply stated what I had heard, I did not say it with any agenda, as its clear from my posts, and the post I responded to, that I have none.

 

[APA Operator]

First off, I want to say "I am sorry" I thought I was replying to post by APA LO. I didnt even realize you were a different poster all together. For THAT I am sorry. As for my comments about the Maryland LO who makes 7 figures...well thats what was told to me by my friend who just bought a area around here. That was told to him directly by an employee of the APA nationals office. I simply stated what I had heard, I did not say it with any agenda, as its clear from my posts, and the post I responded to, that I have none. If you had taken the time to actually read the post I responded to, you probably would have realized that. As for attacking you...well if you think that was an attack, then your waaaaaaaaaaay to thin skinned. But regardless of that I do think your blind defemse of anything APA is a little stupid. As I said in my last post, every league has its own issues, and the APA has many. You were correct about the saying being altered, but i did that as a joke...even if its really true. Also, i would enjoy it if your dad beat up mine as he was a real dead beat, and left my mom with two kids under 1 years old. Again, I would suggest decafe

I don't see how you could say I'm blindly defending everything APA. This makes nine or ten posts for me in this thread, and in exactly ONE of them I defended something specific to APA (the requirement for qualified teams to continue playing subsequent sessions). That one was even more of an explanation than a "blind defense". Some were handicapping systems in general. In this particular chain, yes, I am defending a guy who put his nose to the grindstone, lived on mac & cheese for years, and built himself a pretty good business. He happens to be an APA operator, but that's actually irrelevant. You say you weren't implying anything when you made your seven figures comment, but that's not the way it read. I'm not the only one who read it that way - look at the PS at the bottom of CreeDo's reply above.

I don't have a retort for your dead beat dad, so I guess you got me there. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept "I'm rubber and you're glue..."! :nanner:

 

[overtaker]

running leagues

Originally Posted by Worst_7_ever
Biggest league in America the LO makes 7 figures...thats right over 1 mill. How do i know that? The APA home office told my good friend (who happens to have just bought a franchise here last year) when they had him down in St Louis. I guess they were really trying to show him the upside of the buisness. The area in question is in the Maryland area I believe.




Wow...your an angry LO. All I was saying was what he was told...did I say, or even imply that making money was a bad thing? You really need to try decafe. The APA is a good buisness, and fun for me as I have been to 9 nationals - 6 for 8 ball, 2 for 9 ball, and one for singles. But it also alot of what others have said as well.....every league has both upsides and downsides, thats just the way it is. I would love to see some of the rules change, but I am not gonna stop playing just because the local level here doesnt payout actual cash. I enjoy the "long haul" of trying to get to vegas.

It seems to me that your on auto pilot when it comes to defending everything APA...they really got you to drink the Kool aid. Spend less time blindly arguing your points here, and get back to work, or practicing some 8 ball. The one thing I have noticed about APA LO in general, and thats that they SUCK at the pool table themselves. You know the old saying, those that can do, and those that can't run APA leagues.:wink:

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to
having league operators that can't play pool. There are many of them
that would smoke your ass from dusk till dawn. The one you know might not play so you keep living in your dream world. If you need a game just let me know and I will be happy to hook you up.

 

[Worst_7_ever]

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to
having league operators that can't play pool. There are many of them
that would smoke your ass from dusk till dawn. The one you know might not play so you keep living in your dream world. If you need a game just let me know and I will be happy to hook you up.

................................

 

[Worst_7_ever]

I don't see how you could say I'm blindly defending everything APA. This makes nine or ten posts for me in this thread, and in exactly ONE of them I defended something specific to APA (the requirement for qualified teams to continue playing subsequent sessions). That one was even more of an explanation than a "blind defense". Some were handicapping systems in general. In this particular chain, yes, I am defending a guy who put his nose to the grindstone, lived on mac & cheese for years, and built himself a pretty good business. He happens to be an APA operator, but that's actually irrelevant. You say you weren't implying anything when you made your seven figures comment, but that's not the way it read. I'm not the only one who read it that way - look at the PS at the bottom of CreeDo's reply above.

I don't have a retort for your dead beat dad, so I guess you got me there. Unless, of course, you're willing to accept "I'm rubber and you're glue..."! :nanner:

and the way your reply read to me was that you were upset, and wanted to make a point..thats how it seemed to me. As I told you in my second response..I enjoy playing in the APA. Just because I don't like all there rules doesnt mean i don't play in it.

 

[Worst_7_ever]

Worst_7_ever...In the first place, the national office would only know what the GROSS figure for Terry Justice is...not the net (and they only "might" know that, based on the royalty paid to the national office). That "employee" you speak of would have no idea what Terry puts out in local prize money (hundreds of thousands every year), and they would have NO idea what his annual expenses are, which as already mentioned, are very likely far and above what anyone outside of an APA LO would know about. Terry has been the most successful L.O. in the history of the APA...and that says a lot. You HAVE to keep the players happy or they will leave. When I was in APA nearly 20 years ago, Terry had 1100 teams then. I know he has more now, and has sold off several league areas to others. As for him "clearing" 7 figures...I sincerely doubt it...possibly grossing that much, but his net would be nowhere near a million dollars a year. Even if it was, imo, he deserves it. It's a tough job, and you have to love it (just like any successful business). I'm a successful businessman too, but I spend 200 days a year, on the road, away from my home, to do it. Obviously I like what I do too, or I wouldn't do it, just for the $$$.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

................................

 

[markpatrick]

And remember part of every dollar goes to Terry and Larry

I used to live up in Maryland, so I know that territory very well. Hell, in Baltimore there's practically a bar with a pool table on every other block. Yes, I am aware exactly how much work goes into growing a league, be it APA, BCA, VNEA, etc. So yes, I think if they're not clearing 7 figs, I could.

Sitting back in the lap of luxury, waiting for the dough to come running in every week from all areas of the country, seldom making an appearance and all the while on the APA payroll. 7 figures, if league operators are making 7 figures they might be making 8 figures by now.

Money that could go BACK to the players. I mean how much money do you need to die with anyway.

 

[LeagueGuy]

Sitting back in the lap of luxury, waiting for the dough to come running in every week from all areas of the country, seldom making an appearance and all the while on the APA payroll. 7 figures, if league operators are making 7 figures they might be making 8 figures by now.

Money that could go BACK to the players. I mean how much money do you need to die with anyway.

Another poster who thinks that they know everything. Have you been reading the replies from people who actually might have an idea about the income of a L.O. I would trust that APA LO, APA operator and Scott Lee might have a little bit more insight into it than you.

And while we are generalizing about APA League Operators, why don't we generalize about your type.

You
never want to pay for a table - and yet complain about which free table you get.
spend hours practicing jumping on this free table and then complain the cloth is wearing out.
complain that the tournament you enter has no (or not enough) money added but the don't spend a dime at the pool hall
Complain about the service from the bar becuase your free glass of water takes a few minutes to arrive
I could go on and on becuase i know your type.

Instead of jumping all over those who support the game (and yes, some may make a living off it as well), try supporting the game yourself and the locations that host the game. What the game needs is more APA operators and more Scott Lee's and al ot less of you cheap -------- who only want to take and take and take and give nothing back. The game would be a lot better off without you in it.

 

[Total_Chaos13]

This is exactly why you should contact your league operator before attempting to do the math. If you don't have all the information, it's a futile effort that will leave all of us wondering what is missing.

I'm going to break your reply up so make answering easier. I'm just throwing out numbers from what i see at my local apa region. The Op stated that 20% payout for apa and I was trying to show a simple total in vs total out that will show what my league pays back to the players.

You mentioned trophies, but you didn't assign a dollar amount. With 700 teams and numerous winners, that's a lot of trophies. Trophies, plaques and patches/pins cost quite a bit of money 3 times a year and in big events like city championships.

I didn't mention too much about trophies because only the first place team get one. A 15-25 trophy awarded to the first place team of each divison. Their are around 70 divisions so thats only 2750.00 at 25 each. So 3 grand 3 times a year for less than 10 grand out of the million he is bringing in isnt much in the grand scheme of things.

No mention of individual achievements. Does your 700 team LO really not do any kind of MVP tournaments or awards for top shooters?

Their is an mvp race in each division. 3 brackets for skill levels, 2-3, 4-5, 6-7 for 8. The winner gets an mvp patch. That's it no money or trophy just a patch.

You mention tricup, money cup and city championships as three separate tournaments. The very definition of a tricup is 3 tournaments. Are you absolutely positive there aren't 3 tricups a year and there is one money cup and one city championship?

The tricup title is a misnomer. Its called tri cup because we are called the tri-county area due to the close relationship of the three counties here in my state. Their are 3 tournaments a year you play for. Tricup after summer session, moneycup after fall session and cities after spring, which includes moneycup winners, tricup winners and division winners from spring. So if your goal is to get to Vegas as a team it makes more sense to win spring so you don't have to play the extra games associated with moneycup or tricup.

You mention that only two teams from this 700 team league went to Nationals. That's not even close. I'm only a little over half that size and I send about 10 teams. I'm guessing it's probably closer to 16 or 18 teams.

I'll verify exactly how many teams were sent to Vegas with our APA office.

I'm going to go ahead and call you on the $2500 per team to Nationals, also. You did mention travel, and that's probably right. But, it also costs money to put these players in hotels for the 6 nights the team will be there, and that's a rather hefty expense as well. Especially when you are sending somewhere close to 18 teams.

The 2500 is to help the team cover the hotel and travel costs or just split between the players if they choose not to go to Vegas. The lo doesn't cover the cost of the hotel rooms. They are booked well in advance but they dont pay for them, its the players responsibility.

I have a list of things that I also offer back in the form of cash and prizes, and I wouldn't be surprised if the LO you are doing the math for also has their list of things they pay back in prize money. How many things are missing from the list?

Finally, in a perfect world where one wants to break down the math, there are no holidays, no acts of god that cancel league play and there most certainly aren't any byes. I can't begin to tell you how much uncollected money you have calculated into your theorem for teams that didn't play due to byes in the schedule.

It's nearly impossible to sit there with a calculator to factor in every single prize payout when you are doing it completely blind to every faction of the LO's administration of the league. Heck, I'd have a tough time doing it for myself each year if I didn't track each and every expense all year long.

If someone wants to make it appear as though the LO only paid out 20% or less, it's pretty easy to casually forget some significant sized expenses. I'm not saying you have done this here and that you aren't making an honest attempt to do the math, but I have to say I'm pretty sure you are either forgetting some things or you just aren't aware of things that are missing.

The best person to ask where all the money goes is the LO him/herself. They'd probably be happy to point out all the things they pay out that you might not have even realized they do. They might even have a list of all the things they pay out listed right in their bylaws.

I'm sure there are things that I didn't account for. I didn't even begin to touch his administrative cost as I have no idea what he pays his staff, which by the way is his wife, son and daughter in-law. I didn't include patches, we don't get any pins. There are only 6 patches that he gives out, 8 on the break, 9 on the snap, 8 b-r, 9-br, 20-0, skunk and the mvp. You can only get one per session no matter how many you actually earn, or how many different teams you play on.
All in all i was just trying to so that somewhere in the area of 20% +- 5% seemed about right for my apa region. I'm sure their are some lo's that give more and some give less back to the players. My lo could give back much more to the players but has not incentive too. APA is the only league in the area. He has no competition for players and no reason to give more back when he doesn't have too. In the end he is running a business and why would anyone in business give out more money than they have too.
Like i said before just from reading your posts on AZ you sound like a great lo. I wasn't making this a personal attack at apa or you personally. I enjoy playing apa for the most part as it gives me a chance to meet new people and gives me a reason to want to improve my game. I use to have issues with the sandbagging but i have gotten to a point where i dont care anymore. I'f I play my best game and I get beat then they were the better player regardless of the race. I'm always in search of that that perfect night where the stars aline, I play perfect shape on every ball and make all the shots I know i can make. Until then I'm just a lowly 4 who started as a 2 three years ago trying to better my game.

 

[markpatrick]

I dont know what you are talking about FREE

Another poster who thinks that they know everything. Have you been reading the replies from people who actually might have an idea about the income of a L.O. I would trust that APA LO, APA operator and Scott Lee might have a little bit more insight into it than you.

And while we are generalizing about APA League Operators, why don't we generalize about your type.

You
never want to pay for a table - and yet complain about which free table you get.
spend hours practicing jumping on this free table and then complain the cloth is wearing out.
complain that the tournament you enter has no (or not enough) money added but the don't spend a dime at the pool hall
Complain about the service from the bar becuase your free glass of water takes a few minutes to arrive
I could go on and on becuase i know your type.

Instead of jumping all over those who support the game (and yes, some may make a living off it as well), try supporting the game yourself and the locations that host the game. What the game needs is more APA operators and more Scott Lee's and al ot less of you cheap -------- who only want to take and take and take and give nothing back. The game would be a lot better off without you in it.

In an ideal world, I guess the APA league players get access to a table to practice on and an open table to play their matches? NOT in our area. You pay to practice, you pay to play each game. Nothing is free except a team drink which I used to take but that was on the bar not the APA. I buy buckets and try to enjoy myself. I am having a much better time in Missouri 8 ball where at the end of the session I get some cash back, get a chance to win $6000 three times a year if our team wins the league or the playoffs and only have to win 2 matches to cash out for $1000 bucks. Maybe the issues you point out is in your own league>? Sure not in the St Louis area.

Cheap ***** take a look in the mirror.

Besides, good players do not use break sticks. They use the EZ jumper or know how to kick at any ball and sometimes make time or hit them and hook their opponent and score a defensive shot?

 

[jrt30004]

hasn't this horse been kicked enough? yep. they take your money. yep they don't pay out a lot. yep the sandbaggers are rampant. so what? don't like it? don't play. get screwed in your area? don't play. you don't have to play apa, play another league. don't have others in your area? play tournaments. don't have 'em? start one. but good god give it up already. here in atlanta i can't stand the sandbagging. but we get taken care of pretty well. especially north of the city. a lot of decent tables in ok rooms. tables are free from one hour before start, usually until the places close. we pay something like $30 a year dues, and anywhere from $7 to $9 a week dues per team. until the end of the current session i will be on four teams. i play on almost every team, every week. so i pay $36 a week in fees. i play roughly 20 hours of pool. if i paid table time that would be about $200, i pay $36. i also have a few ridiculous sl 7/9's in my area who i've befriended and i get to hang and shoot with them and they teach me when ever they can. so i also get some free lessons. i like my apa just fine. our LO makes money. how much? don't know. don't care. know why? guy works for it, five days a week and when we have the big singles tournaments or team tournaments he can be there 12 - 13 hours a day all weekend. and he pays out a lot for expenses. office, electricity, phone and fax lines, web site, it people, computers, two employees, his gas to drive around to all the tournaments, and sometimes to some of the locations, are just some of his expenses. i have my own family bsuiness and i know what that stuff costs and it's alot. plus the apa is like the mob. you're not just earning for you. no way, you gotta kick back upstairs or you got problems. the boys in st. louis want their cut. so i've done my math, i save about $164 a week on table time, i get free lessons ($100 an hour when i've had to pay) and to date i've won close to a grand in apa single and team tournaments. i'm good. if your not, quit.

 

[justadub]

In an ideal world, I guess the APA league players get access to a table to practice on and an open table to play their matches? NOT in our area. You pay to practice, you pay to play each game. Nothing is free except a team drink which I used to take but that was on the bar not the APA. I buy buckets and try to enjoy myself.

Once again I must point out that the issues you raise are localized issues, not necessarily consistent everywhere APA is played. (Or any other national league system.) In our league we have all the tables in the place at our disposal on league nights, except for the one place which has over 20 tables, and they still give us all we need and more. (Two weeks ago by some scheduling snafu there were actually four different matches going on at that place on the same evening, so we did have pretty much all the tables, save for one or two.) We never pay for table time on league night, and even those who aren't actually playing that night can use the practice tables as long as they want.

I'm still looking for that free drink, though...

Yes, it does suck that the area where you live, the bar owners make you pay. That isn't the APAs fault, rather the bar owners.

Isn't APA HQ in St.Louis? If you are really that dissatisfied with APA, as it sure seems in your many resposnses, why don't you walk on over and talk to those folks face to face?

You are fortunate that you have an alternative in which to play, and one that seems to make you happy. APA leagues make some people happy, too. Depending on how they are run, of course, and that varies all over the country. It is narrow-minded to assume because it goes badly for you there where you live that it will go badly for me here where I live. And vice versa, of course.

 

[markpatrick]

Isn't APA HQ in St.Louis? If you are really that dissatisfied with APA, as it sure seems in your many resposnses, why don't you walk on over and talk to those folks face to face?

You are fortunate that you have an alternative in which to play, and one that seems to make you happy. APA leagues make some people happy, too. Depending on how they are run, of course, and that varies all over the country. It is narrow-minded to assume because it goes badly for you there where you live that it will go badly for me here where I live. And vice versa, of course.

Yes the APA is based in St Louis, Lake St Louis. A gated high security community.

I will stick with Missouri 8 ball and cease to comment on this issue. I have many friends involved with the APA and that play in that league. They enjoy it. I enjoy having the chance to make a few bucks every 3 or 4 months and play pool with my buddies Ed Libby and Dennis Bullock plus the rest of the team. Plus Ed has a really HOT bar tender which I get to see every other week.

 

[justadub]

Plus Ed has a really HOT bar tender which I get to see every other week.

I'd want to play there, too!

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Couple random thoughts after reading this thread-

- Nobody has mentioned the single qualifier boards. These can pretty much be held by anyone at any time. I don't remember the exact math but I remember it being somewhere around $15 per person. The winner of the tournament doesn't get any money. Just a chance to qualify for vegas at the regionals. They only give out a couple spots and these have to bring in a lot of money. Where does all this money go? I know some goes to the person who wins the regional but I would think that is a small portion.

- At the last cities tournament everybody had to sign a paper that said there skill level is accurate. What if I play my butt off the weeks before the cities tournament and then move over to the 7' tables with the huge pockets? It would help you play above your normal skill. Who is to say you just aren't have the game of your life and then get disqualified. It just seems funny that APA touts the handicap system so much and then makes you sign a paper saying that you should be a certain SL. How the **** should I know my skill level? That is what the equalizer is for.