Archer got screwed
- Thread starter abbassi
- Start date
I wasn't there this time but based on his past performances, I disagree. Guys like Archer are why we have shot clocks. Is he still removing microscopic pieces of lint before shooting? Backing off over and over then taking warm-up strokes like he is sawing through a log?
He is a great player with an undeniable record of top achievement. Truly a hall of famer. And his break is at the top of the game....but don't ever tell me he plays as fast as the average pro. Archer is slow, methodical and needs the clock IMO.
What made this incident so unfair to him?
Do you think Kid Delicious or Jeremy Jones would play as fast as they do without a clock? Some players have the patience to process for a long time before shooting. I for one would like to see them move along.
What about the rhythm of their opponent? Have you ever been "screwed" by the deliberate slow play of your opponent?
I'm not looking for an arguement (again with respect, I wasn't there) but the shot clock does have a place in the game as I see it.
Some guys are so slow it make it unwatchable. Sorry, but that must be eliminated.
Basavich and JJ- perfect examples, Drawman. They can give Archer the last 4.
Basavich and JJ- perfect examples, Drawman. They can give Archer the last 4.
Of course it has a place, if you want to call it a sport....
I've read quite a few accounts from those that were there that say JA was not playing nearly as slow as he's been known to play. According to those that were there, it was uncalled for. Johnny & Kim were playing at a good pace and were ahead of some other matches that were going on at the time.
I do agree that there are times when a shot clock is needed. One single person can hold up a bracket. Players end up waiting much longer than other players to play their match which can cause them to be out of stroke when they get to the table. It certainly isn't fun for the TD & event staff to have to work until late hours in the night or early morning because of a slow player.
Johnny should be very comfortable with the shot clock....he's played on the Mosconi Cup team 12 years. They also use a 30 second shot clock.
Shot clocks belong in the game.
First, let me say I completely agree with everything you said above.
Under normal circumstances and consistent rules but there was nothing consistent about this match.
I was there and saw the whole thing unfold.
The thing that makes me furious is that half the match was played without a shot clock and all of a sudden the shot clock was introduced.
A rhythm that was set up early in the match by both opponents was disrupted when the shot clock was invoked.
The screwy thing was that the clock holder walked away some times giving some players a few extra seconds to play a pattern and at times time was running out after the clock watcher returned.
Nothing consistent was being done at this table.
By that time both players were mentally out of their game and everything going on around them (spectators walking or talking, camera clicks, and loud breaks at adjacent tables) seemed to interfere and ruined both players rhythm.
It was not a fair management of the table and wish things were consistent since the match earlier in the day there was no clock management.
Picture from the match before the clock was invoked…
Attachments
Since the US Open is a WPA world tour stop and sanctioned by the WPA then WPA rules apply.
Rule 6.15 shows that it is OK to introduce a shot clock into a match after it started.
6.15 Slow Play
If the referee feels that a player is playing too slowly, he may advise that player to speed up
his play. If the player does not speed up, the referee may impose a shot clock on that match
that applies to both players. If the shooter exceeds the time limit specified for the tournament,
a standard foul will be called and the incoming player is rewarded according to the rules
applicable to the game being played. (Rule 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct may also apply.)
Now, I don't know if this was actually needed, I was not there nor did I watched via a stream so I can't say anything about that decision other than it is a legal move and up to the referee.
I was completely unaware of the rule - appreciate the education.
Thank You!
The pace of the game was in fact no different over the other matches in play and the actual score was two racks ahead of a table adjacent to the TV table.
Guess they were trying to make up the time since this match started maybe 30-40 minutes later than scheduled (7:00 PM was to be the start time).
The late start was because of a dinner that started at 5:00 PM to have top players attend and mingle with paying guests to get more money into the event.
They were trying to speed things up so the next match could start closer to 9:00 PM (or at least that is what most people in the stands thought).
I was there and I can tell you that the shot clock threw both players off their games.
I don't have a problem with the shot clock but I have a problem with it being used in a random manner. The Archer / Davenport match was 2 games ahead of the next match over - Johnny kept saying that to himself, looking around at the other match scores and stewing over the decision - but someone made the decision. The fact that the match started 30 minutes late wasn't the players' fault, it was the promoter's for having that dinner.
I don't know where the blame for this lies. After snapping the 9 ball in on the last rack to win and shaking Johnny's hand, Kim packed his stuff up very quickly and was walking fast out of the arena. As he walked past Rob Sykora, sitting next to the technical director's table (Accu-stats) he said something to Rob that caused his eyes to widen and he went white. Kim kept right on walking out at a brisk pace and Rob headed out after him.
My guess? The PPV feed pays and has certain time slot for the feed bandwidth. The late start appeared to be causing a possibility that the 2nd game would go past the time allotment and tick off a bunch of paying customers.
My opinion? Tough titty on the time allotment. This is a lousy way to treat the latest hall of famer and someone in the midst of a return to major tournament pool after a devastating injury. And two old friends to boot. Shame on whoever made this call. In the end, the players make the championship. It was a bush league move.
Brian in VA - Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I don't have a problem with the shot clock but I have a problem with it being used in a random manner. The Archer / Davenport match was 2 games ahead of the next match over - Johnny kept saying that to himself, looking around at the other match scores and stewing over the decision - but someone made the decision. The fact that the match started 30 minutes late wasn't the players' fault, it was the promoter's for having that dinner.
I don't know where the blame for this lies. After snapping the 9 ball in on the last rack to win and shaking Johnny's hand, Kim packed his stuff up very quickly and was walking fast out of the arena. As he walked past Rob Sykora, sitting next to the technical director's table (Accu-stats) he said something to Rob that caused his eyes to widen and he went white. Kim kept right on walking out at a brisk pace and Rob headed out after him.
My guess? The PPV feed pays and has certain time slot for the feed bandwidth. The late start appeared to be causing a possibility that the 2nd game would go past the time allotment and tick off a bunch of paying customers.
My opinion? Tough titty on the time allotment. This is a lousy way to treat the latest hall of famer and someone in the midst of a return to major tournament pool after a devastating injury. And two old friends to boot. Shame on whoever made this call. In the end, the players make the championship. It was a bush league move.
Brian in VA - Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
more details please!
Hey alpine, or someone else that watched. What were the details of the shotclock?
I was on Johnny's shoulder when he crushed Parica 11-5, afterwhich JA shook hands with my and bid me adeu as I hit the road back to NC. His play against Jose was not very slow BTW, although of course he did lint pick a bit.
What was the score when it happened? Was one player more responsible for the shot clock being imposed? Did one player seem mre adversely affected than the other? How did the players respond -were both in disbelief? Which ref imposed the shot clock?
At what point did JA allegedly "over-bend" his cue?
Thanks in advance.
Hey alpine, or someone else that watched. What were the details of the shotclock?
I was on Johnny's shoulder when he crushed Parica 11-5, afterwhich JA shook hands with my and bid me adeu as I hit the road back to NC. His play against Jose was not very slow BTW, although of course he did lint pick a bit.
What was the score when it happened? Was one player more responsible for the shot clock being imposed? Did one player seem mre adversely affected than the other? How did the players respond -were both in disbelief? Which ref imposed the shot clock?
At what point did JA allegedly "over-bend" his cue?
Thanks in advance.
KoolKat - The score was tied at 6, to my recollection. Johnny didn't seem to show any emotion at first but Kim was very disturbed. I heard him say to Scott Smith, "So you're going to be in here walking around with that watch?!" and whenever he would rack or approach the table, he would practically be running. KD was clearly pissed about it.
On the cue breaking, Johnny dogged a ball when he was up 10-8 or 10-9 and he brought his cue down to his leg. I was very surprised to see it snap because it wasn't moving very fast and he certainly didn't seem to be trying to express any anger. He had to play the last 2 games with his break cue.
Brian in VA
That's a crying shame. Thanks for sharing Brian.
I can't comment on the righteousness or not of the shot clock being imposed, but it sounds like it had a big impact on the feel of the game.
Whether that additional tension may have contributed to an extra foot-pound of energy on Johnny's cue slap to the leg... Perhaps. What a stinging way to exit the US Open. Maybe Scorpion will put a titanium core in his next shaft... :grin:
SIDEBAR RANT ON PACE OF PLAY AT THE OPEN
The pace of play at the Open is slow and sloooooooower. Some matches had 10-15 minute breaks, seemingly 3 times a match. Many races to 11 took well over 3 hours. One guy, Wong, was out of control slow - playing (and knocking out) TRex. I saw the last hour, or call it the last 3 racks. BETWEEN EVERY ONE OF HIS SHOTS, Wong went back to his table, with Chohan burning eye holes through him. He'd do this as a minimum:
- wipe his hands on a cloth towell
- take an inperceptible sip of water
-wipe his hand on a towell
Often he'd use two towels, one was moist, the other dry. When the match was over and Wong offered his handshake, TRex refused and appropriately stated something like "No, I can't. Not with that pace of play." A # of us on the rail spoke to him, politely but straight forward, that his pace of play was unacceptable. He acknowledged it with a smile. It was strange...
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Anyway, there was a lot of interminable play, I just hate the Kim/Johnny match didn't go down smoothly. But, if Johnny had to pick anyone to lose to, I'd assume it'd be his biz partner and buddy, Kim Davenport.
Kim did great and my hats off to him. He said he practiced 12 hours in totality the week before coming to Chesapeak. Wow.
Wong is excruciating to watch as a spectator and I genuinely feel sorry for the unlucky person that draws him in a tournament. Your list of "minimums" is definitely just a minimum. I recall him lining up every shot from both sides, getting down and taking some warm up strokes, standing back up, walking around the table to look at the shot from the point of view of the pocket. Simply excruciating. His slow play antics at the Open last year generated a thread that your post reminded me of. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=76720
I was at the Open. Saw many, many very very slow players. Why the shot clock in one match out of all the matches when you were down to the last 8 to 10 players. Why not on Thursday when players were were playing 3 to 4 matches in that one day and Johnny finished at 4:45 AM Friday morning. Nobody was using shot clocks then!! Why in that one match between two guys that everyone knows are best of friends and would never intentionally slow play or shark one another. Why so selective?? Poor decision in an otherwise great week of pool.
They needed a clock on the rack. I know trying to get a perfect rack every time added more time to all of the matches than any one's slow play.
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