Archer vs. Strickland

punter said:
I wasn't intimating that you were 20, instead that in general people tend to discount prior generations of players when they really don't have much knowledge of them. No, I'm not an expert, but I saw some of the great players of the 70's and 80's and there were plenty of great ones. The game certainly has changed, pockets are tighter, but you had to have a more powerful stroke to play on the old slow cloth, so I wouldn't say conditions today are tougher. IMO position play today is easier. And granted, today it is much more a worldwide sport.

These kind of discussions can and do go on in all sports.
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I know you weren't insinuating that I was 20, I was just lamenting my age:D . And you are right, comparing different eras is apples to oranges. That is why I think that this is such an interesting discussion. JA and ES are very close in age, though JA didn't enjoy success like Earl did at a really early age. And I do agree with you that overall conditions are easier today for the most part, I think that the talent pool is just worlds deeper now. Hell, it seems like every 16 year old just beats the ghost to death. Freakin whipper-snappers........;)
 
atthecat said:
Earl has a high run of 408 in straight pool!!! I think Johnny is in the high 200s???
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I think I remember that both ran 150 and out in their first straight pool tourney, but once again, I wouldn't think that either has played enough 14.1 to really use that as a fair comparison. 400+ is quite impressive, though. When did Earl do that?
 
I think Earl is a better shotmaker, more naturally talented. Definitely has a nicer game to watch. However, Johnny breaks the balls with much more control. Have they ever matched up?
 
atthecat said:
Earl has a high run of 408 in straight pool!!! I think Johnny is in the high 200s???
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its 204 or 207, i'm too tired to remember right now i will ask him later, JA plays on super tight tables as a rule and nobody is gonna run 400 on a 4" GC and thats what he plays on.
 
muttley76 said:
I know you weren't insinuating that I was 20, I was just lamenting my age:D . And you are right, comparing different eras is apples to oranges. That is why I think that this is such an interesting discussion. JA and ES are very close in age, though JA didn't enjoy success like Earl did at a really early age. And I do agree with you that overall conditions are easier today for the most part, I think that the talent pool is just worlds deeper now. Hell, it seems like every 16 year old just beats the ghost to death. Freakin whipper-snappers........;)
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i was talking to JA about the records he has won and he said it aint gonna happen again cause there aint near asmany of those kinds of events going on. And the Europeans are in the piture now with the PI's. But at the end of the day winning 4 or 6 big tournments dosent define a players ability, it defines how he did on a few events when everything was right.

I see the behind the scenes stuff and nobody here on this thread(no-offence) has a clue whats really going on(There are a few on AZ who do know) and the stress these guys have-I will leave it at that, I have seen if first hand for months on end over many many years traviling and knowing them. That stuff isnt talked about and I sure aint. all the chatter on here is really just that, its not a true reflection of whats happening. There might be 100 people in and around pro pool in America that know what I'm talking about, the wifes/girl friends/familys/players/very few bakers and fewer of friends of the players(champions as in top pro's) and the players are included in that 100 people.

It fun to talk about but, the real storys of why/who/what happened, will never make it to this or any thread here, I havent seen it yet and never will, its best left un said. They have great talent-the champions butr are Kings with out countrys, and that adds up to alot of tough times that weigh in on how they play. And this is just the tip of the ice berg.

respectfully

fatboy
 
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That seven and a half year age difference is almost like half a generation in the pool world. Don't let anyone tell you that Earl beat soft fields in the 1980's and 1990's when he was so dominant. He had to play against the following guys, all in the prime of their careers; BUDDY HALL, MIKE SIGEL, STEVE MIZERAK, Allen Hopkins, Nick Varner, Efren Reyes, Jim Rempe, Jose Parica, Kim Davenport, David Howard, Jim Mataya, Grady Mathews, Keith McCready and many more top players including a young Johnny Archer.

And Earl won more major tournaments than anyone in that time frame. If anything the fields were just as loaded with talent twenty years ago as they are today. In some respects I even think they were stronger fields than we see in current tournaments. If you could take the top fifty or sixty players out of the last U.S. Open and put them side by side with a World Championship field from the mid 80's, it would be hard to pick which one was stronger or deeper.

To put it in the simplest of terms, Earl had the highest gear of all of them. All things being equal, he was the better player. As far as outside distractions, everyone suffers from them. Every pool player I ever met has his own story to tell about the travails of their life. When you show up at a tournament you better to beady to play, it's as simple as that. No one will have any mercy on you if your wife is sick, you just broke up with your girlfriend, you're in the midst of a messy divorce, your car has been repossessed or you are two payments behind on the mortgage.

Head to head, Earl dominated over Johnny early on up until the mid 90's when Johnny finally began to win his share of match ups. Johnny's over all record may be better the last 10-12 years, but he has a way to go to catch up with Earl. Earl's game has definitely slipped the last five years, and Johnny's has not. He is the better player today, no doubt.
 
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Terry Ardeno said:
Earl was born on June 8, 1961.
Johnny was born on Nov 12, 1968.
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Earl is 47??? My my he has aged quite gracefully. I always thought he was in his early 40's.
 
muttley76 said:
While SVB is the hot young gun, don't forget guys like Bergman,Hennessee, etc. And for what it is worth(and I am a bit biased here, since he is a buddy) Stevie Moore is hitting em on par with pretty much anybody.
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Muttley,
Jonathan Pinegar (Hennessee) is more of a gambler than threat in major tournaments. It's my opinion that he doesn't have the mindset to compete in the super elite class of pooldom. Wrong temperment for those conditions.

Jury is still out on Bergman. Way too early to tell if he'll stick with pool long enough to really be a force. Then, if his skill increases that much, will he have the drive and desire to travel the world? Remember, many of the USA's best shooters don't even try to qualify for the WC, let alone commit to traveling to the other side of earth to play against the murderers row of pool. Without SPONSORSHIP from some deep pockets, our very best players will likely keep sticking to the tournaments held here.
 
Renegade said:
Wow, thanks for the stats, Terry. From titles won, it would seem Earl's had more success than Johnny, winning both the WPC and US Open in 3 different decades! Now that's impressive.
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Thats only in those two events. Albeit very big titles.

But in major pro event play and pro points events, like Reno Open and BCA Open etc., Archer has been dominant for a decade plus this new millenium.
Earl wins in spurts, but Archer is so much more consistent.
 
I agree with Jay's assessment of yesterday's champions

jay helfert said:
That seven and a half year age difference is almost like half a generation in the pool world. Don't let anyone tell you that Earl beat soft fields in the 1980's and 1990's when he was so dominant. He had to play against the following guys, all in the prime of their careers; BUDDY HALL, MIKE SIGEL, STEVE MIZERAK, Allen Hopkins, Nick Varner, Efren Reyes, Jim Rempe, Jose Parica, Kim Davenport, David Howard, Jim Mataya, Grady Mathews, Keith McCready and many more top players including a young Johnny Archer.

And Earl won more major tournaments than anyone in that time frame. If anything the fields were just as loaded with talent twenty years ago as they are today. In some respects I even think they were stronger fields than we see in current tournaments. If you could take the top fifty or sixty players out of the last U.S. Open and put them side by side with a World Championship field from the mid 80's, it would be hard to pick which one was stronger or deeper.
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Jay,
Earl, in his prime (1983-2002) really faced the whole generation between Danny DiLiberto and Corey Deuel. So we can also throw in Larry Lisciotti, Ray Martin, Louie Roberts, Mike LeBron, Rodolfo Luat, Leonardo Andam, Francisco Bustamonte, Shannon Daulton, Santos Sambajon, Takeshi Okumura, Kunihiko Takahashi, Danny Medina, Tommy Kennedy, Larry Nevel, "Morro" Paez, Rodney Morris, C.J. Wiley, Jeff Carter, Tony Ellin, Jimmy Reid, Steve Davis, etc. Granted, all the guys he played against in his prime were in varying stages of their development as players, but as you said, certainly nobody he fared against was easy pickings.

I'm an old schooler, like you and SJM. I'll never consent that todays player, pound for pound, is better than the group we mentioned. On par with, yes. Better....as a collective group, no. Although some now have "specialty" skills such as safties and kicking and jumping that developed in more recent times, largely in part to rule changes.

Anyway, getting to two points I want to make.....

1. One MAJOR difference between pool in Earl's heyday and today is in Earl's day, you had maybe 50-75 great players, with maybe an elite 10 or so that were really capable of winning a WC or US Open. Today, we have HUNDREDS of great players from other nations and maybe an elite 50 or more who are capable of winning a super major. So, I am with Muttley that winning that many will never happen again. Too many great players, too many super deep fields. Call it world parity.

2. I left Efren out of my list to save him for this point. Efren played in many U.S. Opens and has won only one, in 1994. He has played in many World 9 Ball Championship tournaments, but he's only won it once, in 1999.
Granted, he has more 8 ball world Championships than Earl, and it's flip 'em as who the greatest one pocket player of all time, Efren or Ronnie Allen.

My point is that Earl was SO dominant a champion that I believe he kept the great Efren from winning more championships. Efren was by FAR the better all-around player. He gets my vote for greatest all-around player in history, with Nick Varner nipping his heels for 2nd. Those two, along with Ed Kelly,Hopkins and Parica, could win at ANY discipline. (Although Hopkins was weak in banks and Parica was weak in 14.1) But Earl Strickland is EASILY the greatest 9 ball TOURNAMENT player of all time.
 
With a neutral racker, neither player being able to comment on the rack or touch it, Earl Strickland would come out on top on any equipment.
 
allprobilliards said:
Thats only in those two events. Albeit very big titles.

But in major pro event play and pro points events, like Reno Open and BCA Open etc., Archer has been dominant for a decade plus this new millenium.
Earl wins in spurts, but Archer is so much more consistent.
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I think earl was banned from some of the UPA events, so that's why he couldn't win more of them. Didn't him and CWilliams fued over him wearing their patch or something?
For my money, Earl was the better player.
 
Jay and Terry made great points, and good insight. I still like earl's high gear-nobody ever had that but earl. Its not the kind of thing anyone could keep doing all the time-but when he was on game over!!! I did see CJ Wiley play like Earl one night against Mark Tadd, Earl is #1 in the high gear dept.
 
Can't someone just come up with the money and pit these two against each other like the color of money of efren vs earl? long race to 101, 8ball, 9ball, 10ball, rotation, whatever......that should put all this discussion to rest!

(and maybe john schmidt vs svb as undercard, pls pretty pls)
 
Renegade said:
Can't someone just come up with the money and pit these two against each other like the color of money of efren vs earl? long race to 101, 8ball, 9ball, 10ball, rotation, whatever......that should put all this discussion to rest!

(and maybe john schmidt vs svb as undercard, pls pretty pls)
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if they played today it would not be close.
archer could spot him and beat him.
 
Holy thread resurrection, Batman! It is an interesting idea...in much the same way it would be to see Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson have one more go at it.

I would likely pick the Pearl, as it seems he has been more active in competitions, but I freely admit I could be wrong about this...
 
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