Archers Not So Comeback and Commentary

[iusedtoberich]

1. Never Forgive & Never Forget
2. Forgive & Never Forget
3. Forgive & Forget

I'm actually between 1 & 2. I think Archer can work his way to number 2. It seems the active majority on this thread are number 1.

That about sums it up.

I'm between 2 and 3. I've went up to a few people over the years and said to them "our debt is wiped clean, merry xmas". Frankly it's way better this way. Even for the person the money is owed to, IMO. Life goes on.

 

[Maniac]

I wonder how many of them would trade places with a pro pool player instead of having to get under sinks and replace old toilets, or dig under houses to repair wiring issues. Did you ever think about that?

The funny thing is that years ago when I might meet a doctor, lawyer or other professional and tell them that I was a pool player, I could tell they almost envied me. Most of them were fascinated to hear what my life was like and never once asked me how much money I made. Crazy huh

You are out-of-touch with blue-collar careers. Rarely does a Master plumber get under sinks or replace a toilet. Nor does a Master electrician ever dig under a house. That's the job of a journeyman or possibly an apprentice. My son-in-law is a Master plumber, makes a six-figure salary every year and rarely ever has to leave his house. A computer is all he needs to do his job. Stays home with his wife and family probably 15 or 16 of the 20 working days every month. No travelling, no entry fees, no eating out most meals, and most of all, none of the bullshit that comes with generally being a pool player. I seriously do not believe the life of a pool player is glamorous at all.

And I can assure you, my son-in-law would never trade places with any pool player on the planet.

Do more research on Master plumbers.

 

[krelldog]

Maniac...Completely agree. Sometimes I lose perspective that a majority of the posters on this site are completely out of touch with reality.

All I can do is laugh at Jay's disdain and complete disgust for people working in the trades. What a complete narcissist to think that lawyers and doctors envy him, and in his words "would love to trade places". This is the danger of buying into the pool world. Your surrounded with complete dysfunction and you quickly fall into this abyss of self destruction.

In an earlier reply to a post I suggested JA should go to plan B and get a job....and the majority sentiment was in disagreement. Any man worth his salt will work to provide and protect for him and his family. Unless your a pool player....What does a large pizza have over a pool player ? It can feed a family of four.

 

[smiling_Hans]

You are out-of-touch with blue-collar careers. Rarely does a Master plumber get under sinks or replace a toilet. Nor does a Master electrician ever dig under a house. That's the job of a journeyman or possibly an apprentice. My son-in-law is a Master plumber, makes a six-figure salary every year and rarely ever has to leave his house. A computer is all he needs to do his job. Stays home with his wife and family probably 15 or 16 of the 20 working days every month. No travelling, no entry fees, no eating out most meals, and most of all, none of the bullshit that comes with generally being a pool player. I seriously do not believe the life of a pool player is glamorous at all.

And I can assure you, my son-in-law would never trade places with any pool player on the planet.

Do more research on Master plumbers.

You could be right but you must admit Jay is different and he has some good stories.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Where to start? First of all the way you find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. There are caveats to this as well. A good con man might borrow small money and repay you, and later when he has gained your trust borrow a much larger amount and never repay you. And then there are the outright scammers, like Bernie Madoff who conned millionaires (doctors, lawyers and other sucessful businessmen) out of huge sums of money. My attitude has always been that if the deal looks too good to be true, then it probably isn't! If someone offers me (and they have) a 50% return on my money in three months that is enough for me to know it's no good. Think about it. If there was a deal that good, why do they need me? And why would they share that with me? Answer - they wouldn't!

Even well educated men sometimes fall victim to their own greed. There is no such thing as easy money.

And let's be honest, we've all been A-Holes at one time or another. So be careful about condemning others. As most who know me would say I hold personal honor in the highest regard. Our word must be our bond. But I will confess here publicly, that in a weak moment in my life at a very tender age, I was convinced to participate in a fixed match. I was guaranteed the win if I agreed to split the profits. It was more money that I had at the time and I went for it. Without telling the whole story it turned out to be a disaster and I almost got my ass kicked, which I so rightly deserved. Lucky for me I learned my lesson and never took part in any nefarious schemes again. Yes, we were all young and dumb once!

As for Johnny he has been a personal friend of mine since his youth. We always got along well and I enjoyed his company. He has a wacky sense of humor that I happen to enjoy. Of course we never had any money dealings other than my paying out prize money to him many times. When he won the first Los Angeles Open in 1992 Johnny won $21,000, which was paid by check from me. He cashed that check the same day he got it! No problem. Pool made him fairly well to do (middle class wealthy) at one point in his life and he decided to invest in the purchase of a large poolroom in his native Georgia. He phoned me and we discussed the deal, since he knew I had a couple of very successful poolrooms. When he told me how much his share (the primary owners share 60%) would cost him (a healthy six figures) I asked him if he had that much capital to make such an investment. His answer was yes, if he used all his savings and took out a second mortgage on his home. My response to him was that it was not a good idea for him to invest that heavily. I told him not to put all his apples in one basket. My advice was to never invest more than 1/4 to 1/3 of your capital into any one deal. That way you are not wiped out if it fails.

This is a very good life lesson for all. ANY investment can go sideways, and it's usually the "sure thing" that will wipe you out. I kind of suspected this is how it went down, because this is almost always the way it goes down when someone gets wiped out. They go all in without enough information.

We all know what happened. His investment went sideways, due to his inaptitude as a businessman and poor oversight of the money flow. Johnny was wiped out! All that he had obtained over the course of twenty years was gone and he needed to start over. Sadly he has never regained his footing and time has only made him more desperate. And desperate men do desperate things. In my life I've seen far worse than what Johnny has done here. That is not to excuse him though. Johnny has lost his moral compass and he is the big loser here, not Oscar.

If any of you are in JA's boat, the best advice someone could ever give you is to see a financial planner before you embark on any adventures with money that have been hard earned and even harder to replace. People have mentioned master craftsmen in this thread..If you have a well paying career like that, you could always rebuild, even from a near catastrophic loss. It's much harder for a person in sports who in the twilight of his/her career. I hope for JA's sake that he can leverage some of his experience/knowledge to a job that can get him back on his feet.

There are people who owe me money right now, some small and some significant. What they have in common is they broke their promise to repay me. A couple of them are also well known in the billiard industry, who will remain nameless here. And yes, they all have an excuse. How does that make me feel, other than knowing that they can't be trusted? In a nutshell it's this. I'd rather be on my side of it then theirs!

I never lend money to my friends. I'd rather give them the money and then never, ever mention it again. I always envision people using this kind of money in the stupidest way possible, in order to avoid disappointment. Maybe it's cynical, but I prefer to see myself as a naive guy who got tricked one time too many..

Thanks for your time.

Good post as always.

 

[jay helfert]

Even well educated men sometimes fall victim to their own greed. There is no such thing as easy money.

This is a very good life lesson for all. ANY investment can go sideways, and it's usually the "sure thing" that will wipe you out. I kind of suspected this is how it went down, because this is almost always the way it goes down when someone gets wiped out. They go all in without enough information.

If any of you are in JA's boat, the best advice someone could ever give you is to see a financial planner before you embark on any adventures with money that have been hard earned and even harder to replace. People have mentioned master craftsmen in this thread..If you have a well paying career like that, you could always rebuild, even from a near catastrophic loss. It's much harder for a person in sports who in the twilight of his/her career. I hope for JA's sake that he can leverage some of his experience/knowledge to a job that can get him back on his feet.

I never lend money to my friends. I'd rather give them the money and then never, ever mention it again. I always envision people using this kind of money in the stupidest way possible, in order to avoid disappointment. Maybe it's cynical, but I prefer to see myself as a naive guy who got tricked one time too many..

Good post as always.

The best way to lose a friend is to loan them money! Don't ever forget that.
At this point in time I never loan anyone, including family, money any more. If I ever give them anything I treat it as a GIFT, never to be repaid.

 

[jay helfert]

You are out-of-touch with blue-collar careers. Rarely does a Master plumber get under sinks or replace a toilet. Nor does a Master electrician ever dig under a house. That's the job of a journeyman or possibly an apprentice. My son-in-law is a Master plumber, makes a six-figure salary every year and rarely ever has to leave his house. A computer is all he needs to do his job. Stays home with his wife and family probably 15 or 16 of the 20 working days every month. No travelling, no entry fees, no eating out most meals, and most of all, none of the bullshit that comes with generally being a pool player. I seriously do not believe the life of a pool player is glamorous at all.

And I can assure you, my son-in-law would never trade places with any pool player on the planet.

Do more research on Master plumbers.

Thank you for this. I am well aware that becoming a licensed plumber or electrician is a good job choice. Same goes for other job skills like auto mechanic, body shop repair, computer repair and many more similar types of employment. Probably better than most college degrees for being able to always earn a good living, and there is not nearly as much schooling involved, sometimes only a year or less to become an apprentice. I see and hear about way too many college grads who cannot find a decent job, and might be driving for UPS or Uber (both of which pay more than what most pro pool players make in a year). True that!

I'd like to add one thing to this conversation. For most, if not all, professional pool players and those that aspire to be one, it is never just about the money. There is a love for the game and a desire to be one of the best that drives them. All these guys are fully aware that only the very best are earning good money from playing pool, probably not more than a dozen or so like that. These guys wouldn't trade their quest for a job, any job!

I take my hat off to them. They are doing what they love and for them it is not work. I made a good living running poolrooms and often worked 60+ hours a week doing it. For me it was time well spent and I enjoyed almost every minute of it. It was never boring!

Last thing. I had a chance to be a doctor or anything else I desired as a young man, but I wanted to play pool and not spend any more time in school. For many years I never had more than a few thousand dollars to my name and I was a successful pool player. Well known players of that era used to come to me to borrow ten or twenty dollars because they knew I was always holding good. In the end it all worked out okay for me. I got a great "poolroom" education that has held me in good stead ever since, and I found a way to make a decent living at the game. No complaints here.

 

[garczar]

Maniac...Completely agree. Sometimes I lose perspective that a majority of the posters on this site are completely out of touch with reality.

All I can do is laugh at Jay's disdain and complete disgust for people working in the trades. What a complete narcissist to think that lawyers and doctors envy him, and in his words "would love to trade places". This is the danger of buying into the pool world. Your surrounded with complete dysfunction and you quickly fall into this abyss of self destruction.

In an earlier reply to a post I suggested JA should go to plan B and get a job....and the majority sentiment was in disagreement. Any man worth his salt will work to provide and protect for him and his family. Unless your a pool player....What does a large pizza have over a pool player ? It can feed a family of four.

You know how a poolplayer can get better gas mileage?? Take the 'Dominos' sign off the roof.

 

[Badpenguin]

You are out-of-touch with blue-collar careers. Rarely does a Master plumber get under sinks or replace a toilet. Nor does a Master electrician ever dig under a house. That's the job of a journeyman or possibly an apprentice. My son-in-law is a Master plumber, makes a six-figure salary every year and rarely ever has to leave his house. A computer is all he needs to do his job. Stays home with his wife and family probably 15 or 16 of the 20 working days every month. No travelling, no entry fees, no eating out most meals, and most of all, none of the bullshit that comes with generally being a pool player. I seriously do not believe the life of a pool player is glamorous at all.

And I can assure you, my son-in-law would never trade places with any pool player on the planet.

Do more research on Master plumbers.

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall sentiment, but you don't become a master plumber/electrician/anything without putting in the decades of grunt work first.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

He was on the omega stream yesterday. Not a great look.

 

[Lock Doctor]

God can we give archer a break. He’s a hall of famer. One of the greats and he’s going through a lot of shit. he’s financially on his ass. He’s recently divorced. He’s fighting for custody for his kids. Pool is all he knows and he’s trying to earn a living again and dig himself out of a hole. He’s human man who’s going through the struggles of life Just like we all do. His stress levels are probably off the charts now I feel for the guy and hope he can find a way out of it. D

I agree with everything you just said. Having agreed with you I'm going to add, no matter what you are going through, take accountability for yourself and your actions. Be honest and communicate with Oscar. Send him $5.00 a month if nothing else. Of course your family comes first but that doesn't absolve you of your other responsibilities. And lastly, if you don't have the friggin money then don't bet!

 

[maha]

a 100,000 a year salary is about double that of the average state. 50 bucks an hour.
that is a good salary but not being a huge success by any means money wise.

most electricians and plumbers make less than 60,000 a year.

 

[BasementDweller]

One question we'll probably never know the answer to is -- did Archer think he couldn't lose? There certainly was a time that Archer was clearly the best American player. I was quite surprised how quickly he slid down the rankings. Meanwhile, Oscar really had a much longer improvement span than most players. He just seemed to keep getting a little better with age. Anyway, I wonder if Archer's pride put him into a game he thought he couldn't lose. That could have been step one in this whole ordeal.

 

[Flakeandrun]

I agree with everything you just said. Having agreed with you I'm going to add, no matter what you are going through, take accountability for yourself and your actions. Be honest and communicate with Oscar. Send him $5.00 a month if nothing else. Of course your family comes first but that doesn't absolve you of your other responsibilities. And lastly, if you don't have the friggin money then don't bet!

Right, I agree with this, whether it takes weeks, months or years. Most people are understanding when it comes to receiving their money owed in any form. Stiffing someone completely is always going to cause a problem. It's not like two unknowns playing with some gang gang level funds. It's two recognized pros, and given the amount that some people are happy to bet, not an enormous amount.

 

[maha]

basically if you dont pay a legitimate bet you are a stiff and i would consider a lowlife as long as it was uncontested.
lots of pool players have done that. all part of the game if you dont post the money.

if the money is posted or paid to the player to give to the winner from the backers, then that isnt stiffing the guy for the money it is stealing.
and would be a felony criminal offense if true.
physically taking money that is not yours is different than not paying a debt.

although there are always two sides to a story. did the backers make the bet, then they owe the money.

 

[Flakeandrun]

basically if you dont pay a legitimate bet you are a stiff and i would consider a lowlife as long as it was uncontested.
lots of pool players have done that. all part of the game if you dont post the money.

if the money is posted or paid to the player to give to the winner from the backers, then that isnt stiffing the guy for the money it is stealing.
and would be a felony criminal offense if true.
physically taking money that is not yours is different than not paying a debt.

although there are always two sides to a story. did the backers make the bet, then they owe the money.

True, having the money in hand, and not delivering it is another level of BS. I would still apply my above comment though. Negotiate, work something out, these are recognized pros. they are not no names playing with dodgy or dirty money. Wonder if he would have shirked payment if it was a shady game? Little Internet drama VS a few broken fingers lol Not sure OD would mind all too much if it took a couple months, or a year, not like he's living hand to mouth

 

[skogstokig]

One question we'll probably never know the answer to is -- did Archer think he couldn't lose? There certainly was a time that Archer was clearly the best American player. I was quite surprised how quickly he slid down the rankings. Meanwhile, Oscar really had a much longer improvement span than most players. He just seemed to keep getting a little better with age. Anyway, I wonder if Archer's pride put him into a game he thought he couldn't lose. That could have been step one in this whole ordeal.

we know that he didn't go there with air in his pockets. so must have pondered the possibility of a loss. as for archers prime and pride, he had tapered off a decade before the match. maybe the pride hadn't

 

[Maniac]

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall sentiment, but you don't become a master plumber/electrician/anything without putting in the decades of grunt work first.

I can only speak for the four plumbers in my immediate family. One is a Master plumber, the other three are journeymen. My son-in-law, a very hard-working and committed individual, became a Master plumber inside of five years. Any person motivated enough can do this.

All four of them make better money (yearly) than the AVERAGE pool player (at least the one's on the 2023 money list).

 

[Maniac]

most electricians and plumbers make less than 60,000 a year.

You have to be in the world's top 30 players to make that kind of money.

Don't forget to exclude all of the outgoing $$$ associated with pro pool.

Hell, Jung-Lin Chang, considered one of the world's best, barely made a plumbers salary last year.

 

[krelldog]

Most of my friends are trades guys. They do very well. They have unlimited side work...they turn down more than they take.

People from normal walks of life understand this. When your surrounded with "pool room people" not so much.

I worked in water treatment...retired with a fat pension at 52. Now I have a second career....which pays very well.

The message here...Skilled jobs pay well. Hard work pays off, and when you have a skill....your marketability only increases as you get older..

I've always liked JA as a fan. Its not fun to watch his demise. However he still has the ability to recreate himself. House Pro/Lessons/Appearances. He was always well liked (that I know)... I'm sure there are pool industry jobs that love star power.

I wish JA the best...Pool is a better place with a healthy Johnny Archer.