Are Elite Athletes Born or Made

JoeyA said:
So I vote ELITE athletes are BORN, and don't have to work as hard as other non-Elite athletes to obtain the same level of skill. If they (elite athletes) work harder than their specialty gene counterparts, there is no contest.



JoeyA
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The difference between very good and elite is mental. The motivation to excell is unique to each individual and it is the desire and belief that determines how quickly and how far an athlete can grow their talent level. I trained bjj with twins who were elite athletes. They were identical twins and we're both gifted genetically to be great. They trained every day in the same classes and they did the same workouts but still there was one of them who progressed faster and farther than the other did. These were identical twins who progressed at different levels which proves to me that a scientist can not conclude that two athletes who train together and progress differently do so because of genetics.


http://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ken-Jackson-16275

http://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Mike-Jackson-16281
 
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(((Satori))) said:
The difference between very good and elite is mental. The motivation to excell is unique to each individual and it is the desire and belief that determines how quickly and how far an athlete can grow their talent level. I trained bjj with twins who were elite athletes. They were identical twins and we're both gifted genetically to be great. They trained every day in the same classes and they did the same workouts but still there was one of them who progressed faster and farther than the other did. These were identical twins who progressed at different levels which proves to me that a scientist can not conclude that two athletes who train together and progress differently do so because of genetics.


http://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Ken-Jackson-16275

http://m.sherdog.com/fighter/Mike-Jackson-16281
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Not that I disagree with what you are saying, but your example is flawed. Those identical twins are only called that. They are not really identical. One is an inch taller than the other. Which means, there may be something else different between them that makes one better than the other. In the records of them on your links, they look pretty much the same. One has two more fights than the other. And, the one behind on fights will be the same record if he loses his next two fights.

Truth is, we don't yet know if some have a special talent for playing pool. I doubt they do. I do know some have special talents for certain things. Some are musical, others mathematical, others nurturing, others teaching, ect. Running is not a talent, it's genetic and training. Depends a lot on lungs, heart efficiency, and muscle fiber make-up.
 
Neil said:
Not that I disagree with what you are saying, but your example is flawed. Those identical twins are only called that. They are not really identical. One is an inch taller than the other. Which means, there may be something else different between them that makes one better than the other. In the records of them on your links, they look pretty much the same. One has two more fights than the other. And, the one behind on fights will be the same record if he loses his next two fights.

Truth is, we don't yet know if some have a special talent for playing pool. I doubt they do. I do know some have special talents for certain things. Some are musical, others mathematical, others nurturing, others teaching, ect. Running is not a talent, it's genetic and training. Depends a lot on lungs, heart efficiency, and muscle fiber make-up.
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Those stats are innaccurate. They are the same height plus they both have more fights than that.
 
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Okay..the wife thing. She can't bowl nor swing a bat. Can't hit a golf ball nor carry a tune. Driving...scary to me. Walking...definitely like a drunk. Need I go on? Mitch
 
plfrg said:
First, pool is a sport. It belongs in the category of aiming sports with others such as shooting, archery, and golf....
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...and throwing pebbles into a coffee can, and cornhole, and the dunk booth at the carnival.
 
Celtic said:
If you take 100 babies from birth, raise them in nearly identical fashion, put them all into rigorous training for the same sport where shear size is not an overwhelming factor to success (like basketball and being 5 foot 9) after 20 years some of those kids would be "great" at that chosen sport.

BUT you are going to have a statistically normal curve showing that most of those 100 kids fall into a central lump of fairly strong play, some of those kids despite being brought up in the game are going to be lower then the curve, there will be an outlier or two way below the curve that simply could not do it and who never played at the speed of the norm, and there will be one or two outliers at the top of the curve who simply rose faster then all of the other kids, they showed dominance early and as the training progressed their skills increased far faster then the norm and they pulled farther and farther away from the pack.

You cannot simply dedicate 10,000 hours into something and be a pro. If you could I WOULD go play golf for 10,000 hours and become a pro, I would LOVE to have that life. But I know for an absolute fact that in that game that 10,000 hours simply would not get me even close to the lower ranks/tours of pro level golf. I might be a 70-something golfer after that time, single digit handicap, and for me that would be outstanding, but it would still completely suck compared to the pros.
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Any one can be good at any sport when they dedicate that much time for it. The only advantage early starters have is they already master the techniques, and their brain is ready to soak additional knowledge for other tactics to win; but loose some of the hunger to win! so it is a racing game. With a bit of luck (on those games that needs it) a new dedicated player at one point could get on top??
 
Neil said:
Not that I disagree with what you are saying, but your example is flawed. Those identical twins are only called that. They are not really identical. One is an inch taller than the other. Which means, there may be something else different between them that makes one better than the other. In the records of them on your links, they look pretty much the same. One has two more fights than the other. And, the one behind on fights will be the same record if he loses his next two fights.

Truth is, we don't yet know if some have a special talent for playing pool. I doubt they do. I do know some have special talents for certain things. Some are musical, others mathematical, others nurturing, others teaching, ect. Running is not a talent, it's genetic and training. Depends a lot on lungs, heart efficiency, and muscle fiber make-up.
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I do hear what you are saying. "Identical" twins born with exactly the same dna code are not genetically the same.

While I can promise you the twins I presented are exactly the same size I realize there are instances where identical twins have grown to different heights. However this is more proof that champions are made and not born. This is evidence that the scientific research showing that genes are regulated through environmental factors such as nutrition and also thoughts, beliefs, and emotions is true. The fact that thoughts, beliefs, & emotions lead to a physical change on a person makes me even more convinced that the mental factors play a big part in separating the Champions and the rest of the field.

Here is a book by Dr Lipton explaining how thoughts and beliefs turn genes on and off.
 
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Anybody here seen the 30 for 30 about Bo Jackson? It'll make you realize that some people are born to be great.
 
easy-e said:
Anybody here seen the 30 for 30 about Bo Jackson? It'll make you realize that some people are born to be great.
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Best 30 for 30 ever. Bo even said he had a weight room just for looks and had a arm like a rifle and legs like a deer even as a kid and God blessed him with all those tangibles that he had to be great
 
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one stroke said:
Im relatively sure not all theses students / players made it to elite status ,,, even though they have followed the exact same steps as the ones before them
Why? Because we are not all created equal !


1
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Of course we're all not created equal. Elite status in anything, is it defined as the top 1 person in something? Top .1% of people? Elite anything is never a single solution. Coyle talks about "born with it" vs "developed".

MJ, Tiger, Gretzky, Tom Brady, SVB, Ronnie O'Sullivan - THEE top of their respective games. Likely very good in other areas but why the #1? It isn't because they were born with the Hoops/Swing/Skate/Throw/Stroke and only that - in different degrees, they had the inspiration and were lead/directed to greatness. And they practice correctly.

In his book, he talks about a crap tennis club in Russia, one/two indoor court, has produced more top-20 women players than the entire US in what he calls the 'recent years'. Spartak Tennis club.

There is a section regarding music that is pretty compelling information about deep practice.

If anyone that coaches/teaches hasn't given this a read through - you should.
 
Elite athletes can be born or made. There are examples of Olympic medalists who have less than average physical ability (for their sport) and yet made it to the highest levels. There are also examples of phenoms who blazed their way quickly to the top and the flared out because they didn't have the work ethic or dedication to really be great.

Great athletes - level of Tiger, John Elway, Gretzky, etc...are born AND made. They start with the raw talent and have someone teaching and coaching them from a young age.

If Tiger first picked up a golf club at the age of 12 we probably never would have heard of him. Even if he spent the next 10 years and put in his 10,000 hours chasing the dream of being a professional golfer.
 
They are always made.

People are born with certain qualities. If a person can be born with defects that fall below average then people can be born with qualities that are above average.

But that is only the raw material. Champions are made from the raw material and the person who has the best eyesight might not have the desire to train harder. He might not have the temperament to stay steady under pressure.

Champions are made but they are not all made of the same stuff. One thing seems to be holding steady in the world of sports and well the world in general, those who practice harder and deeper for longer know more and win more than those who don't. Finding a situation where an elite athlete did NOT put in more time and more focus and go to extraordinary lengths in training is extremely rare.
 
SakuJack said:
You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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Finding a situation where a person is an elite athlete and they did NOT put in more time and deeper practice and extraordinary practice than their competitors is extremely rare.

In other words talent predicts that some people excel with less practice. But the reality is that it's very rare to find that a person reaches elite status having put in less time than other world class competitors.
 
Babe Ruth trained on booze, tobacco, and women. The championship Jets trained on booze and drugs, I know because I partied with them a lot. Johnnyt
 
If they don't have the raw material they can't possibly be made
Tattoo was never going to be a tennis ,gymnastic , golf , football ,Baseball ,Basketball or any other sports star ,, don't care who coached him the best he could do was be best known for saying Da plane Da plane


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