Are LD shafts really alot better?

It's a popular question, but in a nutshell:

Any type of shaft will do IF you just stick with it for a while. Sort of like how even an ugly stroke can work if you've been doing it the same way for 20 years.

Just don't base your opinion on a good night or even a good week. Sometimes the balls break nice, every shot is easy, and you're just on fire in terms of speed control or shotmaking or your decisions and attitude.

I don't think LD is any "nicer" in construction or quality, in fact I think they're a little more likely to fall apart and break. They just change where you have to aim when englishing a shot. To some people that line of aim makes sense and feels good, and to others who have been hitting with higher deflection for years, it just doesn't feel right.
 
I have never used a LD shaft...

I was told that one of the main reasons people use them is the consistancy between shafts. Meaning that a Predator shaft (of the same type) will be the same. So if you are on tour, and your shaft breaks, gets stolen, whatever... then you have another one... no big deal.

Is this an accurate statement?
 
JMW said:
As far as LD shafts, over the years I have purchased and tried the 314, 314-2, Z, OB-1 and OB-2. I now play with the OB classic and it is the first LD shaft that does not feel hollow or dead to me. Plays great and feels great. I am very pleased with this shaft.
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im thinking about picking up a OB classic, hows the taper on it and tip diameter? i have an ob-1 and a black dot already.
 
Llama said:
I have never used a LD shaft...

I was told that one of the main reasons people use them is the consistancy between shafts. Meaning that a Predator shaft (of the same type) will be the same. So if you are on tour, and your shaft breaks, gets stolen, whatever... then you have another one... no big deal.

Is this an accurate statement?
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I hadn't heard of that. It might be a reason to get one, but I dunno that it's a big part of it. Do players really carry an identical shaft at all times just in case of breakage?

I think if you play in a pro tournament with a predator or ob, you can probably close your eyes and throw a rock and hit someone else with the same shaft. Maybe they'd let you borrow it :P

As far as I know, the main reason they get these shafts is they read/heard it will make shooting shots with sidespin easier and they infer that they'll miss less. I don't know if anything else like manufacturing consistency even goes into it. I definitely didn't factor that in when I bought an LD shaft.
 
I use to have a Predator P2 w/ a 314 shaft and for quite a while it was the best cue ever. I could easily put on English as well as Draw and Top. It made it somewhat effortless compared to a maple shaft. It helped me learn alot of things I couldn't do with a maple shaft. After a couple years though that effortlessness made me lazy. I could just poke at the ball to get spin, so there was no need for a good stroke and many times it screwed me over. I got lazy, it was my fault, but my solution was to go back to a non-LD shaft. So I went the custom cue route, and now I prefer a solid hitting 13mm shaft and I haven't looked back.

As others have said it can be tough to switch. For me it was tough leaving the LD shaft because if I didn't stroke I didn't get the action I was trying. Switching made me concentrate more on my stroke which helped me step my game up. I can do everything with a stiff hitting cue that I could do w/ the LD shaft, so its really a personal preference thing. Do what feels good and works for you.
 
PaulieB said:
Most of the people on these forums would give 6 of their teeth to be able to shoot one ball better. You brought out that Viking and you said you shot GREAT with it...

Worrying about LD shafts is one thing, but what everyone has to realize, even the LD fans, is that all an LD shaft means is you have to adjust LESS when using left or right english. Going from a non LD shaft to an LD shaft is an adjustment, just like going from an LD shaft to a non LD shaft. Basically, if you shoot with a mop handle and you get really good with it, changing to anything else is a HUGE adjustment. This is no different than the folks that worry about perfect alignment yet compare themselves to the pros strokes ... the pros have put so much time in that their strokes are their strokes and it doesn't matter about mechanics.

Anyways, if you play a game that uses little left or right english, the Viking may hit better for you. The LD fans seem to forget that the ONLY TIME that LD matters is when you are using left or right spin. You could be playing your entire game with draw/follow/stop.. in which case LD shafts mean NOTHING.
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I had a lot of conventional shafts.I also had Z2,I2,314 2, OB2 and now I play with a Dominator II and they all draw and follow better than a conventional one. In my opinion is hard to actually hit the very center of the cue ball. So if you hit 1/2 tip right the LD shafts are more forgiving. Whenever you go high or low on the cue ball, actually hitting the center is tougher.
 
LD is probably state of the art. My next player which is being made will be LD. it is the cuemakers LD So it should hit better.

I personally have hit both and generally prefer good nonLD SHAFTS, for the hit and fit to my aim style.
 
This is a good thread with lots of good information here.

Obviously, as the maker of the OB shafts, I'm an LD guy so everyone can already guess what my opinions are. Let me share a few things that aren't really opinion.

Accuracy.
Yes, you do have to adjust for squirt with all off center (left or right) shots. Some more than others. Where LD makes a difference is in the Margin of Error. If you have to adjust for 3" of squirt for a given shot with a high squirt cue shaft and make a 10% error you miss by .3", which is more than enough to miss most shots. If you make the same 10% error with a LD shaft where the adjustment is 1", then your error is much less at .1" and you are much more likely to still pocket the ball. It's the same concept behind cavity backed golf clubs.

Consistency
When you assemble several separate pieces of wood into the same configuration, different assemblies will have the same characteristics. Basically, the construction takes over from the properties of the materials. This provides for more consistency from shaft to shaft. When you assemble those components in a manner to provide "Radial" consistency, you also make the cue shaft more consistent with regards to it's orientation. No matter how it's rotated when you shoot. Solid maple is stiffer in one direction than when turned 90 degrees to that same direction.

Players
I won't say who, as I don't have his specific permission, but I have a statement from a very, very prominent player. We were having dinner after the Valley Forge tournament several years ago, and Don Owen, my business partner, asked him this question. If you could name one thing that has made it more difficult to make a living playing pool, what would it be? His answer, very quickly, was Low Deflection shafts. He followed this with an explanation. He said that before LD shafts, there was a small number of very good players, and he had a much better chance of cashing in almost every tournament. Since LD shafts have come to be, there are many more players who, although they may not compete at the highest level, now play much better and make it much more difficult to not make it to the cash rounds. This player is not American and has to travel here to play tournaments, so his travel expenses make it tough for him to just break even. He was then, and is still now, a top level player.


So, certainly LD shafts are not for everyone, and that's fine. Not everyone likes wraps, or steel joints, or heavy cues or light cues either. Most don't even like the same tips! That's why we have choices.
 
I've been thinking about this for a long time, and have refrained from posting it until now.

What is Low Deflection?

What we're really talking about here is "Cue Ball Squirt". Squirt is what happens when you hit the cue ball off center. If you hit the left of the cue ball, the line the cue ball travels down will be at a slight angle to the right. The opposite is true if you hit it on the right, the cue ball line will be to the left. This is Cue Ball Squirt.

How does it do this?
Squirt is caused by the difference of "Effective Tip End Mass" of the cue shaft as compared to the mass of the cue ball. The less ETIM, the lower the cue ball squirt. Shaft stiffness doesn't really come into play. While it's true that a stiff shaft could raise the ETIM, the cue ball is long gone from the tip by the time this effect could take place. So a true LD shaft has to have been engineered to reduce the Tip End Mass.

So, whats the difference?
High LD shafts, or really high Squirt shafts will increase this angle. Low LD or Squirt shafts will reduce this angle. That's it! No special curves or "Mojo", it just makes for a different aiming point. There simply is less of an angle to have to compensate for. What it all comes down to is your errors are smaller due to a smaller adjustment in the first place. Your errors are magnified much less meaning you pocket more balls.

Are there really that many LD shafts out there?
There are many cue shafts that claim to be LD. Most do have less cue ball squirt than an off the shelf conventional shaft, but the question is by how much? Unless significant steps have been taken to reduce the Tip End Mass, they simply can't reduce the cue ball squirt very much. They can still claim LD, but you really need to look at the construction and ask yourself how the Tip End Mass is reduced. Laminated shafts don't do anything to reduce cue ball squirt. It's all in the design of the tip end what has been done to reduce mass without sacrificing the integrity of the cue shaft.

So, if you're in the market for a low Squirt or LD shaft, just look for yourself and ask "what steps have been taken to reduce the Tip End Mass".

At OB Cues, we make very low "Squirt" cue shafts of all different types and sizes to suit just about any taste.
 
Terrific posts RBC. Since I like the feel of a maple shaft I have narrowed my choices down to the OB classic and the WD700 or HP2. From what I've read they are low deflection with the feel of a maple shaft. Is this accurate?
 
Damn this "shake to reply" function on this app....I didn't even mean to reply lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If one reads Predators U S Patent they state that you can not change deflection, that you can only change deflection relative to the line of stroke. The spinning mass and friction are physics that can not be changed. What changes is the direction the front of the shaft is actually going during contact time with the cue ball relative to the line of stroke. Lower frontal mass allows for this change. Simply going to a smaller diameter ferrule size will effectively lower squirt the same as creating a hole in the middle of a larger diameter shaft. So, stated again, squirt does not change, only squirt relative to the line of stroke.
As already stated, the biggest difference between a one piece shaft and a radially laminated shaft is radial consistency. No matter what direction the shaft is oriented to the cue ball the resistance to flex is about the same. Meucci tried to dispute this when laminated shafts first came out... and lost. That is why he came out with the Red Dot shafts. He simply found the hard spine direction of the shaft and put a dot there, and charged much more money for the shaft and then stated the incorrect way in which to put the dot to advantage.
I have been making 6-pie laminated ld shafts for over 13 years. They are engineered to retain feedback while still significantly reducing aiming corrections for english. The use of heat dried, instead of vacuum dried wood is part of this and we have ferrule sizes anywhere from 13.5mm down to 10mm.
So, are ld shaft "alot" better. Guess that depends on your definition of alot but in my opinion - yes. The radial consistency allows you to forget about which way the cue is rotated. Although many players subconsciously rotate the cue to the same position repeatedly this is akin to having the Red Dot and always turning it up no matter where your hitting the cue ball. To be effectively consistant the dot needs to be turned towards the center of the cue ball on every shot, not up. Second, they allow you to reduce squirt. Third, they allow you do this over the range of stroke speeds because you do not need to reduce the firmness of the rest of the cue to obtain this. Fourth, they allow you to concentrate on the cut angle and reduce the learning curve a bit for new players. Someone that is used to squirt, deflection, will have to relearn where to aim. Mike Massey stated it took him a year to learn to play with a Predator, this from someone that practices every day for hours. To me the biggest reason for this was lack of feedback from the shaft, something that we worked on maintaining when we engineered our shafts.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
Are LD shaft really a lot better?

Chris, I 2nd your statement! I played an OB-1 from when they came out and enjoyed it. When the OB Classic arrived, I changed to it and never looked back! The solid hit (reminds me of a Schon hit with a regular Schon shaft), and still has LD ! I've sold a bunch of the Classic (and Classic Pro 11.75mm tip) shafts and everyone seems to love them!

TATE said:
The OB Classic is very solid. It's pretty much the best of both worlds. The new Tiger Ultra LD soild shaft only sacrifice a small amount of hit feel for excellent squirt characteristics.

Chris
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bdcues said:
If one reads Predators U S Patent they state that you can not change deflection, that you can only change deflection relative to the line of stroke. The spinning mass and friction are physics that can not be changed. What changes is the direction the front of the shaft is actually going during contact time with the cue ball relative to the line of stroke. Lower frontal mass allows for this change. Simply going to a smaller diameter ferrule size will effectively lower squirt the same as creating a hole in the middle of a larger diameter shaft. So, stated again, squirt does not change, only squirt relative to the line of stroke.
As already stated, the biggest difference between a one piece shaft and a radially laminated shaft is radial consistency. No matter what direction the shaft is oriented to the cue ball the resistance to flex is about the same. Meucci tried to dispute this when laminated shafts first came out... and lost. That is why he came out with the Red Dot shafts. He simply found the hard spine direction of the shaft and put a dot there, and charged much more money for the shaft and then stated the incorrect way in which to put the dot to advantage.
I have been making 6-pie laminated ld shafts for over 13 years. They are engineered to retain feedback while still significantly reducing aiming corrections for english. The use of heat dried, instead of vacuum dried wood is part of this and we have ferrule sizes anywhere from 13.5mm down to 10mm.
So, are ld shaft "alot" better. Guess that depends on your definition of alot but in my opinion - yes. The radial consistency allows you to forget about which way the cue is rotated. Although many players subconsciously rotate the cue to the same position repeatedly this is akin to having the Red Dot and always turning it up no matter where your hitting the cue ball. To be effectively consistant the dot needs to be turned towards the center of the cue ball on every shot, not up. Second, they allow you to reduce squirt. Third, they allow you do this over the range of stroke speeds because you do not need to reduce the firmness of the rest of the cue to obtain this. Fourth, they allow you to concentrate on the cut angle and reduce the learning curve a bit for new players. Someone that is used to squirt, deflection, will have to relearn where to aim. Mike Massey stated it took him a year to learn to play with a Predator, this from someone that practices every day for hours. To me the biggest reason for this was lack of feedback from the shaft, something that we worked on maintaining when we engineered our shafts.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
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Bob,

It looks like we are meaning the same thing on Squirt. I didn't include the relative to the line of aim part, but that is what was meant. Squirt is the angle between the actual cue ball path and the line of stroke by the cue. Squirt is caused by the difference in Tip end Mass versus the mass of the cue ball. (Conservation of Momentum)

So, about heat dried versus kiln dried maple. Do you find a difference in the specific gravity? If so, how much? From my experience, once they reach moisture equilibrium they are consistent in mass regardless of how they got there. Now flex strength may be different, but I haven't really tested that.
 
RBC said:
Bob,

It looks like we are meaning the same thing on Squirt. I didn't include the relative to the line of aim part, but that is what was meant. Squirt is the angle between the actual cue ball path and the line of stroke by the cue. Squirt is caused by the difference in Tip end Mass versus the mass of the cue ball. (Conservation of Momentum)

So, about heat dried versus kiln dried maple. Do you find a difference in the specific gravity? If so, how much? From my experience, once they reach moisture equilibrium they are consistent in mass regardless of how they got there. Now flex strength may be different, but I haven't really tested that.
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RBC,

Having just purchased some vacuum dried boards I will give you a more specific answer to your question at a later date when the boards are processed. I purchased them as a test because I heard that the person who dries them does so at a slower rate than most. The quick answer is that when wood is aggressively vacuum dried for white there is significant cell damage. This is caused partially by the free sugars in the cells that block passage of moisture out of the cells. Cell walls are broken and the wood becomes "soft". Notice how easily vacuum dried white shafts dent or nick when they hit something. This cell wall damage makes a less homogeneous piece of wood, which transfers energy (sound) at a lower speed. In pool cues, just like musical instrument wood, you want the speed of sound to be at the high end of the spectrum for each species of wood.
 
bdcues said:
RBC,

Having just purchased some vacuum dried boards I will give you a more specific answer to your question at a later date when the boards are processed. I purchased them as a test because I heard that the person who dries them does so at a slower rate than most. The quick answer is that when wood is aggressively vacuum dried for white there is significant cell damage. This is caused partially by the free sugars in the cells that block passage of moisture out of the cells. Cell walls are broken and the wood becomes "soft". Notice how easily vacuum dried white shafts dent or nick when they hit something. This cell wall damage makes a less homogeneous piece of wood, which transfers energy (sound) at a lower speed. In pool cues, just like musical instrument wood, you want the speed of sound to be at the high end of the spectrum for each species of wood.
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I agree that soft wood is less "Tonal" than harder wood. I'm curious if that relates to specific gravity. Let me know what you come up with. Maple can vary quite a bit as it is, but typically we see it around .7 specific gravity.

Let me know what you come up with.

What do you use for a ferrule on your LD shafts? What is it's specific gravity?
 
bdcues said:
Simply going to a smaller diameter ferrule size will effectively lower squirt ....
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Yes, this works quite well. Several years ago, I had Ron Kilby make a laminated maple shaft with a pure conical taper and a 10mm tip. The forward 10 inches of this shaft has much less volume (and, therefore, mass) than the Joss I had been using, and squirt is reduced very significantly. (Lamination has essentially no affect on the specific gravity.)

Later this year, I hope to be able to fund an experiment to make several shafts out of laminated spruce. As spruce has only about 65-70% of the density of maple, there should be a further significant reduction in squirt (for the same size tip and same taper). The real question (I believe) concerns the vibrational characteristics of a spruce shaft as those have a very large role in determining whether a cue is pleasant to play with.
 
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It is true that reducing the tip size will reduce cue ball squirt.

The question is by how much.

If you take a conventional cue shaft of conventional construction with conventional materials and reduce the tip size you get a reduction in squirt, but it isn't near as much a cue shaft that was engineered to reduce the tip end mass. There's allot more to it than just turning it down. Don't get me wrong, Bob Jewett plays with a conventional shaft that is very low squirt. But, it's also very small. Much less than 10mm, and that's not all he's done to reduce the squirt.

I go back to my original statements. If you are looking for an LD shaft, look to see how the tip end mass has been reduced. There are too many out there who claim to be LD, and they are to some degree. But you can only go so far without taking some specific steps to reduce the tip end mass. Just turning it down, or using a shorter ferrule won't get you very far.
 
Well

I have played with a Predator and it was okay. But what I found was it was difficult at best to masse a ball.

I think these aftermarket shafts are probably best when you dont have a good quality cuemaker shaft.

I commonly see league players with Meucci cues playing with OB or Predator shafts. For them, its probably a good move because of the quality of the Meucci shafts.

For those who havent played with a great playing shaft, I can see their opinion.

Ken
 
Ken,

What did you find hard about Masse'ing a ball?

Did it just not spin, or was it hard to get around the interfering ball?
 
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