Are Schon custom cues?
- Thread starter Remy
- Start date
Wow, can't believe I missed this thread. Interesting points people are making. I have one question to ask, and if anyone cares to answer, feel free to jump in. Have always wanted to ask this, but there's not been a right moment.
If Schon is considered "production" because they make X number of a particular model, say 12 for their Ltds, then how come Ginacue is considered "custom" when Ernie's made probably a hundred (maybe more) "Rasputin" models, most with exactly the same options down the the color sequence on the veneer rainbows, and probably many (if not most) with same balance points, weights, wraps, shaft weights, tips, etc.
We've ordered cues from Ernie and know his routine. We haven't ordered any custom 1-of-1 Schons though. Would venture a guess to say that nobody here dares to say Ernie's stuff isn't custom.
So, has Schon not paid their dues enough to be considered custom ?? What REALLY is that makes people think differently with "custom" vs "production" ?? Perception is often reality, so is this just a perception thing ?? Is it about the price, production #s, designs, clientele, hype, or what ??
Just playing devil's advocate here guys and would love to hear some of your thougths. Gloves off....real answers please.
If Schon is considered "production" because they make X number of a particular model, say 12 for their Ltds, then how come Ginacue is considered "custom" when Ernie's made probably a hundred (maybe more) "Rasputin" models, most with exactly the same options down the the color sequence on the veneer rainbows, and probably many (if not most) with same balance points, weights, wraps, shaft weights, tips, etc.
We've ordered cues from Ernie and know his routine. We haven't ordered any custom 1-of-1 Schons though. Would venture a guess to say that nobody here dares to say Ernie's stuff isn't custom.
So, has Schon not paid their dues enough to be considered custom ?? What REALLY is that makes people think differently with "custom" vs "production" ?? Perception is often reality, so is this just a perception thing ?? Is it about the price, production #s, designs, clientele, hype, or what ??
Just playing devil's advocate here guys and would love to hear some of your thougths. Gloves off....real answers please.
cueaddicts said:Wow, can't believe I missed this thread. Interesting points people are making. I have one question to ask, and if anyone cares to answer, feel free to jump in. Have always wanted to ask this, but there's not been a right moment.
If Schon is considered "production" because they make X number of a particular model, say 12 for their Ltds, then how come Ginacue is considered "custom" when Ernie's made probably a hundred (maybe more) "Rasputin" models, most with exactly the same options down the the color sequence on the veneer rainbows, and probably many (if not most) with same balance points, weights, wraps, shaft weights, tips, etc.
We've ordered cues from Ernie and know his routine. We haven't ordered any custom 1-of-1 Schons though. Would venture a guess to say that nobody here dares to say Ernie's stuff isn't custom.
So, has Schon not paid their dues enough to be considered custom ?? What REALLY is that makes people think differently with "custom" vs "production" ?? Perception is often reality, so is this just a perception thing ?? Is it about the price, production #s, designs, clientele, hype, or what ??
Just playing devil's advocate here guys and would love to hear some of your thougths. Gloves off....real answers please.
Good questions. The real problem is it depends who you are talking to. To some people ANY fancy two piece cue is referred to as a custom cue.
I personally consider schon to be a productiob cue company. I feel that they make some of the best production cues available, but are a production BRAND. However, you can have a custom made Schon.
It can get a bit blurry, when you really try to pin it down. I'll give you an example. I love Jacoby cues. I have owned several. Actually they are very much like shon in many ways. They have a catalog of different lines of cues. You can order a production model and have it made to your specs. I can get a model C-2 with a different wood, change the wrap, get it in a 19.5 oz, alter the shaft taper, and have my name engraved on the butt cap. I now have a modified PRODUCTION CUE. It is still a model C2, though it has been customized to my liking. I did have a one of a kind truly custom cue by Jacoby. To most people who collect custom cues, this was still a production cue, just because it was made by a company that puts out a lot of cues a year, and has a catalog to choose from.
To the strictest definition a custom cue is a one of a kind cue that cannot be ordered out of a catalog ( does not have a model number, etc) and was made through a collaboration btween you and the cuemaker.
Some production cuemakers make custom cues, and some custom cuemakers will make a limited run of identical ( or nearly identical) cues.
There are some cue makers who will call a cue a 1/1 even though they make the exact cue model but switch around the woods, but keep the exact same design. Is this custom? Different people will answer differently.
If you come up with a design, and collaborate with a cuemaker to make the exact cue that you invision, and they do not repeat it. That is absolutely a custom cue. If you browse through a catalog of different cues and pick one off a page, and they send it from a warehouse that is absolutely a production cue. There are many varibles in between those two extremes.
To a lot of people , just the fact that a company has a catalog at all makes every cue from that maker a production cue. I do not agree, but there are many different opinions.
If you buy a new car, and pick out what options it comes with, it is not a custom car. They mass produce the same models with many different combinations of features to fit different peoples needs. If I get chrome wheels and a better stereo I do not have a custom vehicle. Let's go one step further. If I have a car and buy custom wheels, what does that mean? Some will say that because my wheels are fancy and did not come stock on the car, they are custom wheels. Even though I bought those wheels from a catalog, and anyone else can do the same thing. Are my wheels custom? My girlfriend has a production model Lucasi cue. I think it is a very nice cue. We had Dennis Searing put a very nice leather wrap on it. Does she own a custom cue? I don't think so. She has a production cue that she has customized more to her liking.
I think I have asked more questions than I have answered. Oh well, I guess it is a blurry line, and it keeps getting worse. Almost every cuemaker refers to their cues as custom, even the obvious production companies. It makes the buyer feel special, and it sells more cues.
So while it can get a bit hairy, I think it is probably easier to say what a custom cue is NOT, than what it is. But not always!!
Okay, I am going to stop cause I am getting dizzy from running around in circles!! I have just proved absolutely nothing. Thanks for reading.
To me if a cue is being replicated then that cue has been put into "production". While Schon states 1 of 12 or 1 of what ever . On many they just change the color scheme and the inlays remain in the same place .
If the cue maker has made and put aside inlays and made butts with the same repeat process then he's put that style cue into production.
Don't matter who's making it.
My $.02 worth
Bill
If the cue maker has made and put aside inlays and made butts with the same repeat process then he's put that style cue into production.
Don't matter who's making it.
My $.02 worth
Bill
I don't want to get into an argument over words,especially when we don't have universally accepted definitions,but I have a story that might be interesrting to some of you.
Years ago I was on a trip with Verl Horn,a wonderlful old man at the time,and a pretty good cue maker ,He made points and other parts for many of the most famous cue makers in the country.
well one day we were in a pool room where we were both well known,and the owner of the place sent a young man over to buy a cue from Verl. After about 10 minutes of listening to this young know it all run his mouth ,I could see Verl was tiring of the conversation so I started paying more attention.Finally after picking Verls cue apart piece by piece,"the points were not exactly right , the ferrules were not the right length etc,the price was too high" Verl looked him in the eye and said "OH this is a custom handmade cue,its almost impossible to get everything just perfect,if you want something perfect get yourself a production cue,go see Dean ,he has some schons"
It sure would be great to have some of Verls cues today!
Years ago I was on a trip with Verl Horn,a wonderlful old man at the time,and a pretty good cue maker ,He made points and other parts for many of the most famous cue makers in the country.
well one day we were in a pool room where we were both well known,and the owner of the place sent a young man over to buy a cue from Verl. After about 10 minutes of listening to this young know it all run his mouth ,I could see Verl was tiring of the conversation so I started paying more attention.Finally after picking Verls cue apart piece by piece,"the points were not exactly right , the ferrules were not the right length etc,the price was too high" Verl looked him in the eye and said "OH this is a custom handmade cue,its almost impossible to get everything just perfect,if you want something perfect get yourself a production cue,go see Dean ,he has some schons"
It sure would be great to have some of Verls cues today!
i know a few years ago i was on the phone with Evan and i said something about schon being a production cue and he set me straight in a hurry.......something to effect that "there are five of us in here building cues one at a time, there is no production or assembly line....". He didnt view his cues as production at all. I also am a big schon fan and its my primary playing cue.
scottycoyote said:
I had a similar conversation once with Evan. His reply to me was he had a cue shop, or something very close to that. Personally really like Evan, one of the nicest cuemakers I've talked to. Can be short in answers to emails because he's busy, but catch him on the phone and he'll chat with you and answer any questions you have.
custom cues
I think the word custom is off base. Custom often means modified. Most of the American cuemakers are custom makers one way or another. When a maker takes the time to cure his wood properly I think thats custom. When they look for shaftwood with straight splines that seems custom. Brandon and Dave Jacoby make a line of cues for me that is diferent from their normal designs and that seems custom. I believe the care and detail that goes into a cue makes it custom.
If a person in a shop in China feeds wood into a machine who would rather be fishing or anything else, with little regard for what comes out the other end that is not custom. When a person cares mostly about the paycheck they will recieve and not the product they make thats not custom.
Orion
I think the word custom is off base. Custom often means modified. Most of the American cuemakers are custom makers one way or another. When a maker takes the time to cure his wood properly I think thats custom. When they look for shaftwood with straight splines that seems custom. Brandon and Dave Jacoby make a line of cues for me that is diferent from their normal designs and that seems custom. I believe the care and detail that goes into a cue makes it custom.
If a person in a shop in China feeds wood into a machine who would rather be fishing or anything else, with little regard for what comes out the other end that is not custom. When a person cares mostly about the paycheck they will recieve and not the product they make thats not custom.
Orion
First, I think that the post by Cueaddicts (Sean) is a very valid point. Many "custom" cuemakers make and have made the same cue over and over for years, yet they are always considered "custom".
Schon is a very, very good cue, with a consistent hit and quality. Their "shop" is extremely small. They made some "models" and they make some "Uniques" which are 1 of 1. To me, it does not matter whether or not they are classified as a "custom" cue or as a production cue. They are a real quality product, and are probably one of the easiest, most sought out cues on the secondary market.
It was stated that a true "custom" only applied when a person sat down and drew up a cue plan, took it to a cuemaker, and had it made exactly to their specifications. If that is the case, there are very, very few "custom" cues out there.
Does that also mean that when the person decided to get rid of it, it is no longer a "custom" cue since the new owner is not the one who designed it, and it was not built to the new owner's specs?
Joe
Schon is a very, very good cue, with a consistent hit and quality. Their "shop" is extremely small. They made some "models" and they make some "Uniques" which are 1 of 1. To me, it does not matter whether or not they are classified as a "custom" cue or as a production cue. They are a real quality product, and are probably one of the easiest, most sought out cues on the secondary market.
It was stated that a true "custom" only applied when a person sat down and drew up a cue plan, took it to a cuemaker, and had it made exactly to their specifications. If that is the case, there are very, very few "custom" cues out there.
Does that also mean that when the person decided to get rid of it, it is no longer a "custom" cue since the new owner is not the one who designed it, and it was not built to the new owner's specs?
Joe
Let me start by saying that I really like Schon cues and always keep one in my current collection of cues. They are some of the best hitting cues made and have a great reputation for quality.
But to me, they are a semi-custom cues at best. You cannot claim to be custom if you have model numbers that you use to identify and reproduce the same cue for multiple customers. I also do not believe that cues made with CNC cut points are real custom cues. Finally, the thing that makes them production cues most of all are the shafts. All of the shafts are made with the same collar and can be readily interchanged between cues. You can also readily buy repalcement shafts off the shelf for your schon. Yes you can get custom designed Schons. But they will always have that standard schon shaft, fit, and feel.
I also do not want to single out Schon. I know other cuemakers such as Josey and Black Boar use Model numbers. These makers also make outstanding and very valuable/collectible cues. But, under my deffiinition, they would not be custom. Does that make them inferior or less valuable? I do not think so! Just look at the price on a BB!
Custom cues encompass attributes such as "made to order", hand cut veneers and inlays, custom ringwork that is specific to that cue, and shafts that are created specific to that cue.
Does that make a schon less valuable or desirable than any true custom cue? That will depend on the custom cue. Each custom cue is unique, their quality will vary widely based on how they are constructed, and how well they are made. THe good thing about the Schon is that you almost always know exactly what you are going to get and it is a high quality product that you will enjoy paying with.
Just go and buy the custom cues of your choice and a Schon or two (Heck, throw in a McDermott and a a Muecci too), then enjoy the wonderful process of discovering the subtleties between cue makers and what you like best in a cue for yourself!
Finally, does anybody have an R-series for sale. I would like to pick one up if it is priced right!
But to me, they are a semi-custom cues at best. You cannot claim to be custom if you have model numbers that you use to identify and reproduce the same cue for multiple customers. I also do not believe that cues made with CNC cut points are real custom cues. Finally, the thing that makes them production cues most of all are the shafts. All of the shafts are made with the same collar and can be readily interchanged between cues. You can also readily buy repalcement shafts off the shelf for your schon. Yes you can get custom designed Schons. But they will always have that standard schon shaft, fit, and feel.
I also do not want to single out Schon. I know other cuemakers such as Josey and Black Boar use Model numbers. These makers also make outstanding and very valuable/collectible cues. But, under my deffiinition, they would not be custom. Does that make them inferior or less valuable? I do not think so! Just look at the price on a BB!
Custom cues encompass attributes such as "made to order", hand cut veneers and inlays, custom ringwork that is specific to that cue, and shafts that are created specific to that cue.
Does that make a schon less valuable or desirable than any true custom cue? That will depend on the custom cue. Each custom cue is unique, their quality will vary widely based on how they are constructed, and how well they are made. THe good thing about the Schon is that you almost always know exactly what you are going to get and it is a high quality product that you will enjoy paying with.
Just go and buy the custom cues of your choice and a Schon or two (Heck, throw in a McDermott and a a Muecci too), then enjoy the wonderful process of discovering the subtleties between cue makers and what you like best in a cue for yourself!
Finally, does anybody have an R-series for sale. I would like to pick one up if it is priced right!
It's been a week ago when I received my STL-4 Sch?n and I am very-very glad that I have chosen to get this cue. It looks stunning yet very elegant...
...but as for the "custom / not custom" question: as long as this much work has gone into something (like my cue for example) I really don't care how you call it, production or custom. I believe that the true value should lay beyond the words and descriptions, to me (at least) the main point is that what do I think / feel when I read "Sch?n STL" for sale. From now on that I have experiences I can say that I will feel great and will recommend that cue as I know it hits great and it is really-really elaborately done.
I admire Evan's and the Sch?n crew's work as much as almost any other cuemaker's in the business as you can tell they know what they're doing and that they're working really hard to create something that deserves the name: Schon.
...but as for the "custom / not custom" question: as long as this much work has gone into something (like my cue for example) I really don't care how you call it, production or custom. I believe that the true value should lay beyond the words and descriptions, to me (at least) the main point is that what do I think / feel when I read "Sch?n STL" for sale. From now on that I have experiences I can say that I will feel great and will recommend that cue as I know it hits great and it is really-really elaborately done.
I admire Evan's and the Sch?n crew's work as much as almost any other cuemaker's in the business as you can tell they know what they're doing and that they're working really hard to create something that deserves the name: Schon.
I owned a STL3 model back in 2000 and I'll bet I can get another one from any dealer in the world, you know why? because they are mass produced!
I also owned a Richard Black in 1998 and had to sell it due to financial strains, I don't remember the model but I'll bet I'll never be able to get one like it, it was custom made for a friend of mine and I have never seen another one like it, it was one of one and a real beauty.
I will always regret selling, the buyer got a heck of a deal from me 'cause he knew I needed the money.....Oh well.
I also owned a Richard Black in 1998 and had to sell it due to financial strains, I don't remember the model but I'll bet I'll never be able to get one like it, it was custom made for a friend of mine and I have never seen another one like it, it was one of one and a real beauty.
I will always regret selling, the buyer got a heck of a deal from me 'cause he knew I needed the money.....Oh well.
Remy said:
There is something that all of you don't really understand about on-line shopping.....
Yes you see the full STL line at any web site but they don't have it all in stock....
When you have a mass production cue like lets say Predator then the dealer probably has like 20 5K1 cues in stock and ready for shipment but he probably does not have more then 1 or 2 if any Schon STL1 in stock... and yes he could order one for you and you'll get it in a few months (just like ordering a custom cue...)
A few years back I was looking for a certain Schon and couldn't find it on any site with the weight and colors like I wanted it, which was supposed to be an easy task since I wanted a 19oz and with the colors of the cue as they appear on any web site including Schon web site.... I found it in so many other color schemes and different weights.... I ended up talking directly to Evan, at the time he had some family health issues and he told me that he wasn't making any new cues until further notice.... This doesn't sound to me like the behavior of a mass production cue manufacturer! if it was then he would be out of business by now...
He also told me that when he'll go back to making cues then he can make me what ever I want... that sounds like custom cue making to me!
I ended up getting a McDaniel and guess what I saw it at a dealer website and it had a model.... according to some of you that makes it a mass-production cue... but when it came down to ordering it at my desired weight and upgrade to a leather wrap the dealer ordered the cue for me from Bill because he didn't have any in stock and I waited 4 months for the cue to be ready....
So don't believe anything that you see on web sites, if a manufacturer makes a 100 cues of the same model per year it does not makes it mass-production, if you want to see a real mass-production cue then visit China and see thousands of cues of the same model being produced per year.....
asiasdad
Banned
devils advocate opinion for Sean
For devil's advocate purposes this makes my TAD-1, Judd Fuller JT-4 and pre date Southwest cues all PRODUCTION CUES although these all fall into the catagory of 2 man or less shops, 100 or less annual production (at time cue was made). The TAD and the Judd obviously are production because they have model numbers, and the SW because they make dozens of the same design each year with minor format changes. I believe this changes the perception of what is "top of the food chain" in production cues.
While my Mottey was conceived by Paul and myself and made exactly to my specs, there is no question it is a custom cue, yet my Lambros which is a one off, not needing any 1/1 designation would in my opinion also qualify being a custom cue as nothing else like it has come out of that shop. As a final example, my Murray Tucker Titlist conversion would to me fit the definition of custom cue even though Murray has made 3 of them to date, do to the fact that my pin and joint are unique from the other two.
What I do know for a fact is that my MEUCCI ORIGINAL OL-1 is a production cue
Danny
kgeorgia said:
For devil's advocate purposes this makes my TAD-1, Judd Fuller JT-4 and pre date Southwest cues all PRODUCTION CUES
although these all fall into the catagory of 2 man or less shops, 100 or less annual production (at time cue was made). The TAD and the Judd obviously are production because they have model numbers, and the SW because they make dozens of the same design each year with minor format changes. I believe this changes the perception of what is "top of the food chain" in production cues.While my Mottey was conceived by Paul and myself and made exactly to my specs, there is no question it is a custom cue, yet my Lambros which is a one off, not needing any 1/1 designation would in my opinion also qualify being a custom cue as nothing else like it has come out of that shop. As a final example, my Murray Tucker Titlist conversion would to me fit the definition of custom cue even though Murray has made 3 of them to date, do to the fact that my pin and joint are unique from the other two.
What I do know for a fact is that my MEUCCI ORIGINAL OL-1 is a production cue
Danny
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asiasdad said:For devil's advocate purposes this makes my TAD-1, Judd Fuller JT-4 and pre date Southwest cues all PRODUCTION CUES
While my Mottey was conceived by Paul and myself and made exactly to my specs, there is no question it is a custom cue, yet my Lambros which is a one off, not needing any 1/1 designation would in my opinion also qualify being a custom cue as nothing else like it has come out of that shop. As a final example, my Murray Tucker Titlist conversion would to me fit the definition of custom cue even though Murray has made 3 of them to date, do to the fact that my pin and joint are unique from the other two.
What I do know for a fact is that my MEUCCI ORIGINAL OL-1 is a production cue
Danny
DAMN, I thought I had the only one
