Are tournament handicaps similar to welfare?

cueman

cueman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the last week or so my son has been in our shop complaining to my wife and myself about the handicaps in pool tournaments. He says he paid his dues by getting beat for years and years until he was good enough to win even up. He is now rated an eleven in some North Georgia tournaments and says some of the threes can run out.

I am not much into handicaps either. I played an open Eight ball event that was a race to four this past Sunday. I am no longer a real threat to win one of these. I ran eight balls three times in a race to four and got beat four to three. If it had been handicapped I would probably have been rated a game lower than the other guy and might have won. But would there be any real victory if I had won because the other guy had to give me a spot?

So my wife who is not much into pool and can rarely run two balls said that she thinks having handicaps in money tournaments are like putting people on long term welfare. We asked her to explain and she said they get comfortable with the handout and have no incentive to get better.

The handicap system does seem to punish the better players for putting in the effort to get better. It seems it is hard to win a tournament if you are a high ranked player, as they stack the handicap so a lower ranked underrated player normally wins.

My solution would be to shorten the races in these weekly events and have everyone play even up! That way they actually feel good when they win a race to two eight ball match or a race to three nine ball against a good player and it will happen often in short races. Another benefit would be that people would get home before midnight instead of sometime the next morning.

I once played Johnny Archer in a local handicapped tournament and I had to go to four and he had to go to eight. I beat him four to two and that felt good. If I had beat him four to seven it would not have felt good at all.
 
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I agree. It's a bunch of BS. Without handicaps though there are alot of players who wouldn't show because they have no chance of winning. It is kind of a catch 22.
 
Yes. That's exactly what it's like and exactly what I've been saying for the past couple of years.

I'm not a great player, but I'd MUCH rather take my licks in Open events than deal with handicaps.

There's a strong chance that when my current league session ends, I'll probably only play in Open events for the foreseeable future.
 
Fargo Scoring

I would tend to think high level players would prefer to have as large of a field as possible to increase purses, rather than worry about a handicap player beating them. It's the next level down players that are afraid of bangers beating them imo. From my experience the Fargo player rankings make the most sense to draw as many players as possible and seem to be realistic on a lessor player having a chance rather than just totally donating. How often does a handicap player actually win a match against a much stronger player? The stronger player should be able to play a safe when needed and get out. The Fargo rankings adjust accordingly to how you play against the level of competition you play, this should develop a true handicap and increase the number of players who feel they have a chance but the better player normally does come out on top. It seems crazy to me to try and push out lessor players who are contributing to the purse or want to learn he game. The biggest problem IMO is people not being ranked correctly based on their skill, Fargo fixes this unless you dump for a period of time that just wouldn't be worth it.
 
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Just quit *****in and outrun the nuts. If you put all that time in to get better and still don't have any heart, I don't know what to tell you.
 
Baxter said:
Just quit *****in and outrun the nuts. If you put all that time in to get better and still don't have any heart, I don't know what to tell you.
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Would we even know who Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland were if they only played handicapped tournaments? No they would just be average. I can see league handicaps, but making it near impossible for the stronger players to win tournaments seems foolish. A league is a league and that is where handicaps belong. Pool is a sport and in most sports the best players win.

By the way if you are saying my son has no heart I have seen him many times with the other player several games ahead and on the hill and my son came back and won. I have also done so many times.

On the other hand I could say to the lower ranked players, get some heart and play without asking the better player to hand you the match. Play shorter races and feel good about yourself when you win.

I saw a tournament last for years with a single game race 8 ball event with a break and run pot played on one or two tables and had around 30 players every week.
 
I would think the solution would be for your son to play in open only events and for your wife to never ask for any kind of help for anything, it would remove her incentive.
If your a better player shouldn't you beat the lesser skilled player in every game, maybe the problem is that he's not playing up to his assumed skill or he's not able to focus long enough to win a match he shoud win. When he's in his best mental state I would bet he's unbeatable for a lower or similar rated player, but like anyone else if can't focus and concentrate he will likely get beat, taking things for granted. We all read these forums and we all see people whining about someone elses handicap, sounds very APA to me
 
a fair handicap

cueman said:
Would we even know who Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland were if they only played handicapped tournaments? No they would just be average. I can see league handicaps, but making it near impossible for the stronger players to win tournaments seems foolish. A league is a league and that is where handicaps belong. Pool is a sport and in most sports the best players win.

By the way if you are saying my son has no heart I have seen him many times with the other player several games ahead and on the hill and my son came back and won. I have also done so many times.

On the other hand I could say to the lower ranked players, get some heart and play without asking the better player to hand you the match. Play shorter races and feel good about yourself when you win.

I saw a tournament last for years with a single game race 8 ball event with a break and run pot played on one or two tables and had around 30 players every week.
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Chris,

Assume for just a moment that it were possible to handicap 100% fairly. If that were to happen, then in a thirty-two player tournament your son could only expect to win one time out of thirty-two. However there are other issues at work. One, there are a lot more lower ranked players than top ranked players and the lower ranked players have a far better chance of having an exceptional day.

An advanced player has a great day when he makes zero mistakes, a typical day when he makes one or two, and a terrible day when he makes a few more. In reality compared to the rest of the field, there isn't a lot of difference between the top player's great day and typical day and only a little more between his best and worst days other than a truly awful day he might have once every year or two.

Luck, good rolls, seeing things a bit better that day, or perhaps because he is still advancing rapidly, one of the lower ranked players is likely to have an exceptional day, playing well better than his handicap indicates. He might have another half-dozen balls fall that didn't fall last week. When is the last time your son had a half-dozen more balls fall than usual? I can count on one hand the number of times I had a really magical night and have fingers left over.

It isn't likely to make him any more successful but if your son understands the forces at play in a handicapped tournament then he will understand the basic format works against better players. Nothing the people running the tournament can do about it as long as they leave it handicapped as fairly as possible. The nature of the beast. Handicapped tournaments are good for the business location generally, not so much any of the players. The better the player the less likely he is to win a fairly handicapped tournament because handicaps are based on past performance. his is basically stable while some other people's performance is improving rapidly or far better than usual on a given day sometimes.

I played a little open tournament for a few months after I had quit pool for years and then came back for those few months. The room manager, one other guy, and I, chopped up all of the weekly wins best I can recall. I was playing very little besides those tournaments and still won about half the time. I haven't played many handicapped tournaments but I have played a handful or so. My record is highly consistent in the handicapped events, yet to cash in a handicapped pool tournament.

Man o War couldn't keep winning with the handicap system, why he was retired. If your son's goal is to win or cash regularly he is almost certainly going to have to find a place to play other than honestly handicapped events.

Hu
 
cueman said:
Would we even know who Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland were if they only played handicapped tournaments? No they would just be average. I can see league handicaps, but making it near impossible for the stronger players to win tournaments seems foolish.
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It's not near impossible at all. Handicaps tend to give the lower player a better chance than normal, but the better player should still win more often. If somebody can't or won't improve with a handicap, the system has little, if anything, to do with that.

People are always going to complain - the pockets are too big, the table is too slow, the race is too short, on and on. I liked beating better players with a handicap, i now like playing them even(apa) and now i enjoy giving up the spot. I don't do too bad. Handicaps probably got me more involved than throwing me to the wolves, but they've done nothing to slow my progress.

People should nut up and make themselves the highest handicap if they think that's what it takes to get better. Otherwise it's just more whining.
 
cueman said:
For the last week or so my son has been in our shop complaining to my wife and myself about the handicaps in pool tournaments. He says he paid his dues by getting beat for years and years until he was good enough to win even up. He is now rated an eleven in some North Georgia tournaments and says some of the threes can run out.

I am not much into handicaps either. I played an open Eight ball event that was a race to four this past Sunday. I am no longer a real threat to win one of these. I ran eight balls three times in a race to four and got beat four to three. If it had been handicapped I would probably have been rated a game lower than the other guy and might have won. But would there be any real victory if I had won because the other guy had to give me a spot?

So my wife who is not much into pool and can rarely run two balls said that she thinks having handicaps in money tournaments are like putting people on long term welfare. We asked her to explain and she said they get comfortable with the handout and have no incentive to get better.

The handicap system does seem to punish the better players for putting in the effort to get better. It seems it is hard to win a tournament if you are a high ranked player, as they stack the handicap so a lower ranked underrated player normally wins.

My solution would be to shorten the races in these weekly events and have everyone play even up! That way they actually feel good when they win a race to two eight ball match or a race to three nine ball against a good player and it will happen often in short races. Another benefit would be that people would get home before midnight instead of sometime the next morning.

I once played Johnny Archer in a local handicapped tournament and I had to go to four and he had to go to eight. I beat him four to two and that felt good. If I had beat him four to seven it would not have felt good at all.
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I'm willing to assume your son spent a lot of time playing with a handicap until his skill improved. He probably beat a lot of players better then him in the process. Tell him to quit whining and get over it. Here is a better option. Tell him to go play with Johnny Archer if he want a "no handicap" game.

Seems like a handicap bashing thread comes up once every few weeks. Don't like a handicap league, dont play.
 
This is easy....dont play in handicap tournaments. Handicap tournaments give anyone wanting to compete in various stages of skill levels an opportunity...sure sometimes its not completely fair...some get over for a while,but its usually not for very long. Pool room owners want customers..and open tournaments usually don't draw a lot of players unless its a big payout. And really handicap tournaments are not about the money won...its more about accomplishments at your skill level. How many AA players you know ..that are broke? If higher skill level equated to money in your pocket...then you would a legit gripe. Enjoy the the game....remember the process that it took to become a so called 11...share some knowledge..you will gain more ..by watching someone improve under your tutelage.
 
I just stay away from handicapped tourneys. getting into a tourney where you hope handicap's are fair, and its run by a pool player? no thanks, ill just stick to the open tournaments, its a lot simpler.

note: my personal opinion, never should the lower rated player be the favorite in a match, handicaps should be set up so that lower rated player is just less of a underdog in the match...if lower rated players are consistently winning handicapped tournaments, its because those players are under rated.
 
I think it encourages lesser players to play. We have a handicapped 10ball tournament around here and when I started it seemed that I would always get the 8 or 7. Now days I'm giving the 8 or 7 to new and younger players. I play different. More safes equals more patients. And if I lose I just congratulate them on there win. They're usually very excited and even seem inspired. Some day maybe they will be giving a spot to a new generation of players
 
Its a necessary evil or there wouldn't be any payout. But, I think handicaps should be entry fee based and play should be even.
 
Sounds like your son has stopped improving. That is one way to give a dose back to hadicapped events: keep getting better.

cueman said:
For the last week or so my son has been in our shop complaining to my wife and myself about the handicaps in pool tournaments. He says he paid his dues by getting beat for years and years until he was good enough to win even up. He is now rated an eleven in some North Georgia tournaments and says some of the threes can run out.

I am not much into handicaps either. I played an open Eight ball event that was a race to four this past Sunday. I am no longer a real threat to win one of these. I ran eight balls three times in a race to four and got beat four to three. If it had been handicapped I would probably have been rated a game lower than the other guy and might have won. But would there be any real victory if I had won because the other guy had to give me a spot?

So my wife who is not much into pool and can rarely run two balls said that she thinks having handicaps in money tournaments are like putting people on long term welfare. We asked her to explain and she said they get comfortable with the handout and have no incentive to get better.

The handicap system does seem to punish the better players for putting in the effort to get better. It seems it is hard to win a tournament if you are a high ranked player, as they stack the handicap so a lower ranked underrated player normally wins.

My solution would be to shorten the races in these weekly events and have everyone play even up! That way they actually feel good when they win a race to two eight ball match or a race to three nine ball against a good player and it will happen often in short races. Another benefit would be that people would get home before midnight instead of sometime the next morning.

I once played Johnny Archer in a local handicapped tournament and I had to go to four and he had to go to eight. I beat him four to two and that felt good. If I had beat him four to seven it would not have felt good at all.
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We do spots like 8 ball,8+game,7 +8,7+8+game,678,678 and a game and it can get out of hand quick. I work on my game , have tables home, read and watch pool Instructional materials. When I'm on I can steamroll the room and it's great. It's often that when my mind and body are right it just flows.

I don't mind giving big spots to newer players or females. They can get the called 6 out and a game sometimes and yes its the world. I just bear down and try to outrun the nuts. I win with runout skills but I also manage the table tie ups better, reposition their money balls on pushouts or fouls,3 foul them early in the rack, play safe to setup a 9 ball combo, leave them long or CB on the rail, pattern rack their money balls up table, pushout to my strengths, break in their money balls on purpose. Each of these strategies win games when spotting big.

The skills I have giving up big spots to much weaker players allow me to spot guys my speed the 8 or a game just to get action and give an incentive to raise the bets or get the rail to bet against me. I spotted a guy who plays as good as me the called 7 and 8 on a barbox and just smoked him. I can give up the break to anybody under A speed because they don't runout.

This week in the finals of our weekly handicapped event I gave a good player who has played for years the called 7 and 8 going to 7 on a 9 footer. It's no doubt out of line. Still he isn't running out. In my mind I know anytime I get to the table with 7 to 5 balls on it I have to get out. You lose these spots with failed runouts. If I dog the 6 ball he has a 2 ball out. I played good and won 7 to 5. I probably made 85 percent of the balls and kept him in the chair.

When playing pros and shortstops in open events I know you lose when you sellout and give up the table. You have to break and run 20 percent or more to even have a chance. I know I can compete with them with my best game. I dont have the opportunity to compete with high level players very often. For me I think having to give up tough spots and staying in action is the only way to get stronger so I can beat better players.
 
I see both sides.. I think handy cap tournaments are a sign of our times. No one is willing to take the beatings like the rest of us did to get better. It's easier to just play in a league where you get spotted games so you have a chance...

On the other hand pool is in a terrible spot right now and its the only thing that brings in players any more so it's a necessary evil.; I mean kids can play a video game and be good at it in a few hours or less or play pool and take years to get good at it.. with today's generation which do you think there going to choose to do?
 
Am I the only one that goes to handicap tournaments trying to EARN my way to a higher handicap??

Here's a thought, tournaments are for fun with a cash prize. If anyone is entering tournaments as a money making proposition as part of making a living, get over it. It's not going to happen.

Yes, the prize money is nice. But at the end of the day, it's an opportunity to have a good time and play different caliber players.

I play in the big Carom Room tournaments hoping to win enough to be made advanced. The next step would be to out run the handicap nutz and be changed to Master.

Then I'll play in the Master events with NO chance of winning. But that's ok, because again, at the end of the day, these tournaments are for FUN.

That is all. Carry on.
 
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