Are we killing folks' stroke ???

[KMRUNOUT]

I can see why you'd imagine that, but imagination isn't as good as actual comparisons of different shafts. It's also easy to imagine that stiffer shafts produce more CB squirt, but that isn't true either (as shown by many tests).

Are you saying that a Predator Z shaft, for example, does not produce less squirt than a Dufferin house cue? That doesn't even sound close to right. There is no question whatsoever that different shafts produce different amounts of cue ball squirt. (as shown by many tests)

Actually, the shaft is set in motion while in contact with the CB, but it does most of its deflecting after separating from the CB, as shown in high speed videos.

That makes sense.

I think this is probably correct. The CB begins to rotate while the tip is in contact with the CB (for 1/1000 of a second or so), so the amount of tip offset from centerball changes during this short time. The amount of spin probably isn't the amount that you'd get if the tip was only in contact with the CB for an instant at one offset distance - the amount of spin probably increases during the entire contact time, and the final amount of spin is probably something like the amount you'd get with an instantaneous contact at somewhere near the point where the CB finally leaves the tip.

While 1/1000 of a second seems like a short period of time in our daily lives, in the lives of forces and vectors, that is an eternity. I think the tip offset changes because the ball is rotating, and the shaft is flexing. If you were to express the forces involved in vectors--look at it this way: any force you apply to the cue ball off center has a component which is acting tangent to the surface of the ball. This is the only component that is important in determining the rotational velocity of the cue ball. No matter where you hit the cue ball and at what angle (at a fixed speed) this force will vary. So I am contending that as the shaft flexes and the ball rotates (which may happen together or not), the forces tangent to the surface of the cueball are changing. Since different shafts flex differently (based at very least on different end masses, different composition, etc.) then there will be a change in the resultant force tangent to the cueball. That differenec might be small, in fact, probably is extremely small. However, factor your 1/1000 of a second time period into the equation, and you now have what amounts to a potentially large difference. Food for thought.

The second half of this statement doesn't follow from the first half unless you can show that different shafts have significantly different contact times. This hasn't been shown, and tests don't show significantly different spin results.

The tests might show otherwise, but the logic is sound. If there is more resultant force for even an instant tangent to the cueballs surface, then there is no need for any increase in contact time. (w=F/t....although actually I believe power (w/t) is a better value to determine the overall spin produced in a unit of time)) Just remember, the force is NOT constant.

Interesting topic!

KMRUNOUT

 

[Jaden]

I hate to say this...but....

The reason I asked is because I bought my friend a Predator Z2 blank for her Mike Webb cue, and we had a local cue guy put the correct joint on. The cue plays phenomenal! However, there is no question that I can do rediculous things with the ball that I couldn't do with my cue. I have a 1st gen. predator 314 with a Moori medium (very short and kinda hard). Her's is a 314 Z2 with the 11.5 mm tip, a nice meaty and seemingly very grippy Moori medium. For whatever reason, I can spin the ball like crazy. I feel like there are shots that I just cannot do with my cue but can do with hers. However, this could be attributable to the 11.5mm tip size, the freshness of the tip, and maybe not the shaft. Tough to say. It could also be that for whatever effect of feel or sight (with the small tip), I am simply able to confidently contact a lower or further out point on the cueball accurately. It is likely that if I hit this same point with my cue the exact same thing would happen.

I should also point out that I have on numerous occasions felt that I can get more lively draw action with a standard maple shaft. I think it might be as simple as how I am stroking on that particular day. I bet the small tip diameter does make a difference more so than the shaft.

Thinking out loud,

KMRUNOUT

It is your perception because you weren't skilled or knowledgable enough to put the amount of spin on the ball that you needed to do the things you do. There is no mystery to low deflection shafts. They have less end mass, which reduces squirt. This allows you to not have to adjust as much when putting side spin on the ball. You can put,not more spin,but you can shoot farther from center which does put more spin on the ball without adjusting more for it. IT's STILL not as accurate as BHE with a good cue with good feedback and a pivot point where you are comfortable holding your bridge, but it works on a loose table fairly well with little or no adjustment. This is where the problem lies. It allows people to be lazy and not learn more about the game or develop the feel for the stroke necessary to put those extreme englishes on the ball, so in effect, it DOES lessen people's stroke or atleast prevents some people from developing a pure stroke. Get used to playing with a low deflection shaft on a regular table and then go play on a table with 4 inch pockets and tell me you don't have to adjust....or atleast lessen the amount fo enlgish you use.

 

[Jaden]

I had one of their older cues too and it hit great...

Im glad i dont have one then,lol,i have shot with almost everything too,i have had $1000+ players but right now im shooting with a $150 cue at best made by Stealth cues,and its not a dooley,lol,one of their older cues but i shoot great with it,just as well as i did and if not better then the high end cues i had,it just feel right.Where is Stealth made anyway?

I had an older stealth before it had the EMBLEM that I bought at qmasters in virginia beach until it got stolen and it hit great and was probably the best cue for the money that I ever owned. IT's not about the cue. I can pick up a house cue and in five minutes use it to put three tips of english on a full table shot. IT's about knowledge and the ability to execute using that knowledge.

Ask JoeyA now if he thinks that BHE works.....

 

[Jaden]

shaft flex and time of contact does effect CB squirt....

All you have to do is have knowledge of the pivot point of a cue to know this. The farther back on the shaft your bridge is the more flex there will be in the cue and squirt is most definitely affected by where the bridge hand is placed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
It's also easy to imagine that stiffer shafts produce more CB squirt, but that isn't true either (as shown by many tests).

KMRUNOUT:
Are you saying that a Predator Z shaft, for example, does not produce less squirt than a Dufferin house cue? That doesn't even sound close to right. There is no question whatsoever that different shafts produce different amounts of cue ball squirt. (as shown by many tests)

Yes, different shafts produce different amounts of squirt, but not because of stiffness. The only difference between shafts that's been shown to make a significant difference in squirt is end mass.

I think the tip offset changes because the ball is rotating, and the shaft is flexing.

I agree the tip offset changes during contact (as I said), but I don't agree that the shaft's flexing has much, if anything, to do with the amount of spin produced - I think that's a function of tip offset alone. One reason I think this is that if the shaft's stiffness mattered, it would have at least as much effect on the amount of squirt - but it doesn't seem to from the tests that have been done.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

shaft flex and time of contact does effect CB squirt...

All you have to do is have knowledge of the pivot point of a cue to know this. The farther back on the shaft your bridge is the more flex there will be in the cue and squirt is most definitely affected by where the bridge hand is placed.

The pivot point is just a measure of how much squirt your shaft produces - it's the same no matter where you put your bridge. You're thinking of the fact that you can adjust your aim to compensate for squirt by placing your bridge near the pivot point (using "back hand english").

pj
chgo

 

[Fast Lenny]

I had an older stealth before it had the EMBLEM that I bought at qmasters in virginia beach until it got stolen and it hit great and was probably the best cue for the money that I ever owned. IT's not about the cue. I can pick up a house cue and in five minutes use it to put three tips of english on a full table shot. IT's about knowledge and the ability to execute using that knowledge.

Ask JoeyA now if he thinks that BHE works.....

I agree,i have owned Scruggs,Phillippi,and Predator cues,to be honest i am playing just as well with this cue as i did them,the hit is different but the cue is still effective.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Get used to playing with a low deflection shaft on a regular table and then go play on a table with 4 inch pockets and tell me you don't have to adjust....or atleast lessen the amount fo enlgish you use.

You have to hit the CB and OB just as accurately with either kind of cue. The only difference is how easy or hard it is to see where that is. A low squirt shaft allows you to aim closer to "straight", so it's easier to estimate the amount of aim adjustment - but you still have to hit the same spot.

pj
chgo

 

[Jaden]

You have to hit the CB and OB just as accurately with either kind of cue. The only difference is how easy or hard it is to see where that is. A low squirt shaft allows you to aim closer to "straight", so it's easier to estimate the amount of aim adjustment - but you still have to hit the same spot.

pj
chgo

yes exactly. The only difference is that for most people it is easier to develop the feel for minute adjustments than for larger adjustments, atleast if they don't understand how to use BHE.

Oh and by the way. Yes, the pivot point will differ from shaft to shaft, but if you place your bridge ina different place on the same shaft it will squirt less or more, that's how the pivot point works. The pivot point is the place where you hold your bridge that when using BHE, the amount of squirt equals the amount that you are offset allowing you to hit the same place you were aiming exactly every time. Oh and the key to thinking of shaft deflection is in the term. You are right that deflection occurs AFTER contact with the CB, but for deflection to occur flexion has to occur. This is what causes CB squirt. deflection is the shaft bending away from the CB, during contact however, flexion occurs where the energy is stored in the shaft for deflection to occur and it actually bends slightly TOWARD the CB, the tip also bends inward. Once the tip starts to slip off of the CB then that stored energy causes an equal but opposite reaction, (deflection). this bending of the shaft and tip is what causes the CB to go in the direction, it is because the shaft is literally pointing in the direction that the CB travels. The differing amounts in flexion is more affected by the end mass of the shaft than by the stiffness of the shaft, but stiffnes does play a role. I have to go play some pool now so I'll respond more a little later.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jaden:
...for deflection to occur flexion has to occur. This is what causes CB squirt.

No, it's not. End mass (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft) causes squirt. Shaft flexibility has been shown to have little or no effect. "Shaft deflection" and "CB deflection" (squirt) are two different and unrelated things. I understand why people imagine one causes the other, but it ain't so.

pj
chgo

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No, it's not. End mass (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft) causes squirt. Shaft flexibility has been shown to have little or no effect. "Shaft deflection" and "CB deflection" (squirt) are two different and unrelated things. I understand why people imagine one causes the other, but it ain't so.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
This seems to make sense. However, I would offer an extreme example. Lets assume two shafts. Their weight is identical. One shaft is a regular maple shaft. The other is some kind of metal alloy that for the sake of this argument has extraordinary resistance to bending. We can call this second one "inflexible". Now we assume that the tip is the same, all sizes and weights are the same, and the only difference is that one shaft can flex like normal and the other doesn't flex at all. Don't you think that shaft # 2 will produce more cue ball squirt? I strongly believe that it would. I suppose the difference might possibly be absorbed by the flexibility of the human hand bridging this shot? Thoughts?

KMRUNOUT

 

[Jaden]

no end mass determines how much the CB squirts.

No, it's not. End mass (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft) causes squirt. Shaft flexibility has been shown to have little or no effect. "Shaft deflection" and "CB deflection" (squirt) are two different and unrelated things. I understand why people imagine one causes the other, but it ain't so.

pj
chgo

No you're wrong. when end mass is decreased defelction is lessened, but end mass does not directly cause squirt.

 

[Jaden]

Patrick,
This seems to make sense. However, I would offer an extreme example. Lets assume two shafts. Their weight is identical. One shaft is a regular maple shaft. The other is some kind of metal alloy that for the sake of this argument has extraordinary resistance to bending. We can call this second one "inflexible". Now we assume that the tip is the same, all sizes and weights are the same, and the only difference is that one shaft can flex like normal and the other doesn't flex at all. Don't you think that shaft # 2 will produce more cue ball squirt? I strongly believe that it would. I suppose the difference might possibly be absorbed by the flexibility of the human hand bridging this shot? Thoughts?

KMRUNOUT

Something somewhere has to give in order for the CB to move. If it's not the shaft, then it's the tip. The tip compresses when struck off center in the direction of the center of mass of the CB. If both the tip and the shaft had no flex at all, then the tip would have to miscue and you would have 100% squirt.

sorry for the delay in response, I've been playing pool for the last seven hours.

 

[DoomCue]

It is your perception because you weren't skilled or knowledgable enough to put the amount of spin on the ball that you needed to do the things you do. There is no mystery to low deflection shafts. They have less end mass, which reduces squirt. This allows you to not have to adjust as much when putting side spin on the ball. You can put,not more spin,but you can shoot farther from center which does put more spin on the ball without adjusting more for it. IT's STILL not as accurate as BHE with a good cue with good feedback and a pivot point where you are comfortable holding your bridge, but it works on a loose table fairly well with little or no adjustment. This is where the problem lies. It allows people to be lazy and not learn more about the game or develop the feel for the stroke necessary to put those extreme englishes on the ball, so in effect, it DOES lessen people's stroke or atleast prevents some people from developing a pure stroke. Get used to playing with a low deflection shaft on a regular table and then go play on a table with 4 inch pockets and tell me you don't have to adjust....or atleast lessen the amount fo enlgish you use.

There are some misplaced antecedents here, so I'm not catching your drift here. Are you saying BHE players have a more "pure" stroke than those who don't use BHE? Or are you saying that BHE makes someone have a lazy stroke? BTW, what is a "pure" stroke? Finally, why do you think BHE is more accurate than say, "parallel" english?

Just wanted some clarification from you on those points - carry on.

-djb

 

[Jaden]

There are some misplaced antecedents here, so I'm not catching your drift here. Are you saying BHE players have a more "pure" stroke than those who don't use BHE? Or are you saying that BHE makes someone have a lazy stroke? BTW, what is a "pure" stroke? Finally, why do you think BHE is more accurate than say, "parallel" english?

Just wanted some clarification from you on those points - carry on.

-djb

No, I'm not saying that BHE that BHE players have a more pure stroke. I'm saying that tha majority of people who buy into and use low deflection shafts that minimize squirt so that they don't have to adjust as much, actually think that they don't have to adjust at all and while that works on many tables, especially with loose pockets, it doesn't work on tighter tables and it provides an excuse to not learn more about the game. Another thing I'm saying is that well used BHE at the proper pivot point is more accurate in tighter tolerances than relying on the low deflection properties and low end mass properties of low deflection shafts. Many feel players can get to where they play as well with low deflection shafts but they could get to where they play even better if they learn to properly use BHE or learn to adjust in other ways without relying on the low squirt properties of low deflection shaft tech.

Are you asking me what I think contitutes a pure stroke? A pure stroke is putting the shaft straight through the ball letting the weight of the cue do the majority if not all of the work, IMO. Again, the top tier of players can use parallel enlgish, BHE english or even feel, but IMO, the majority of players out there aren't top tier and CAN'T use any old way to get their best game. The only reason that those other top tier players can is because they are already there at the top tier. If they would've learned to understand more about the game or to use BHE, I think that it could've made their top play even better. In some few cases, they wouldn't, but I think that they are the exception rather than the rule. I think the biggest problem that players face when trying to learn to use BHE, is that they tend to want to pull the cue back to what looks familiar to them and don't stroke straight through the ball or don't let the cue do the work.

This is not meant as an offense to anyone and I'm not trying to say that my way is the best way. Hell, it wasn't even my way. Of everything that I do know about this game, BHE is the only thing I didn't discover on my own. So I can't claim it as my own.

I'm not even going to do what I did in the past and throw down all of the top players that use BHE, even some that don't understand what all they have to do for it to work right.

I just demosntrated and showed to JoeyA that it works by showing him how to use it himself. Most players just don't believe that it works as well as it does until they use it and see for themselves how well it works. This is starting to go a little off topic though.

I think that because BHE and knowledge of what is going on at the table is decreased by things like low deflection tech on looser equipment it gives the players that aren't in that top tier an excuse to not learn the other possibilities and in the case of BHE, it prevents them from being able to more fully test and develop their knowledge and stroke because the pivot point is so far back as for them to not be able to see that it does work. JOeyA had to shorten his bridge substantially with his cue for it to work for him and I told him that he could have someone make him a shaft that has a pivoy point that is farther back and I'm pretty sure that if he was able to get a shaft that had the same taper and shaft diameter that had a pivot point that was further back he would switch to only or at least mostly using BHE. It just works too well if used correctly.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

BHE, I think is a joke, even though it does work, you must "BANG' balls to get it to work......I myself never have used this, I did test the theory,but doing this routine? w h a t e v e r....... just bring a fat wallet, you will need it....

SPINDOKTOR

 

[Jaden]

hahahaha

BHE, I think is a joke, even though it does work, you must "BANG' balls to get it to work......I myself never have used this, I did test the theory,but doing this routine? w h a t e v e r....... just bring a fat wallet, you will need it....

SPINDOKTOR

LOL<<<<LOL<<<<<LOL<<<<<< ROFLMAO>>>>>>>>LOL<<<<<<<<

Sure, my handicap will be that I have to use BHE on every shot.......

IT's also funny that you're a purveyor of low deflection tech and stating this.

I'm not trying to sell anything and I try to help players get better and learn more everywhere I go.

I know I said that I wouldn't state who uses it, but I changed my mind. Efren taught it to me in 99 and I didn't bother to try and use it for THREE years, until another top player (Chip Klein), started talking about it. I mentioned to him that Efren showed it to me and then I started using it. Oh and BTW, if you bang a ball and try using BHE, it won't work. If you hit it too slow and use BHE it won't work either. This is for two different reasons. With hitting to hard, it won't work because of compression induced throw. When hitting it too slow it won't work because of friction induced throw.

For all medium shots regardless of length, it will work with as much spin as you want.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

THE 'ACT' OF USING BHE IS A JOKE or isnt that clear enough for you?

I never had to pivot using my x shaft, if i did id burn it....


SPINDOKTOR

LOL<<<<LOL<<<<<LOL<<<<<< ROFLMAO>>>>>>>>LOL<<<<<<<<

Sure, my handicap will be that I have to use BHE on every shot.......
is that a bet?
IT's also funny that you're a purveyor of low deflection tech and stating this.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jaden:
...for deflection to occur flexion has to occur. This is what causes CB squirt.

Me:
No, it's not. End mass (the amount of weight in the first few inches of the shaft) causes squirt. Shaft flexibility has been shown to have little or no effect. "Shaft deflection" and "CB deflection" (squirt) are two different and unrelated things. I understand why people imagine one causes the other, but it ain't so.

KMRUNOUT:
This seems to make sense. However, I would offer an extreme example. Lets assume two shafts.

We don't have to assume anything. It's been tested.

Jaden:
...when end mass is decreased defelction is lessened, but end mass does not directly cause squirt.

End mass directly causes squirt. Shaft stiffness has little or no effect. This isn't theory or assumption - it has been tested many times and shown to be true.

Flexible shafts with high end mass have been shown to produce high squirt. Stiff shafts with low end mass have been shown to produce low squirt.

One example close to home: my own shafts have thin, hollow tips (low end mass) but straight conical tapers (very stiff, like billiard cues). Guess what? They produce less squirt than Predator or OB-1 shafts.

pj
chgo

 

[Fast Lenny]

What does BHE stand for?