Mike is making It's George cues and cases again. How does this affect value of the old product if they remain the same as before?
Assigning value
- Thread starter hangemhigh
- Start date
hangemhigh said:
HOPEFULLY HE MARKS THEM DIFFERENTLY. I DON'T THINK THAT THE NEW STUFF WILL HAVE MUCH EFFECT ON THE VALUE OF THE OLDER STUFF, UNLESS HE USES THE NAME AND STARTS PRODUCING HORRIBLE, CHEAP PRODUCTION CRAP.
JUST MY 2 CENTS, ALTHOUGH IT MAY NOT EVEN BE WORTH THAT.
How do I contact him?
Thanks,
Nick
Thanks,
Nick
They are marked the same, except the fact that they have thusfar been marked with a serial # follwing the logo, from what I've seen. Also, because he is partnered with I forget who now, it should make the older George's stand out a bit more. IMHO, I put them higher on the ladder than Schon for production cues. I had one of the very early ones, and rare ones in that it had a FF SS joint, which played like a champ (better than me)! Overall, it should make the older ones slightly more valuable, especially on the fancier ones.
I need Mike's phone number.I plan to buy all new cases and can see no reason to hold my old ones,therefore I expect the old ones will lose value.There is no reasonable reason to expect Mike to put out an inferior product,so to answer the question directly ,if Mike is making new ones the old ones will lose vaue in my opinion.
DEAN
DEAN
Bamacues said:
I know you meant cases ;-)
I don't think so. I think that there is plenty of room in the market for all casemakers. Unless Mike has done something radically different to the cases I think that the GTF case will easily be recognized as the quality leader in this style of case.
I have studied a lot of It's George cases over the years.
Great cases without a doubt. And Mike is re-entering the market at a time when there is a lot of competition. He will have a harder time establishing a dealer network than GTF will in my opinion. And in a head to head competition, if one were to take place I'd bet on the GTF to emerge on top for protectiveness and overall quality. At least betting against the older George cases. No idea about the new ones.
I know, this is a BOLD statement. But like I said I did the homework and I have George, Centennial and Thomas cases right here in front of me to compare to and I know them all inside and out. On ANY other point than pure sentimentality the GTF is the better case of the two and that will count for something.
Of course the diehards won't care one bit which is better and that's cool. Like I said there is plenty of market for everyone.
I do think that the resale value of older George cases will plummet as new ones become available.
The other thing is how will the dealers be handled? Right now it looks like Gulyassy is the main dealer, according to him so how will it work with all the other dealers? What will the pricing be so that everyone in the chain makes money? You all know how dealers love to double their dough.
I think it's really a wait and see type thing. If I read things right then right now Mike is getting back into it, probably pretty on his own without the "factory" enviroment. Which is cool because the first cases will be built by him - just totally totally guessing here. But if that's how it is then the supply will be quite limited and will affect Thomas more than GTF as people decide which individual maker to buy from.
GTF will be always be available and the ability to have it now and get it now appeals to consumers and dealers alike.
With that in mind both products fill niches and needs. Kind of a cool time - like the 60s coming back - groovy!
hangemhigh said:
I suspect that if they are not different than before they will greatly decrease the value of cues and cases currently in collections. But I also doubt that a smart business person would do this, because of the effect it wood have on the market, and because if they did it they would also loss all credibility will the collector community. The long and short of it, those type of actions would devalued their entire products old and new, and once your credibility is shot, in most cases it can never be repaired.
A good example of this would be Dale Perry!!! When Dale first started making cues he was beginning to get a following of collectors and dealers across the country. Then for what ever reason, Dale changed his sale technique and started to sell his products directly himself, without concern for the money invested in his cues by his dealers and the collectors who had purchased his cues for future appreciation. Now at this time while they are great cues for the money no collector would touch one of his cues. And while he sells a large numbers of cues, for the work involved he certainly is not getting paid what he should, and now no dealer will touch any of his cues also.
Another little know example happened around seven years ago!! Bob Hempel who made Fellini cue cases had a great deal of materials left over from the production days when Fellini was in operation. While I was home in St. Louis I ran into a good friend and a very well Respected Cue Maker who had a number of Brand New / Unused Fellini Cues cases that he had recently purchased from Mr. Hempel that were made from old stock materials. These cases were exactly duplicated down to the tag inside and in effect they were Fellini Cue cases, however, with the price paid for Fellini Cases today and the prices paid for the cases in question it seems very very unfair to the collectors.
Enclosing I doubt the above are the only examples of this, there are probably many many more that I do not know about, lets just hope that there is an obvious difference between the new and old in this time.
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manwon said:
While I understand your point I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that the person who is building today has any obligation to the person who is buying for the future.
At least not in the sense that they should be concerned with future collectibility and/or future value.
I put forth that in the world of collectibles you will find far more manufactured and "limited edition" items than you will find one-off pieces. Things don't become collectible until they are no longer available or very very very limited in supply.
To be sure there are several living cuemakers whose work is collectible now as their supply is very limited. And as long as they are happy with their income then the balance is maintained.
I don't think that Mike Roberts owes anyone anything regarding the "collectibility" of George cases. He didn't build them as collectibles, he mass produced them as functional products and any collectibility of them now stems solely from the fact that people still like this style and the availability has been severely limited until now.
Take an It's George into any local poolroom and very often you won't get any offers anywhere near it's sticker value. Of course there are those who are knowledgeable about such things and will pay more but most people don't see the George as anything special.
And what could Mike do that would be different that would make a difference to the collectors? Date the cases perhaps like GTF is doing?
All GTF cases will be dated with the year of manufacture - ex. GTF 2008 This is for identification purposes in the future and strictly for those that care about such things. Any new It's George cases are going to affect the already tenuous market for George cases regardless of what Mike does to the new ones.
I have seen casemakers in other fields take a customer's design or better said the result of a customer's desire and make it into a pattern case with no discernible impact on the value of the original piece nor the prices for the subsequent pattern pieces.
The point being in my opinion that Mike Roberts is not to be considered a "bad businessman" if he doesn't pander to the collectors. The George case prices on the secondary market are all over the place anyway. We all know that. One time one will sell for $200, one time for $500. The thing is that if someone is collecting a piece of history then the older production cases will still be a piece of history. If someone is buying a case to use then they shouldn't be expected to pay extra just because it was made 20 years ago, especially if a new one is available for less money.
I don't know. I just build cases to be used and appreciated now. I guess I will be happy to see some of them sought after when I retire but it's not a thought right now. I'd expect Mike Roberts to do the same.
For your example of Bob Hempel and the "new" Fellini cases I'd say that there is another example of the casemaker not owing anything to the collector world. Fellini cases aren't traded based on their date of birth or anything other than being Fellini cases. Bob is under no obligation therefore to date them or do anything else to them. Collectors know that there is no possibility on Earth that another George Balabushka cue or another Gus Szamboti cue will be made - the pool of available cues is closed. That doesn't exist with living cue and casemakers. Like Dale Perry they can start, stop, decrease or increase production and change sales methods at any time. So speculating on the short term collectibility of things made by living people is a dangerous proposition in my mind. Best to buy it and put it away and not think about it. In 30 years see how many are left around in pristine condition and I will bet that the one you put away will have at least doubled or tripled in value no matter what the maker was doing with production when he or she was alive.
I feel my only obligation to the future is to build a case that will still be there and working far into the future.
JB Cases said:
You Stated:
The point being in my opinion that Mike Roberts is not to be considered a "bad businessman" if he doesn't pander to the collectors. The George case prices on the secondary market are all over the place anyway. We all know that. One time one will sell for $200, one time for $500. The thing is that if someone is collecting a piece of history then the older production cases will still be a piece of history. If someone is buying a case to use then they shouldn't be expected to pay extra just because it was made 20 years ago, especially if a new one is available for less money.
Well, in my opinion it really matters not if he intended the cases to become collectible they have, and with that being said, also in my opinion that is why he is planning to produce them again. I mean realistically why else would he consider it, to lose money, I think not, I suspect that it is because there is market for a Quality case. Whether he panders to collectors or not is not important!!! The real difference between a good businessman and bad businessman is how they conduct business. Now keeping this in mind why would as a Businessman, want to alienate a segment of your customer base?
When it can be so easily avoided by simply making the New cases different so they can be identified as such. In addition this would also stop the needless ripoffs that would occur in the beginning due to unscrupulous people taking advantage of others who are unaware of the new developments in the industry. Now maybe you could careless about any of this, I do not know you and I am not saying you would approve or disapprove only you know. However, if someone is trying to do business, they are also trying to make money, so I totally disagree with your above post!!!You Said:
So speculating on the short term collectibility of things made by living people is a dangerous proposition in my mind. Best to buy it and put it away and not think about it. In 30 years see how many are left around in pristine condition and I will bet that the one you put away will have at least doubled or tripled in value no matter what the maker was doing with production when he or she was alive.
This is not a question of speculation, these item were discontinued and they were also very nice quality. This is what caused the collectibility not speculation, in fact it is truly a case of non-availability of a high quality item. All I can say is realistically, being a businessman myself I do feel accountability to customers. Their individual trust and respect for me, my trade, and business practices is why my business is successful in the first place. One thing people seem to forget time and time again is Never Bite The Hand That Feeds You, Credibility is earned and nothing is more important than ones Credibility!!!!!!!!
We will have to agree to disagree!!!!!!!!!
manwon said:You Stated:
The point being in my opinion that Mike Roberts is not to be considered a "bad businessman" if he doesn't pander to the collectors. The George case prices on the secondary market are all over the place anyway. We all know that. One time one will sell for $200, one time for $500. The thing is that if someone is collecting a piece of history then the older production cases will still be a piece of history. If someone is buying a case to use then they shouldn't be expected to pay extra just because it was made 20 years ago, especially if a new one is available for less money.
Well, in my opinion it really matters not if he intended the cases to become collectible they have, and with that being said, also in my opinion that is why he is planning to produce them again. I mean realistically why else would he consider it, to lose money, I think not, I suspect that it is because there is market for a Quality case. Whether he panders to collectors or not is not important!!! The real difference between a good businessman and bad businessman is how they conduct business. Now keeping this in mind why would as a Businessman, want to alienate a segment of your customer base?
You Said:
So speculating on the short term collectibility of things made by living people is a dangerous proposition in my mind. Best to buy it and put it away and not think about it. In 30 years see how many are left around in pristine condition and I will bet that the one you put away will have at least doubled or tripled in value no matter what the maker was doing with production when he or she was alive.
This is not a question of speculation, these item were discontinued and they were also very nice quality. This is what caused the collectibility not speculation, in fact it is truly a case of non-availability of a high quality item. All I can say is realistically, being a businessman myself I do feel accountability to customers. Their individual trust and respect for me, my trade, and business practices is why my business is successful in the first place. One thing people seem to forget time and time again is Never Bite The Hand That Feeds You, Credibility is earned and nothing is more important than ones Credibility!!!!!!!!
We will have to agree to disagree!!!!!!!!!
I suppose we will. I think we have different ideas of accountability. I feel that I am accountable for providing a good product at a good value to my customers. I make no claims of future value only present value.
I agree with you that the discontinuation of the cases cause them to become collectible, or better said caused the remaining ones to stand a good chance of selling for more than their original retail. But that is the entire point right there. They aren't collectible because they were limited, or even because they were particularly special. But solely because they aren't available any more.
However now they will be available and thus the supply status has changed and with it the prices on the secondary market.
Again Craig I ask you what do you think Mike should do to distinguish between the former and the present George cases? What thing would there that you would expect to get a higher price from on older ones if new and "better" ones are available? Simply because it's older?
Assuming the new cases are the same or - i hope - better than the former ones what advantage is there to acquiring one that is 20 years old and likely well used if you have to pay more than a new one for it?
Now I agree with you if a cuemaker or a casemaker (me) for example states boldly that they are making one-of-a-kinds only and then all of a sudden the maker takes all of his unique designs and starts pumping them out in mass production. In that situation part of the consumer's buying decision was based on the maker's promise not to duplicate and duplicating possibly devalues the original to a degree. But ONLY in the case of resale and only in certain situations, as in some cases the first or the original is worth the most while it is the duplicates that have little resale value.
Think art - how many times do you see artists selling framed prints for hundreds of dollars while the original is worth tens of thousands to millions.
In this case though you are talking about a manufacturer who stopped and is starting again. it's unfair to condemn him for starting again just because his product is still desirable and a portion of the traders want to continue to add a "collectible" tax on the sale of the goods. Had Mike never stopped then the the Ebay auction would read "old George case, decent condition, $50 or best offer" you know it and I know it. It's the way the world works. However any special ones like the Joss tooled ones, or the ones with special skins will still be collectible.
It's a fickle world Craig. Things change quickly. A decade ago you couldn't get $250 for a D-19 and now you can't buy one for less than $700. If McDermott wanted to and thought they could sell plenty of them then they would bring out that model again and the secondary market would plummet. Oops, they did that with their new D-19 Tribute.
( I think I saw something like that on their website.)As to why Mike Roberts is planning on producing the cases again I can tell you that I think it's not because of the prices of George cases on the secondary market. If so then he will have to limit supply very tightly to command the prices that some It's George cases have brought on the secondary market.
It could very well be that just like me, he wants to make things again and what better place to start than with that which he knows best.
In any event I want to say welcome back Mr. Roberts to the case making business. I hope that you have a lot of success and that you sell all you can make.
And Craig, I hope that the business model is done in a way that works for you as well so that you can confidently sell George cases.
All the best to both of you.
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In the instance of Dale Perry, I think the only thing he is guilty of is trying to put money in his own pocket instead of all the "collectors", ie cue flippers. I understand there are plenty of people still bitter over this...but to those trying to make money at the expense of DP, get over it already. Dale Perry is in the business to make money by making and selling cues. He saw a better market for HIMSELF by selling directly. I can't blame the guy really. Why should I line the pocket of some schmo I have never met when I can line my own pocket?
As far as It's George being collectable cases...fat chance. We are talking about a 200-300 dollar case at most that was very much mass produced years ago. That is not a collectable. That is just a demand that is still there in which no casemaker has filled the void. The only reason they have went up in value any is because of economic differences between now and the early 90s.
These are just the opinion of a "Roller".
As far as It's George being collectable cases...fat chance. We are talking about a 200-300 dollar case at most that was very much mass produced years ago. That is not a collectable. That is just a demand that is still there in which no casemaker has filled the void. The only reason they have went up in value any is because of economic differences between now and the early 90s.
These are just the opinion of a "Roller".
JB Cases said:I suppose we will. I think we have different ideas of accountability. I feel that I am accountable for providing a good product at a good value to my customers. I make no claims of future value only present value.
I agree with you that the discontinuation of the cases cause them to become collectible, or better said caused the remaining ones to stand a good chance of selling for more than their original retail. But that is the entire point right there. They aren't collectible because they were limited, or even because they were particularly special. But solely because they aren't available any more.
However now they will be available and thus the supply status has changed and with it the prices on the secondary market.
Again Craig I ask you what do you think Mike should do to distinguish between the former and the present George cases? What thing would there that you would expect to get a higher price from on older ones if new and "better" ones are available? Simply because it's older?
Assuming the new cases are the same or - i hope - better than the former ones what advantage is there to acquiring one that is 20 years old and likely well used if you have to pay more than a new one for it?
Now I agree with you if a cuemaker or a casemaker (me) for example states boldly that they are making one-of-a-kinds only and then all of a sudden the maker takes all of his unique designs and starts pumping them out in mass production. In that situation part of the consumer's buying decision was based on the maker's promise not to duplicate and duplicating possibly devalues the original to a degree. But ONLY in the case of resale and only in certain situations, as in some cases the first or the original is worth the most while it is the duplicates that have little resale value.
Think art - how many times do you see artists selling framed prints for hundreds of dollars while the original is worth tens of thousands to millions.
In this case though you are talking about a manufacturer who stopped and is starting again. it's unfair to condemn him for starting again just because his product is still desirable and a portion of the traders want to continue to add a "collectible" tax on the sale of the goods. Had Mike never stopped then the the Ebay auction would read "old George case, decent condition, $50 or best offer" you know it and I know it. It's the way the world works. However any special ones like the Joss tooled ones, or the ones with special skins will still be collectible.
It's a fickle world Craig. Things change quickly. A decade ago you couldn't get $250 for a D-19 and now you can't buy one for less than $700. If McDermott wanted to and thought they could sell plenty of them then they would bring out that model again and the secondary market would plummet. Oops, they did that with their new D-19 Tribute.
As to why Mike Roberts is planning on producing the cases again I can tell you that I think it's not because of the prices of George cases on the secondary market. If so then he will have to limit supply very tightly to command the prices that some It's George cases have brought on the secondary market.
It could very well be that just like me, he wants to make things again and what better place to start than with that which he knows best.
In any event I want to say welcome back Mr. Roberts to the case making business. I hope that you have a lot of success and that you sell all you can make.
And Craig, I hope that the business model is done in a way that works for you as well so that you can confidently sell George cases.
All the best to both of you.
I think you are misunderstanding my position on this subject. I think there certainly is a demand for Quality cases, and I never said that he should not make additional cases I only said that they should be identified as such. In addition I do not collect or market anything, however, for those who do it would make things easy to just to be able to make a distinction between the two. Maybe call them George II cases, there are many ways to do just that, and yes I do think a true collector will continue to buy the older versions for their collections. If they sell for more money, who cares, people buy things because they want them, even if they are important to knowone else. Thats what collecting is all about, and while it means nothing to you, it can be simply handled so nothing changes and everyone is happy. Most of all though, it is a good business practice not to alienate any potential buyer!!!
It's just good practice in life not to alienate people but if we all followed that great road then there would be no war and everything would be roses.
The other good practice in life and the one that is far more common is survival.
I don't see why Mr. Roberts should call his cases It's George II or any other special designation. Maybe call them "Da Bomb" to reflect the current vernacular for the term "it's george".
To me they are a continuation of the old ones. Now, he might not have the right to the name It's George. I don't know, there was something with Brunswick there for a while.
In that case then the sky's the limit on naming them, maybe Mike Roberts Cases.
I understand what you mean though and there will probably be soemthing to distinguish the old one from the new ones. Things change in 15 years.
Best,
john
The other good practice in life and the one that is far more common is survival.
I don't see why Mr. Roberts should call his cases It's George II or any other special designation. Maybe call them "Da Bomb" to reflect the current vernacular for the term "it's george".
To me they are a continuation of the old ones. Now, he might not have the right to the name It's George. I don't know, there was something with Brunswick there for a while.
In that case then the sky's the limit on naming them, maybe Mike Roberts Cases.
I understand what you mean though and there will probably be soemthing to distinguish the old one from the new ones. Things change in 15 years.
Best,
john
JB Cases said:It's just good practice in life not to alienate people but if we all followed that great road then there would be no war and everything would be roses.
The other good practice in life and the one that is far more common is survival.
I don't see why Mr. Roberts should call his cases It's George II or any other special designation. Maybe call them "Da Bomb" to reflect the current vernacular for the term "it's george".
To me they are a continuation of the old ones. Now, he might not have the right to the name It's George. I don't know, there was something with Brunswick there for a while.
In that case then the sky's the limit on naming them, maybe Mike Roberts Cases.
I understand what you mean though and there will probably be soemthing to distinguish the old one from the new ones. Things change in 15 years.
Best,
john
Thanks for the reply John, I think you understand what I was trying to say, in the beginning it must have been the way I approached it!!!
Have a good day John!!!!!
i'd say the old cases will be de-valued by the new ones. if you have bought up 20-30 or more of the old cases, as an investment,you made a big mistake. if you have one or two you use to hold your cues, no big deal, you're getting your money's worth through the value of your use.