i think everyone is different to be honest. ive noticed efren has changed his stroke and his stance throughout the years. he uses a lot of different stances from what i have observed.
At what point do you stop experimenting with stance, stroke, etc
- Thread starter alstl
- Start date
I have done more teardowns and rebuilds than I care to count.... Growing up when there was no real instruction meant lots of experimenting... Also means everything I have ever played with is cobbled together and prone to go off the tracks easily.... I have had lessons from a few instructors to pretty much no avail aside from cherry picking small changes. The changes were worth the rice of admission tho...
If you have access to good instruction from someone who can actualy work with you over a long enough period to make changes by all means you should do it... As far as having a travelling lesson the value to those depends on the instructor and the depth of the materials covered....
Coaches and Mentors are definitely different than instructors in my book... I would be willing to invest in coaching to try and rebuild one more time but I would not be willing to try and use a single session or 2 to try and do the rebuild as there are too many personal variables/nuances IMHO to be handled by a one size fits all and run from there......
Stand like this, hold the cue like that, put the cue there on your chin.... Now that looks perfect.... Don't worry about the fact you can no longer make 2 balls in a row and have no feel... It will all come back in several thousand balls... That's not something I think I could do on my own without someone in my corner......
Will be working on my 100000000th rebuild more tonight... Looking to get back to trouncing the ghost... I swear if I get back on the tracks again I will be videoing taping everything... Getting lost in the woods is a real pain in the ass... Finding a guide out would be awesome but they don't live around here.....
Chris
If you have access to good instruction from someone who can actualy work with you over a long enough period to make changes by all means you should do it... As far as having a travelling lesson the value to those depends on the instructor and the depth of the materials covered....
Coaches and Mentors are definitely different than instructors in my book... I would be willing to invest in coaching to try and rebuild one more time but I would not be willing to try and use a single session or 2 to try and do the rebuild as there are too many personal variables/nuances IMHO to be handled by a one size fits all and run from there......
Stand like this, hold the cue like that, put the cue there on your chin.... Now that looks perfect.... Don't worry about the fact you can no longer make 2 balls in a row and have no feel... It will all come back in several thousand balls... That's not something I think I could do on my own without someone in my corner......
Will be working on my 100000000th rebuild more tonight... Looking to get back to trouncing the ghost... I swear if I get back on the tracks again I will be videoing taping everything... Getting lost in the woods is a real pain in the ass... Finding a guide out would be awesome but they don't live around here.....
Chris
I sat out of Pool for about 2 years....was getting disgusted with not getting any better. I didn't play for those two years but I did get my mind right. When I started back last January I completely rebuilt everything, approach, stance, stroke, and follow through. I am amazed at my results...they are finally coming to fruition...I am not wasting practice time anymore....I am practicing correctly and getting a lot better. However, this process has taken about 8 months at 3-5 hours a week. I love this game so it's totally worth it to me....I hope to "make it" one day soon. In a nutshell, do what you want, don't over analyze it. Confidence breeds success!!
I was joking...
Although I was serious with my original statement, I was joking because there is much more to it than that.
You should be constantly tweaking your start stance, your stroke, etc, until you don't miss any more.
Just like anything though, too much or too drastic of tweaks can be damaging.
The other problem is caused by falling back on old habits when you become accustomed to certain ways of doing things.
the trick is to figure out (through tweaking) what works for you all the time when you do those specific things (the things that you've tweaked) and THEN concentrating on doing those things as often as possible.
This often requires certain tweaks as well, usually to thought processes and focal points...
People often say that focus is the key and yes that is true to an extent.
I think it's better to say that finding key focal points is what's most important.
Once you have the ability to execute, it is important to find key focal points that allow you to focus on the right things all the time.
No one focuses on the right things all the time, but the best players focus on the right things more often than those who have the ability but don't compete as well as them.
A good way to look at the above is this. How often have you executed a super tough shot perfectly, exactly how you wanted to, only to flub the easy shot that follows it???
Is it because you suck???? NOPE....
It's because you lost your focus on what's important. It's not that you weren't focusing... You were focusing on how well you just executed the last shot instead of focusing on making this shot..
It's the same thing when you focus too much (during shot execution) on where you're trying to put whitey and you end up missing a shot that you shouldn't miss. It's about choosing the correct focal points at the correct times...
Obviously, if the ability to execute what you are trying to do isn't there, it won't make a difference WHAT you focus on or how WELL you focus; however, once the ability to execute shots correctly with whatever english and or speed you are trying to execute them with is there, knowing WHAT to focus on during what portions of the preshot and shot routine to have high levels of repeat-ability is what's important.
Jaden
Although I was serious with my original statement, I was joking because there is much more to it than that.
You should be constantly tweaking your start stance, your stroke, etc, until you don't miss any more.
Just like anything though, too much or too drastic of tweaks can be damaging.
The other problem is caused by falling back on old habits when you become accustomed to certain ways of doing things.
the trick is to figure out (through tweaking) what works for you all the time when you do those specific things (the things that you've tweaked) and THEN concentrating on doing those things as often as possible.
This often requires certain tweaks as well, usually to thought processes and focal points...
People often say that focus is the key and yes that is true to an extent.
I think it's better to say that finding key focal points is what's most important.
Once you have the ability to execute, it is important to find key focal points that allow you to focus on the right things all the time.
No one focuses on the right things all the time, but the best players focus on the right things more often than those who have the ability but don't compete as well as them.
A good way to look at the above is this. How often have you executed a super tough shot perfectly, exactly how you wanted to, only to flub the easy shot that follows it???
Is it because you suck???? NOPE....
It's because you lost your focus on what's important. It's not that you weren't focusing... You were focusing on how well you just executed the last shot instead of focusing on making this shot..
It's the same thing when you focus too much (during shot execution) on where you're trying to put whitey and you end up missing a shot that you shouldn't miss. It's about choosing the correct focal points at the correct times...
Obviously, if the ability to execute what you are trying to do isn't there, it won't make a difference WHAT you focus on or how WELL you focus; however, once the ability to execute shots correctly with whatever english and or speed you are trying to execute them with is there, knowing WHAT to focus on during what portions of the preshot and shot routine to have high levels of repeat-ability is what's important.
Jaden
Last edited:
I think comedian Joe Rogan said something about "ass weights"? Lol
I never stop tweaking and it is all earl's fault!
Earl makes ya not to want to stop twerking! Well to each his own I suppose! Just be careful, usually twerking is best left to the YUTES.
Just messing wit ya Playa, my eyes aren't the best and first time I read ur post I thought thats what I read till re-reading it lol 
I don't believe you ever stop experimenting.
There is always something to learn, something to improve. However, motivation can be a problem because of the ups and downs you naturally incur when you play around with things.
And, there's an udder thing: what happens when you learn to solve Rubik's Cube in a matter off seconds? No, I don't mean that you're going to win the US Open, that's a different level. But what happens when suddenly, you stroke the ball and it goes straight into the pocket? What happens when the CB goes where you expect it to, most of the time?
Part of what we all do is about the hunt, the journey, trying to solve the problem. Beware of what you wish for, it could mean the end of the chase
Lou Figueroa
we weren't put on this earth to play pool so it's not "comfortable"
Actually Earl has opened up his stance in the last few years and his bridge is slightly different.
Experimenting is one thing, finding the most effective way is quite another.
Watch the pro's left foot and the angle relative to the "line of the shot" - this is how they control their left body angles which are vastly overlooked by the "shortstop" players.
Don't let anyone fool you, "if it feels right it's probably wrong" - we weren't put on this earth to play pool so it's not "comfortable" to learn to play the game at a high level. If you're trying to be "comfortable" while you shoot I'll bet you are not reaching your full potential.....and most likely not even close.
Actually Earl has opened up his stance in the last few years and his bridge is slightly different.
Experimenting is one thing, finding the most effective way is quite another.
Watch the pro's left foot and the angle relative to the "line of the shot" - this is how they control their left body angles which are vastly overlooked by the "shortstop" players.
Don't let anyone fool you, "if it feels right it's probably wrong" - we weren't put on this earth to play pool so it's not "comfortable" to learn to play the game at a high level. If you're trying to be "comfortable" while you shoot I'll bet you are not reaching your full potential.....and most likely not even close.
This is a great thread IMO. I hope 1000's of players read it that are changing something every week. I was guilty of this also for about 7 years. After reading Mark Wilson's "Play Great Pool" book I changed things for the last time. After reading it I came full circle to how I shot for about 50 years. The video camera is a tool I wish we had when I started playing. We all need to put in the time practicing and competing.
I'm not saying that if you're missing balls that you shouldn't change what needs to be changed, but if you can't figure it out in a reasonable amount of time go to a good instructor. Don't be like me and waste 6 years for nothing. Johnnyt
I'm not saying that if you're missing balls that you shouldn't change what needs to be changed, but if you can't figure it out in a reasonable amount of time go to a good instructor. Don't be like me and waste 6 years for nothing. Johnnyt
I don't think people should be changing anything without going to a good instructor..
Going to a good instructor first should be a prerequisite...
You can't just go changing things willy nilly and expect to improve...
95% of this game is acquired knowledge, some of which is impossible (for most people) to acquire on their own through trial and error and even for those that it's not, acquiring it from those who have been there done that will be much faster and better than trying to do so on their own.
When I talk about tweaking your stroke/preshot routine I'm talking about just that, tweaking...
The little things that allow you to do and focus on the right things. Knowledge and general stroke ability are always prerequisites to that.
Jaden
Going to a good instructor first should be a prerequisite...
You can't just go changing things willy nilly and expect to improve...
95% of this game is acquired knowledge, some of which is impossible (for most people) to acquire on their own through trial and error and even for those that it's not, acquiring it from those who have been there done that will be much faster and better than trying to do so on their own.
When I talk about tweaking your stroke/preshot routine I'm talking about just that, tweaking...
The little things that allow you to do and focus on the right things. Knowledge and general stroke ability are always prerequisites to that.
Jaden
That is the answer for any one player at any one time and place. Take the actions that best fulfill the goal.
I've been fixing my game for 50 years and have finally gotten it close to where I wanted it so long ago. I feel great about my game now (lol...I lost 3 of 4 games in league last night, but I think I'm playing my best ever in spite of that).
If I'd stopped the improvements, I'd suck more than I do now. I still suck but not so much.
That's my goal: continual improvement, not world-class status, so I keep tweaking. Mileage varies for other players, I'm sure.
Jeff Livingston
Was it you who said, "clearance over comfort"? I've taken that to heart, but I do have to be sure my back isn't being over stressed.
Jeff Livingston
You stop experimenting when you have tested your stroke and passed. There are several ways to test your stroke for accuracy and consistency. Maybe your stroke is fine and you need to work on your aim. What is the reasoning for experimenting? Missing shots or losing. How much do you play? How often do you work on your weaknesses? How do you know your not trying to experiment with a strength instead of a weakness. Just saying there are several ways to test your stroke. Maybe its great in practice and breaks down in a match. I lost so therefore I must have an issue with my stroke. Maybe the stroke is fine but other aspects of your game need work. Like safeties and knowing when to go for a shot or playing a safe, Kicking and banking. You also have to translate table time to being consistent. How many times have we all heard. Well if I played 5 days a week I would be as good as him. Well there you go. Put in the table time. Productive practice.
the payback is well worth it for those that want to play better, pain free
No, I'm not even sure what "clearance over comfort" is referring to.
The human body was not made to play pool, I don't believe anyone can argue with this.
However, there is a system that allows your body to conform to the the game of pocket billiards and play in a way that has very little stress on your back or neck. This requires the understanding of how the hips and "center" of your body operates to lower your head into position. This can't be taught on DVD, it must be taught "one on one".
The head should NOT move separate and disconnected from the lower body, it should, in fact work in synchronicity controlled by the hips, legs and feet (the foundation must be correct or the structure can't possibly be consistent). Basically, the head moves forward and down to the cue ball initiated by the lower body moving back and away (with the back remaining nearly in the same angle throughout).
This took me literally thousands of hours of Research and Development to teach, using martial arts and other techniques blended from my experience with Hank Haney (Tiger Woods past golf swing coach). This is not easy and takes about 3 weeks to learn, however, the payback is well worth it for those that want to play pool for the foreseeable future. 'The GaMe is the Teacher'
No, I'm not even sure what "clearance over comfort" is referring to.
The human body was not made to play pool, I don't believe anyone can argue with this.
However, there is a system that allows your body to conform to the the game of pocket billiards and play in a way that has very little stress on your back or neck. This requires the understanding of how the hips and "center" of your body operates to lower your head into position. This can't be taught on DVD, it must be taught "one on one".
The head should NOT move separate and disconnected from the lower body, it should, in fact work in synchronicity controlled by the hips, legs and feet (the foundation must be correct or the structure can't possibly be consistent). Basically, the head moves forward and down to the cue ball initiated by the lower body moving back and away (with the back remaining nearly in the same angle throughout).
This took me literally thousands of hours of Research and Development to teach, using martial arts and other techniques blended from my experience with Hank Haney (Tiger Woods past golf swing coach). This is not easy and takes about 3 weeks to learn, however, the payback is well worth it for those that want to play pool for the foreseeable future. 'The GaMe is the Teacher'
Thank you. It must have been someone else who said that. Probably read it in BD.
A week ago, I had the pleasure of shooting, for 2 hours at home, my best session of pool in my 50 years of playing the game. I went beyond deadstroke into an area I've never been in before. It was almost surreal.
I've been thinking about why I was so "on." I determined that I was going down on the shot in perhaps a slightly different and less conscious manner. I remember the feeling as I bent over on set-up. It was effortless and my eyes and head stayed directly in the plane of the shot so nothing was out of place. That's how I consciously practice and that transfers to my competitive play, but this time was so different, it was spooky. My wife asked me if I was having a problem when I came to bed, as I was almost hypnotized by the event, and she was worried about my behavior.
I'll work on what you're saying here to do on set-up, vis a vis with my recent successful playing session.
Jeff Livingston
Good point, jburkm002.
I wonder why many of us focus on mechanics so much ? Is it because we can practice stroking straight and consistently at home w/o having to be at the pool hall ? Is it the nature for analytical, scientific types ? Aiming also seems to fall into this phenomenon.
Last edited:
FatzBrown
Registered
Evolution
Great topic...of course the answers are specific to the individual.
First few years I tried to emulate the filipino players' loose grip and bicycle strokes. Played that way my beginning years then hit a plateau. In an effort to improve learned about stance and mechanics. Then went the opposite - sold/stiff stroke with death grip & no elbow drop. Played that way for many years. Again on a plateau I've found some new concepts (Lee Brett's book opened some new ideas). In the past few weeks I've incorporated a looser grip, elbow drop & more defined pre-shot routine. I've probably gotten a ball or two better.
I think it's an evolution and keeping an open mind. Try out new things, give it a fair shake, keep what works - throw out what doesn't.
Great topic...of course the answers are specific to the individual.
First few years I tried to emulate the filipino players' loose grip and bicycle strokes. Played that way my beginning years then hit a plateau. In an effort to improve learned about stance and mechanics. Then went the opposite - sold/stiff stroke with death grip & no elbow drop. Played that way for many years. Again on a plateau I've found some new concepts (Lee Brett's book opened some new ideas). In the past few weeks I've incorporated a looser grip, elbow drop & more defined pre-shot routine. I've probably gotten a ball or two better.
I think it's an evolution and keeping an open mind. Try out new things, give it a fair shake, keep what works - throw out what doesn't.
you're game will "fall into place" more often.
Sometimes everything does "fall into place".
Just remember to control your eyes/head with the hips (center of your body) and control your tip with your back hand all the way to your shoulder (keep them connected) and you're game will "fall into place" more often.
Sometimes everything does "fall into place".
Just remember to control your eyes/head with the hips (center of your body) and control your tip with your back hand all the way to your shoulder (keep them connected) and you're game will "fall into place" more often.
You posted this previously about using the hips and torso to get down on the shot rather than just lowering the head over the table. I've found that doing this, combined with keeping my eye on the object ball, stops a lot of bad habits and poor alignments.
After achieving a straight alignment, you notice subtle flaws in your approach that you may have used to compensate previously. Trusting this new consistent view also gives your mental game a shot in the arm. As ball pocketing improves, so does your confidence and position play. Who knew?
Best,
Mike