Atlas Billiard Supplies fined $162,000 for illegal ivory export

I won't take side in the debate because I already know the right answer. :p

But I will point out that such statements as the one quoted above are a matter of perspective. Why is it not that they are on our turf? It's a rhetorical question.

OK.....back to the soap opera.....

This question might be might be minimally sensical if both elephants and humans were on the verge of extinction. Maybe you didn't notice?
 
This old exchange happened over 10 years ago on the old RSB (rec.sport.billiard) newsgroup. Much of this still holds true, save the price of ivory.

Anyhow, it is an interesting read if anyone cares to enlighten themselves a little.

http://www.cuemaster.com/RSB/ivory.htm

Nonsense. It isn't an exchange when no counter rebuttal is provided.

It's plainly ridiculous to pretend that the only possible source of revenue for elephant management is the sale of ivory.
 
In other words, it goes towards fining those that do not get a permit to import or export something that, in previous times, do not need a permit. Ahha, another "law" to support another government officials paycheck. Got to love America.

And Atlas was not convicted of selling illegal ivory. They were convicted of selling legal ivory illegally so this idea about getting it out of cues is quite odd. What should the ivory do? Sit in grandmas attic for another century? Should it all be burned? Maybe you would like the value of the disposed ivory included in your taxes to repay the owners for the loss of value? Or maybe grandma should be able to sell the tusk, that her husband paid good money to acquire, to help her pay her own burdening taxes.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com

No, actually it's to discourage the extinction of elephants but that doesn't seem to be a big concern for you.

If my taxes were used to buy up ivory and destroy it rather than a host of other things my taxes are used for I would be quite pleased.
 
No, actually it's to discourage the extinction of elephants but that doesn't seem to be a big concern for you.

If my taxes were used to buy up ivory and destroy it rather than a host of other things my taxes are used for I would be quite pleased.


Then poachers would just have to kill a bunch more to supply the demand.
Wherever there's a demand for something, there will be someone trying to fill it, whether it be legally, or illegally. I guess the forever ongoing waste, called the drug war, has taught you nothing. The more ivory that is burned, and wasted, the more dead elephants there will be. Yes, that is a period, and i'm glad this pleases you:thumbup:
 
Please show me where I tell you what YOUR moral responsibilities are. Calling me a bigot achieves very little. Speaking for myself only, I was not born with a knowledge of ethics and morality. I learned these things as I grew older. I learned from the writings and examples of others. They didn't tell me what my moral responsibilities are, they offered their views and I made informed decisions on how I live my life. My decisions are rarely based solely on what makes me feel good at the moment. I'm one of those "do gooders" who makes decisions based on what's best for everyone on this planet, because my decisions don't only affect me!

It's not my opinion that tells me we are destroying our planet and causing our own starvation. My "opinion" is based on extensive studies AND considering both sides of every issue.

It would be nice if we "let Africa run Africa" (do you , like "W", think that Africa is a country?), but sadly our foreign policy has a profound affect on all other nations (and continents, like Africa).
"American law is created to buy American votes"?? American law is largely created (ostensibly by Congress) to protect American business interests, regardless of what those "interests" do to the economy, workers or the environment.

Now, you have the right to insult me again, and the right not to listen to any other viewpoints. I won't bother to respond to any more name-calling.
If you're curious about my education, send me a PM.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

Excellent post from this Die Hard conservative. This is not a dem vs GOP thing, it's bigger than politics, it is a "just do the right thing".
 
[QUOTE=risky biz;3403325]No, actually it's to discourage the extinction of elephants but that doesn't seem to be a big concern for you.

If my taxes were used to buy up ivory and destroy it rather than a host of other things my taxes are used for I would be quite pleased.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if you read the link it does not discourage the extinction of elephants - but that doesn't seem to be a big concern for you. And if your read my previous post about Richard Leakey he admits that burning the ivory is the wrong thing to do, that instead it should be sold to raise money to help stop the poachers, which, if your read my post, the Kenyan government is not doing much to stop when it releases poachers shortly after they are caught.

And how can you be given a fine for not getting a permit for something that you can not get a permit to do?

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
We are the only animals that senselessly kill other animals for trivial aspects of our lives.

JV, you said there is a need for ivory. What need would that be? I can honestly only think of wants when it comes to ivory.

Your vagueness on the gorilla ashtrays leads one to believe it is acceptable to have one on the premise that the dead(murdered) animal has no need for them now, so we might as well use it.

To be clear, it is not ivory that is the problem, it is that these creatures with lifespans equal to ours at times are being senselessly killed for their tusks. Again, what real use does ivory hold in our times besides ornamental or decorative applications?

I asked about a strong religious upbringing, since no western religions deem animals as anything more than fodder for man to use whenever they deem necessary.

For the record, I do own a cue with ivory in it. When i bought the cue i was under the impression that ivory in cues was preban. I called Bob Runde yesterday and he informed me his ivory has been in the country for 50 years with documentation.

If it wasn't for our common love of pool cues, do you think you would have ivory in your life?

All kinds of ivory is used for many purposes. Elephant, warthog, walrus, etc.. however there is a right way to go about conservation and a wrong way. Africans cannot manage themselves let alone heards of elephants.
Its supply and demand, what they burned would go a long way to lessen the need. Burning that ivory did nothing but create more of a need. Why the need? Well, there are a lot of people that cue the ivory besides cuemakers.
Religion has ZERO to do with it.
Preban ivory is what is normally used in cues. Again, Atlas didn't have the paperwork. I can tell you that not everyone retains paperwork. I have bought tusks that were preban. Since they were dead LONG beforethe ban, there was no paperwork.

BTW you want to stop poaching, write to Africa and ask that it be punishable by death. I am sure that it might not stop it entirely, but it will slow it down.

JV
 
This is what you said:
"BTW if the cops could sell the drugs legally, which BTW the governments of Africa CAN do with the ivory, they would."

You think it makes economic sense for cops to sell heroin and use the proceeds to fight heroin trafficking. That's as nonsensical as selling ivory from elephants made extinct to use the proceeds to keep elephants from being made extinct.

You said:
"By burning that ivory they INCREASED the desire, or need for more ivory, hence more killing."

There's no NEED for ivory, as someone else has already pointed out. Taking ivory off the market INCREASES the PRICE which makes it less desirable. That's exactly why the amount Atlas was fined should have been much higher. So that the cost of trafficking in ivory would be so high that the demand for it would DECREASE and poachers wouldn't have any extinction advocates to sell to. Economics 101.

Then the elephants wouldn't become extinct- which is your main concern, right? Or was your main concern, "F*** the elephants. I want a piece of ivory on my cue to impress someone."

This was also not careless paperwork errors by Atlas as some here are trying to portray it. Their primary objective was to hide the amount of ivory being traded. The purpose of hiding the true amount of ivory being traded was to facilitate trading of illegal ivory.

Maybe I'll talk slower so you can get the point. Ivory has been sold BY the people that are protecting it. It was poached ivory. I said "IF" the cops could sell the drugs, meaning "IF" there was a LEGAL outlet to do so, they could then use that money to fight the illegal heroin trade.

You don't get the nature of people, the more desirable the items are, the MORE they WILL pay. The MORE they WILL pay, the more elephants will get poached. This is economics 101. This is the fact. You can never put it out of reach that no one can obtain it, or want it.

JV
 
Maybe I'll talk slower so you can get the point. Ivory has been sold BY the people that are protecting it. It was poached ivory. I said "IF" the cops could sell the drugs, meaning "IF" there was a LEGAL outlet to do so, they could then use that money to fight the illegal heroin trade.

You don't get the nature of people, the more desirable the items are, the MORE they WILL pay. The MORE they WILL pay, the more elephants will get poached. This is economics 101. This is the fact. You can never put it out of reach that no one can obtain it, or want it.

JV

Is there anything - animal, vegetable or mineral - that you WOULDN'T put on a cue if a customer requested it?
 
Is there anything - animal, vegetable or mineral - that you WOULDN'T put on a cue if a customer requested it?

Put this question in ask the cuemaker... I only buy / sell / trade.

But i have seen a cue made from a bull's penis. They "pop" up on ebay from time to time.

JV
 
You guys should give up. Some people just do not understand the concept of conservation. They simply don't want to understand. They focus on the words "killing" and "extinction" and latch on to them and don't care about the words "responsible management", "renewable resource", and "self sustaining income".

When responsible people are in charge of a renewable resource that generates an income and provides them a way of life, they will value its protection.

In the US, when a hunter goes and buys a hunting license, he is purchasing it from the wildlife and fisheries department. They have employees who monitor/survey/evaluate/study the wildlife. Their job is to make sure the environment is providing a healthy habitat for the survival of the species. If the numbers are down, guess what, the hunting license procured by the hunter allows fewer numbers to be harvested. When population numbers go up, harvesting goes up in order to strive for an equilibrium between the wildlife population and the environment. The hunters themselves who kill <gasp> the animals are helping to fund the management of the populations to guarantee the survival of the species in the future.

A good example of this is the American alligator. This is a quote from Wikipedia.

"Historically, alligators were depleted from many parts of their range as a result of market hunting and loss of habitat, and 30 years ago many people believed their population would never recover. In 1967, the alligator was listed as an endangered species (under a law that preceded the Endangered Species Act of 1973), meaning it was considered in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range.

A combined effort by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, state wildlife agencies in the South, and the creation of large, commercial alligator farms were instrumental in aiding the American alligator's recovery. The Endangered Species Act outlawed alligator hunting, allowing the species to rebound in numbers in many areas where it had been depleted. As the alligator began to make a comeback, states established alligator population monitoring programs and used this information to ensure alligator numbers continued to increase. In 1987, the Fish and Wildlife Service pronounced the American alligator fully recovered and consequently removed the animal from the list of endangered species. The Fish and Wildlife Service still regulates the legal trade in alligator skins and products made from them."

Did you follow that? The American alligator was on the endangered species list. What was the solution? The solution was wildlife management and commercial farming <gasp>. Hunting of the alligator was banned, monitoring and breeding programs were created (costs money), commercial farms were created (generates money), and then controlled hunting was re-instituted (generates more money). As a result, the population is healthy and striving without any threat to the longevity of the species. That is how conservation is supposed to work. Because alligators are not as majestic looking as an elephant and don't have the stigma attached to them that ivory has, people around the world were not trying to tell the US what to do and not do with their alligators. I don't have an ivory tusk in my display cabinet, but I do have an alligator head bought from Florida in my display cabinet.

It can work with elephants also. Elephants require a great deal of space per head. Someone said cattle has more of an affect on the environment than elephants. That is laughable. Perhaps collectively since cattle is in nearly every country in the world, but not per head.

It has been said over and over again. When a herd is closely managed and the sale of ivory is regulated, an elephant is not harvested FOR its ivory. An elephant is harvested for the good of the herd. Either it does not exhibit the best traits for survivability, it is old, it can no longer reproduce, it is weak, or the population is up and a population cull is warranted. When the animal is responsibly harvested, the reservation will generate income from the ivory, the hide, the meat will be used, etc. Some of the money will buy guns and bullets so the workers who are paid (there is that need for income again) to take care of the herd are a threat to poachers. Those workers will be making a living from managing and taking care of the herd, and will protect that living and honor the existence of the elephant. Poachers do not do that.

Poachers who would come in and kill an animal and cut the tusks and run leaving the carcass to rot will be robbing the reservation from many thousands of dollars. The threat is to both the elephant and the way of life of those who manage the herd. They won't take kindly to that, and neither will the courts when a poacher is caught. If there is no income and no thriving way of life threatened by poachers, then poaching has little consequence to those doling out sentences. But, if poachers are robbing money from the reservations, robbing tax money from the government, and threatening a way of life, they will be taken more seriously and judged more harshly. Guess what? Poaching will nearly stop.

As the population of the herd goes up and down, numbers that are allowed to be harvested goes up and down. The price of ivory and other elephant products goes up and down with it. This ensures the survivability of the species. That is conservation.

Kelly
 
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But i have seen a cue made from a bull's penis. They "pop" up on ebay from time to time.

No pun intended, I'm sure. Good one.

If someone brought that into my shop, there is no way in heck I'm putting a new tip on that.
Or maybe they come with a perpetual tip, you just have to re shape it.
 
Put this question in ask the cuemaker... I only buy / sell / trade.

But i have seen a cue made from a bull's penis. They "pop" up on ebay from time to time.

JV

I really, really need to know...you need to elaborate about bull's cocks.

Lurching back to ivory for a second, is there any substance - again, animal, vegetable or mineral - you wouldn't buy/sell/trade.
 
Some people just do not understand the concept of conservation.
Kelly

I don't think you understand conservation.

Elephants, and other rare animals, will always face the threat of extinction whilst there's poverty in Africa and demand in America. There's very little we can do on an individual basis about overall poverty, but demand can easily be curbed. It is reduced through peer pressure - shaming the act. When using ivory in pool cues is universally seen as shameful and disgusting, the poaching will stop.

If you want to modify behaviour, 1. shame the act, and 2. withdraw your dollar. I have made a note of the selfish and greedy and will not be buying anything from them, ever.
 
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Do you really think there is big enough market for ivory in pool cues, to stop poaching?

IMHO the use of ivory in pool cues is an afterthought, compared to other uses. Effect change in those uses, and poaching will stop.

I don't think you understand conservation.

Elephants, and other rare animals, will always face the threat of extinction whilst there's poverty in Africa and demand in America. There's very little we can do on an individual basis about overall poverty, but demand can easily be curbed. It is reduced through peer pressure - shaming the act. When using ivory in pool cues is universally seen as shameful and disgusting, the poaching will stop.

If you want to modify behaviour, 1. shame the act, and 2. withdraw your dollar. I have made a note of the selfish and greedy and will not be buying anything from them, ever.
 
Do you really think there is big enough market for ivory in pool cues, to stop poaching?

IMHO the use of ivory in pool cues is an afterthought, compared to other uses. Effect change in those uses, and poaching will stop.

Of course. I'm sure there are dozens of other ivory users who will shift the blame around as well. Ivory is the problem, not its individual use. The pool community should get its own house in order first.
 
I really, really need to know...you need to elaborate about bull's cocks.

Lurching back to ivory for a second, is there any substance - again, animal, vegetable or mineral - you wouldn't buy/sell/trade.

Being around pool all I know is bull sh*t, a lot has been put forth in this thread by the other side. A cue has a tip, it is leather (animal), wood that is harvested fore cues ultimately endangers the animals in the forest, the chemicals used for finishing, dying, etc.. all contribute negatively to the enviroment as a whole. Has this stopped anyone from playing pool? No.

The gas you use to drive to the pool room, etc.. etc ... etc... everything endangers an animal in some form or another. Everyone reading this thread I guess will now give up pool and run into the woods naked, right? I didn't think so, and lets be thankful for that.

JV
 
I don't think you understand conservation.

Elephants, and other rare animals, will always face the threat of extinction whilst there's poverty in Africa and demand in America. There's very little we can do on an individual basis about overall poverty, but demand can easily be curbed. It is reduced through peer pressure - shaming the act. When using ivory in pool cues is universally seen as shameful and disgusting, the poaching will stop.

If you want to modify behaviour, 1. shame the act, and 2. withdraw your dollar. I have made a note of the selfish and greedy and will not be buying anything from them, ever.

LOL... Cues cause poaching.. Better look at the global stage mate, you ain't even close.

You paddington bears make me so happy...

JV
 
You guys should give up. Some people just do not understand the concept of conservation. They simply don't want to understand. They focus on the words "killing" and "extinction" and latch on to them and don't care about the words "responsible management", "renewable resource", and "self sustaining income".

When responsible people are in charge of a renewable resource that generates an income and provides them a way of life, they will value its protection.

Kelly, you are absolutely right. Some of these "elightened scholars" are also some of the most ignorant and uninformed people out there. The facts are out there....but you have to look beyond the news headlines to get to them. Ivory is not the problem. The pool community is not the problem. If all the ivory here in the US was collected and done away with (along with the desire for it) and no more was EVER brought into the US, the elephants would still be facing an extremely grave situation. The demand from Asia (nothing to do with pool & billiards) is so great and elephants are not being conserved when they could and should be....plain and simple. Btw, poached ivory is not even suitable for the cue industry here as "green" ivory must season for decades before its stable enough to use.

It's a daunting task to conserve such an grand animal across multiple countries, most third world. Conservation IS the solution and I think that was TW's point in the article I posted. I pray all the involved governments do come up with an actual conservation plan before it's ultimately too late.
 
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