Atlas Billiard Supplies fined $162,000 for illegal ivory export

chevybob20 said:
So what do you suggest, start killing humans? I think that libs, Democrats and the like have got one thing right. That thing is the strong survive. We stupid humans have figured a way around that law. The weak aren't dying off and as a result are dragging down the human race. I have a program to help that out. If a person wants to save [insert wildlife type here] then they sign a list. But, when a child goes hungry or people die as a result, then take the first person on the list and shoot them. After a while the opposition to the human race will abate.

Maybe then the left will stop pushing the Nazi-like antihuman laws and start injecting common sense in the laws.
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The bold above is precisely the reason why Nietzche believed that Christianity was the worst thing ever invented for humanity. While Hitler twisted these philosophies significantly, that one part certainly informed his motivations to eradicate certain races (most notably Jews and gypsies). So unless you were quoting someone else with the bold above and disagreeing with it, your characterization of laws as being Nazi-like is quite hilarious. Kinda like showing up at a PETA rally to support them, but you're in a fur coat.

Hopefully I read you wrong. (Though excellent entertainment value if I didn't :thumbup:)

KMRUNOUT
 
We are the only animals that senselessly kill other animals for trivial aspects of our lives.

JV, you said there is a need for ivory. What need would that be? I can honestly only think of wants when it comes to ivory.

Your vagueness on the gorilla ashtrays leads one to believe it is acceptable to have one on the premise that the dead(murdered) animal has no need for them now, so we might as well use it.

To be clear, it is not ivory that is the problem, it is that these creatures with lifespans equal to ours at times are being senselessly killed for their tusks. Again, what real use does ivory hold in our times besides ornamental or decorative applications?

I asked about a strong religious upbringing, since no western religions deem animals as anything more than fodder for man to use whenever they deem necessary.

For the record, I do own a cue with ivory in it. When i bought the cue i was under the impression that ivory in cues was preban. I called Bob Runde yesterday and he informed me his ivory has been in the country for 50 years with documentation.

If it wasn't for our common love of pool cues, do you think you would have ivory in your life?
 
With the discovery of large deposits of oil our need for a number of items has disappeared. But taking all ivory out of pool cues is not going to stop ivory from being poached. And would you decide to ban all ivory use, including ivory that has been in this country maybe 100 years. Would you decide that the person who spent his money on it should lose ownership of the ivory, so that it could sit in a warehouse where no one could touch it ever again, and that the owner would receive no compensation for? Atlas is guilty of selling/shipping ivory out of the country without a permit. They are not guilty of poaching or of buying illegally acquired ivory. And financially they will recover just fine.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
KMRUNOUT said:
The bold above is precisely the reason why Nietzche believed that Christianity was the worst thing ever invented for humanity. While Hitler twisted these philosophies significantly, that one part certainly informed his motivations to eradicate certain races (most notably Jews and gypsies). So unless you were quoting someone else with the bold above and disagreeing with it, your characterization of laws as being Nazi-like is quite hilarious. Kinda like showing up at a PETA rally to support them, but you're in a fur coat.

Hopefully I read you wrong. (Though excellent entertainment value if I didn't :thumbup:)

KMRUNOUT
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I see you get the irony. The good always chooses life, especially human life over animal. When the tables are turned on those that wish harm on others sometimes the oppressors see the light.
 
Why do people like ivory anyway?, there are man made stuff that looks the part just like man made diamonds too. I guess when you say you bought a cue loaded with ivory it means your a baller or something like that. I know ivory joint and ferrules do affect hit. I did get my girl a 2 ct. diamond bracelet for Christmas but in reality I could have bought cz and she would not know the difference or that latest synthetic diamond that is tricking people everywhere. I was laughing as to why gold is so valuable, I suppose it all comes down to a material being rare or how much it cost to get your hands on it, gold mining, diamond mining, butchering of animals.

I have owned cues with ivory, I have no clue where the ivory came from but I imagine the animals did not die of old age regardless if its pre-ban and from over 50 years ago. We are the biggest predator on the planet, the earth one day might wipe us out so it has a clean slate and starts over again fresh with the usual suspects still around that were here since the dinosaurs. With all of our technology it will not surprise me if its not at our own hands, the sudden release of a biological weapon where we all are diseased zombies, nuclear warfare, or something with CERN and anti matter just eating everything up, many realistic possibilities. :)
 
I bet all you PETA pushers would be singing a different tune if these 2 ton deadly animals lived in your neighborhood. As far as i'm concerned the only reason to preserve them is for the ivory, and circus tricks:thumbup: As if african people don't have enough problems without having to worry about a herd of wild stampeding elephants. I swear, between you clowns, and the ASPCA, i can't even put my foot in my dogs ass when it deserves it, without comitting a felony:angry: Nuckinfutz, i tell ya, nuckinfutz.:grin-square:
 
danutz said:
I bet all you PETA pushers would be singing a different tune if these 2 ton deadly animals lived in your neighborhood. As far as i'm concerned the only reason to preserve them is for the ivory, and circus tricks:thumbup: As if african people don't have enough problems without having to worry about a herd of wild stampeding elephants. I swear, between you clowns, and the ASPCA, i can't even put my foot in my dogs ass when it deserves it, without comitting a felony:angry: Nuckinfutz, i tell ya, nuckinfutz.:grin-square:
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You cannot be serious right? I will take it your joking. I have no problem with large populations of animals being used for food and whatnot but this stuff is totally different, endangering a species is not right or making them extinct no matter how you look at it. If an animal was in a populated area killing people it should be put down but that is not a common thing I believe unless your on their turf which it seems we always are. The only time they go crazy on us is if they are circus pets and get free or like that idiot who let loose all those big cats, they had to be put down before a kid or something was killed, it still sucked.

P.S. As for kicking your dog when you lose a pool game, do you beat your kids too?
 
classiccues said:
I do get it, but we aren't talking heroin. Heroin is illegal and there is no outlet to sell it by the proper authorities. However, guess what, you can do that with the ivory because its been done before. In doing so they can get more manpower to stop the poachers, and lessen the need for ivory by introducing it into the market place.

By burning that ivory they INCREASED the desire, or need for more ivory, hence more killing.

JV
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This is what you said:
"BTW if the cops could sell the drugs legally, which BTW the governments of Africa CAN do with the ivory, they would."

You think it makes economic sense for cops to sell heroin and use the proceeds to fight heroin trafficking. That's as nonsensical as selling ivory from elephants made extinct to use the proceeds to keep elephants from being made extinct.

You said:
"By burning that ivory they INCREASED the desire, or need for more ivory, hence more killing."

There's no NEED for ivory, as someone else has already pointed out. Taking ivory off the market INCREASES the PRICE which makes it less desirable. That's exactly why the amount Atlas was fined should have been much higher. So that the cost of trafficking in ivory would be so high that the demand for it would DECREASE and poachers wouldn't have any extinction advocates to sell to. Economics 101.

Then the elephants wouldn't become extinct- which is your main concern, right? Or was your main concern, "F*** the elephants. I want a piece of ivory on my cue to impress someone."

This was also not careless paperwork errors by Atlas as some here are trying to portray it. Their primary objective was to hide the amount of ivory being traded. The purpose of hiding the true amount of ivory being traded was to facilitate trading of illegal ivory.
 
danutz said:
I bet all you PETA pushers would be singing a different tune if these 2 ton deadly animals lived in your neighborhood. As far as i'm concerned the only reason to preserve them is for the ivory, and circus tricks:thumbup: As if african people don't have enough problems without having to worry about a herd of wild stampeding elephants. I swear, between you clowns, and the ASPCA, i can't even put my foot in my dogs ass when it deserves it, without comitting a felony:angry: Nuckinfutz, i tell ya, nuckinfutz.:grin-square:
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I'm totally convinced that you have an exponentially greater concern about the fate of "african people" (lower case a?) than you do about the fate of elephants.

Let's face it. You guys think it's impressive to have something on your cue that required the violent killing of a BIG animal. Grow up.
 
Donny Lutz said:
JCIN said:
Pretty obvious they knew they were sticking their hand in the cookie jar and trying not to get caught. Uncle Sugar came for his pound of flesh and now things will move right along I suspect.

I wonder what the total budget is for fish cops in this nation? I bet if we really knew and understood what is spent we would be a lot more pissed at that number than at a few of Dumbo's relatives ending up as inlays.[/QUOTE

Dumbo, I believe, is a cartoon elephant. So I suppose his relatives would be Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse?
The ivory trade has led to the near extinction of elephants, not "a few...ending up as inlays".
Of course we realize the extreme strategic and economic importance of elephant ivory to the United States. And any good Christian, Jew or Muslim knows that only (certain groups of) humans have a right to life, so what's all the fuss about dumb animals?

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
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Except it hasn't - the reduced population is due almost entirely to loss
of habitat. Removing the economic value of elephants will almost certainly
ensure their extinction.

Have you read anything lately about the feared extinction of the cow.

Dale
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Fast Lenny said:
I believe unless your on their turf which it seems we always are.
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I won't take side in the debate because I already know the right answer. :p


But I will point out that such statements as the one quoted above are a matter of perspective. Why is it not that they are on our turf? It's a rhetorical question.

OK.....back to the soap opera.....
 
robertno1pool said:
So if they would have instead sold their ivory domestically in the U.S.A. to make a profit, then there would never had been a fine/probation/violation?


All I read was the newspaper article on improper paperwork since the ivory, wraps, etc. were exported.

Does someone have a link to more details that will clear this up?



Second point is what is the probation supposed to cover and what are the terms of the probation?
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Yes, the law prevents selling ivory to other countries.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
Yes, the law prevents selling ivory to other countries.

Dale
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"Atlas Fibre Company pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of violating the federal Endangered Species Act for failing to obtain an export permit from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, according to a release from the U.S. Department of Justice."

So, the law prevents selling ivory to other countries and Atlas pleaded guilty to failing to obtain an export permit. Now, if you can't sell to another country how can you get a permit? And if you can't get a permit how can you be convicted of not getting one? And why was the restitution the exact amount that FWS claimed they were cheated out of?

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
pdcue said:
Yes, the law prevents selling ivory to other countries.
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According to the article, the law prevents exporting ivory without a permit.

Is it not enough that pool is identified with illicit gambling and other kinds of degeneracy? Do we really need illegal ivory too? If we want the ivory, we should do our part to ensure it's fully legal.
 
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Donny Lutz said:
Please show me where I tell you what YOUR moral responsibilities are. Calling me a bigot achieves very little. Speaking for myself only, I was not born with a knowledge of ethics and morality. I learned these things as I grew older. I learned from the writings and examples of others. They didn't tell me what my moral responsibilities are, they offered their views and I made informed decisions on how I live my life. My decisions are rarely based solely on what makes me feel good at the moment. I'm one of those "do gooders" who makes decisions based on what's best for everyone on this planet, because my decisions don't only affect me!

It's not my opinion that tells me we are destroying our planet and causing our own starvation. My "opinion" is based on extensive studies AND considering both sides of every issue.

It would be nice if we "let Africa run Africa" (do you , like "W", think that Africa is a country?), but sadly our foreign policy has a profound affect on all other nations (and continents, like Africa).
"American law is created to buy American votes"?? American law is largely created (ostensibly by Congress) to protect American business interests, regardless of what those "interests" do to the economy, workers or the environment.

Now, you have the right to insult me again, and the right not to listen to any other viewpoints. I won't bother to respond to any more name-calling.
If you're curious about my education, send me a PM.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
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I'm glad you are so proud of your education and I'm sure it serves you well. Unfortunately those who feel superior to others because of their education are some of the most bigoted people I have ever been associated with. Education is not an "inoculation" against bigotry, in fact it is often the cause since it leads to feelings of superiority over the rest of us poor slobs.

An education not a guarantee of intelligence or superior deductive reasoning capability. Some of your statements are perfect examples of this.

and if you would like to hear about my education feel free to pm me!
 
Hierovision said:
It went to the Lacey Act renewal fund at the Fish and Wildlife Service. I'm assuming this goes directly to their Lacey Act enforcement resources.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/lacey_act/index.shtml
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In other words, it goes towards fining those that do not get a permit to import or export something that, in previous times, do not need a permit. Ahha, another "law" to support another government officials paycheck. Got to love America.

And Atlas was not convicted of selling illegal ivory. They were convicted of selling legal ivory illegally so this idea about getting it out of cues is quite odd. What should the ivory do? Sit in grandmas attic for another century? Should it all be burned? Maybe you would like the value of the disposed ivory included in your taxes to repay the owners for the loss of value? Or maybe grandma should be able to sell the tusk, that her husband paid good money to acquire, to help her pay her own burdening taxes.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
pdcue said:
Donny Lutz said:
Except it hasn't - the reduced population is due almost entirely to loss
of habitat. Removing the economic value of elephants will almost certainly
ensure their extinction.

Have you read anything lately about the feared extinction of the cow.

Dale
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Cattle consume exponentially greater amounts of natural resources and do exponentially greater amounts of damage to the environment than elephants.
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