ATTENTION- ABP News : ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events

I don't care if they hear my thoughts and their opinions simply mean nothing to me.

I've got a table at home, there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of tables within 30 minutes of my house, with PLENTY of people to compete against. I don't need "professioal" pool, and neither do millions of other people. Professional sports as a whole could just vanish into thin air as far as I'm concerned.

It's okay for some people to NOT think as others do. I'm sure there are plenty of people in this world that think like me, and plenty that think like you, and plenty that think like Justin, and so on....and so on.....

It is true what you say. The only popularity pool enjoys in mainstream America is recreational play, and that's okay. The league system is keeping an otherwise dead fish in the water alive when it comes to pocket billiards.

The most fun I ever had in my life was when I was playing on the leagues. I was a 6 out of a 7, though I probably was more like a strong 5, but I loved beating my opponents in competition, having my team rooting for me. I looked forward to seeing my friends, socializing, competing once a week. It was so much fun. Pool should be fun.

Professional pool is a tough nut to crack. It has evolved into something that is what I term as a "rich man's high." In the '70s and '80s, a nice hotel room cost about 30 bucks, and you could drive quite a long distance one full tank of gas. Heck, my car today gets about 300 miles on a full tank of gas. Since I quit traveling the pool tournament trail, my 2007 car today in just 4 short years has just 9,000 miles on it. My other car that I used to travel on the pool tournament trail accumulated 50,000 miles within 3 years. While I was out on the road, I wasn't earning much money as I do today when I'm not on the road. My partner did cash and win in tournaments, but you're just so stuck from previous tournaments due to expenses. You can't get ahead. So I'm spending a lot of money, e.g., travel, hotel, entry fees, food, house expenses, et cetera, not earning much money, and getting into huge debt to keep the pool dream alive. Welcome to the professional pool world in the United States of America that is the lifestyle of the majority of American aspiring pros.

Now, before somebody jumps on this thread and says, "Well, gee, nobody asked them to be a pro player. Tell 'em to get a doggone job and earn a living like the rest of us schmucks," I'm only providing this description for illustration purposes. I'm not going to debate the reasons why the so-called pros should get a job instead, though I will say that most employers may not be able to allow their employee pool pros to take off two, three, and four times every month to travel the globe to compete. AND, believe it or not, most pros must hit thousands of balls every day if they want to succeed. Why compete in the expensive pro tournaments if you aren't tuned up like a top? When you have a 9-to-5 job, it is difficult to find the requisite amount of time to practice. There's only so many hours in a day. Heck, when I used to return home from the week-long Derby City Classic or the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, it took me another week to recover.

The payouts in most pool tournaments today are the *exact* same as they were in the '70s and '80s. It is just too expensive to compete on the professional tournament trail unless you have somebody, a sponsor, a stakehorse, a friend, a spouse, a significant other paying your way. Even when you win, you are still stuck from other events. You must -- and I repeat "must" -- win, place, or show to break even on today's professional tournament trail, and the only one who's doing that consistently in America today is Shane.

The ABP wants to effect a change for the better, though using what seems like Charlie Williams' old UPA platform ain't the right direction to go. Gambling is repulsive to some pool purists, and mum pool played by tournament robots is equally repulsive to others. Is it possible to unite both sides, so that pool today is inviting to today's existing pool culture *and* mainstream America?

The ABP could benefit by seeking a comfortable middle ground in pool that will attract prospective non-pool-related industry sponsors. Mark Griffin can only finance so much in this pool world, but Lord knows he's trying. Even when he might not turn a profit, he continues to try, hoping for a good outcome down the road. And if the Seminoles Tour rumor is true, it paints an even more bleaker picture for today's American pros. Thank goodness for those with a deep passion for pool like Greg Sullivan, Mike Zuglan, Allen Hopkins, and Barry Behrman. None of these promoters are getting rich with their efforts in pool, but they keep plugging away, trying to break even and earn enough profit to live off of throughout the coming year. And then there's the regional tour operators who continue to keep pool alive in their regions, sometimes against a strong current of unrest if they pocket one penny of profit that doesn't go into the pool players' pockets.

These regional tours are fillers for the pros, keeping them in shape, but today some regional tours have banned pros from competition in their events, or if they do allow the pros to play in their tournaments, the pros must provide a handicap and/or pay a higher entry fee. I am reminded of a recent one-hole tourney when my other half, who hadn't hit a ball in about 4 or 5 years, had to spot his opponent 13 to 4 in one-pocket. Pool pros in the States are looked at as pariahs at some pool venues.

I don't have the answer to what ails professional pool in the States. If I did, I'd be doing it, because I do care about the future of pool as a sport. For now, I accept that pool is a recreational game. Until the ABP can come up with a brand-new vision or mission for their organization to elevate professional-level pool and unite all sides of the equation, they're going to continue to have one ABP tire in the mud. The top few in their organization will reap the benefits, if any, and all the other members will struggle, just like the majority of UPA members did, eventually sinking into an inevitable abyss of nonexistence. Sad to say but true.

What is it about today's pool organizations that have no transparency? Rules are changed willy-nilly, and decisions are made behind a curtain that create a caste system in pool. ABPpros member will continue post anonymously with his/her hit-and-run threads. The rich get richer, and the poor leave the sport. Soon we'll have all Chiefs and no Indians.
 
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One of the traits of a mature adult is the ability to compromise. Holding your breath like a 5 year old doesn't seem to be the proper stance of a "professional" organization.

It's not breath holding. What ABP is doing is a form of a strike.

It's really more simple than it looks. Not every pro pool player is making enough money to live at the moment, which let's face it, is unfair. Some jocks who kick a ball around a 100-yard pitch make enough money to feed the entire central Africa, and Corey Deuel who is equally talented and has dedicated his life in pool is not even in the 2011 player money list.

Everything ABP has stated in its guidelines is about making money out of the game. Seeding takes the draw factor out of the table, and so are call shots. Minimum added fees give the players more decent payouts. What they are trying to do is make more pros get paid. Why is this bad? That's why they are called pros anyway. Why is it bad to help out more people who have been playing pool for their entire lives and are talented enough to win major events?

If ABP had never lifted their boycott on the US Open, who exactly would have bought the streaming PPV from Accu-stats? I know I wouldn't. I would pay to watch Archer or Shane. The same goes for more tournaments in the future who won't accept the rules from ABP. Perhaps there are going to be negotiations and a rule or two may change in the guidelines, but I think that some tournaments are going to be boycotted by the ABP players and it would be really interesting to see what happens to those tournaments in terms of attendance or non-free live streaming.

On the other hand, when more and more tournaments compromise with the ABP, a proper Pro tour will start kicking in. When things will get more serious and professional, I am sure that sponsors outside the game of pool will start chipping in. ABP's strategy is not wrong and this is not a troll thread either. There are professionals out there who rely on gambling, teaching and trick shots to make a living when they could make this money from tournaments alone just like snooker players. What we need is a proper pro tour and sponsorship will come along.

And I don't understand what the fuss is all about with pros boycotting certain events. There are going to be pro tourneys and amateur tourneys just like every other sport. Why would I want to play Appleton after all? He should play with players of his caliber in an all-pro tournament. Pool will live on with different types of tournaments.

P.S. @JAM
Thanks, it's nice to know that someone agrees with you.
 
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It's not breath holding. What ABP is doing is a form of a strike.

It's really more simple than it looks. Not every pro pool player is making enough money to live at the moment, which let's face it, is unfair. Some jocks who kick a ball around a 100-yard pitch make enough money to feed the entire central Africa, and Corey Deuel who is equally talented and has dedicated his life in pool is not even in the 2011 player money list.

Everything ABP has stated in its guidelines is about making money out of the game. Seeding takes the draw factor out of the table, and so are call shots. Minimum added fees give the players more decent payouts. What they are trying to do is make more pros get paid. Why is this bad? That's why they are called pros anyway. Why is it bad to help out more people who have been playing pool for their entire lives and are talented enough to win major events?

If ABP had never lifted their boycott on the US Open, who exactly would have bought the streaming PPV from Accu-stats? I know I wouldn't. I would pay to watch Archer or Shane. The same goes for more tournaments in the future who won't accept the rules from ABP. Perhaps there are going to be negotiations and a rule or two may change in the guidelines, but I think that some tournaments are going to be boycotted by the ABP players and it would be really interesting to see what happens to those tournaments in terms of attendance or non-free live streaming.

On the other hand, when more and more tournaments compromise with the ABP, a proper Pro tour will start kicking in. When things will get more serious and professional, I am sure that sponsors outside the game of pool will start chipping in. ABP's strategy is not wrong and this is not a troll thread either. There are professionals out there who rely on gambling, teaching and trick shots to make a living when they could make this money from tournaments alone just like snooker players. What we need is a proper pro tour and sponsorship will come along.

And I don't understand what the fuss is all about with pros boycotting certain events. There are going to be pro tourneys and amateur tourneys just like every other sport. Why would I want to play Appleton after all? He should play with players of his caliber in an all-pro tournament. Pool will live on with different types of tournaments.

P.S. @JAM
Thanks, it's nice to know that someone agrees with you.

So tell me, is this how snooker was created, by its players forming an association and setting guidelines for promoters, or was it born in another manner?
 
Excellent points, JimmyWhite,

It's not breath holding. What ABP is doing is a form of a strike.
That's exactly what it's an attempt at, a "strike". And the ABP "employees" haven't really given "management" a chance to refuse thier "demands".
But even when the employees strike, they meet management at the negotiating table and try to compromise and make it a win-win for everybody. The ABP, with these "press releases", hasn't even attempted to negotiate.

It's really more simple than it looks. Not every pro pool player is making enough money to live at the moment, which let's face it, is unfair. Some jocks who kick a ball around a 100-yard pitch make enough money to feed the entire central Africa, and Corey Deuel who is equally talented and has dedicated his life in pool is not even in the 2011 player money list.
True, but even the pro players of yesteryear knew enough that pool couldn't be thier primary source of income. Mizerak was a school teacher, Crane sold cars, etc. My wife and I both work, but we base our day-to-day living on one income. And I learned a long time ago, don't spend the money until it's in your hands.
We don't have all our eggs in one basket, which is what the ABP players want to do with 'professional pool'.

Everything ABP has stated in its guidelines is about making money out of the game. Seeding takes the draw factor out of the table, and so are call shots. Minimum added fees give the players more decent payouts. What they are trying to do is make more pros get paid. Why is this bad? That's why they are called pros anyway. Why is it bad to help out more people who have been playing pool for their entire lives and are talented enough to win major events?
I agree, if I were a pro pool player, I would want to increase my chances of a bigger payday. Heck, I'm NOT a pro player, and I want to make more money. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make more money.
But when someone tries to shove thier "demands" down my throat, I'm gonna tell 'em to go pound salt up thier you-know-what.

If ABP had never lifted their boycott on the US Open, who exactly would have bought the streaming PPV from Accu-stats? I know I wouldn't. I would pay to watch Archer or Shane. The same goes for more tournaments in the future who won't accept the rules from ABP. Perhaps there are going to be negotiations and a rule or two may change in the guidelines, but I think that some tournaments are going to be boycotted by the ABP players and it would be really interesting to see what happens to those tournaments in terms of attendance or non-free live streaming.
If a boycott were to really happen (i.e. if the pros were dumb enough to really pass on a paycheck), it would be just like any other job where a few employees decide to quit. There are plenty of players ready to be King Of The Mountain. Archer and Putnam wanna "take a stand" ? Fine. People will just start watching Bucky or Grau knock Antonakos or Heidrich onto the left side of the brackets.
It would be tough on the industry at first, but the boycotting pros would find out the hard way that the company machine runs on standard parts.

On the other hand, when more and more tournaments compromise with the ABP, a proper Pro tour will start kicking in. When things will get more serious and professional, I am sure that sponsors outside the game of pool will start chipping in. ABP's strategy is not wrong and this is not a troll thread either. There are professionals out there who rely on gambling, teaching and trick shots to make a living when they could make this money from tournaments alone just like snooker players. What we need is a proper pro tour and sponsorship will come along.
I agree, but at this point, all the ABP wants to do is make demands. And nothing else. All I've seen come from the ABP is "We want this, we want that". Press releases, and even here on this forum, demands.
Truthfully, this forum would have been the perfect "soapbox" to get input from the billiard community. But thier approach so far has the same appeal as an employee that you're just looking for a reason to pull the trigger on and can thier a$$e$.

And I don't understand what the fuss is all about with pros boycotting certain events. There are going to be pro tourneys and amateur tourneys just like every other sport. Why would I want to play Appleton after all? He should play with players of his caliber in an all-pro tournament. Pool will live on with different types of tournaments.
Do I wanna draw a pro in the first or second round ? Not really. But that's the chance I take when I pay the TD to play. And I know that going in.
Hey, let 'em boycott. Far as I'm concerned, if I get in the groove and catch a gear, I've got a shot at beating anybody. As long as I stay at the table, doesn't matter who's sitting in the chair. Unlike a contact sport, the guy keepin' the seat warm cannot directly affect my game if I keep him there.

I am in control of my own destiny. If I want to better myself on the table, then I have to put the time and effort in. If I want to grow financially, I need to put the time and effort in. If I want to get in better shape physically, I need to put the time and effort in.

Seems that the ABP doesn't know what "time" and "effort" are, unless it pertains to the immediate gain of the cash posted on the light.

(This one's for you, JAM) The ABP's new theme song can be found HERE.
 
So tell me, is this how snooker was created, by its players forming an association and setting guidelines for promoters, or was it born in another manner?

Snooker became popular when the BBC launched a small tournament on the TV in the late 60s. Then, World Rankings came in, a World Championship, several pro tournaments started, and then finally sponsors started showing interest in the game. It is not the exact same pattern but as you can see, these things go together.

Mickey, the ABP has made their demands public, and probably negotiations with several TDs are going to happen in the future. Maybe this will make radical changes for the sport, and make it truly professional at last.
 
Yeah, quit expecting money from SOMEONE elses pockets. And you Justin, can post ANY opinion in ANY thread on this site you want to last time I checked. Are we ALL supposed to think exactly like you???

Sorry for having an opinion...........NOT!!!

Maniac

You know my name, what is yours?

You know what they say about opinions. If you had read anything I posted you would see that the only thing I am advocating is a self sustaining tour that can survive without any outside investment. The only money from someone else's pockets would be the money from customers who want watch the product.

The whole "I dont need pro pool, I'll play in my basement." mentality is fine. Go start your own thread about forming your own ABP: American Basement Players and let those of us with an interest in pro pool and its survival have this one.
 
In any serious tournament the players should be seeded, as long as there is a reliable ranking system to base the seeding on.

Just imagine a tennis tournament where Federer and Nadal meet each other in the first round.

Your scenerio would be accurate with 1 major exception. In Tennis, TV, Media and ticket sales are some of the main reasons for a seeding due to the income stream for the events it generates. Millions of people from around the world see the events on TV and hundreds of thousands pay ticket prices to sit in the stands and watch.
I love pool don't get me wrong but the last pro event I went to and particapated in you could probably count the spectator's on a few hands.
There may be an exception like the US open but how many of these events are there a year to participate in?
Nothing against the rankings system or the top Pro's they fight for every penny they get and with a seeding system it helps them get into the money rounds.
Personally I don't see a big benefit in the seeding issue it's basically there for the players in my opinion.
 
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Hi Sunny, hope you're well.


2) ABP is not joining in the discussion because their demands are not, at this point, negotiable. I am surprised that you are surprised by their absence in this thread, LOL. Their participaton, to me, would be far more shocking.

3) ABP is not defending itself because its position is indefensible. The mapping out of pool's future must be done by all who have a significant stake in the sport's future.
I am surprised that you are surprised that he is surprised.

I agree, ABP engaging in dialogue with the public is basically a no-win.

Woulda been so at the beginning, middle too.
 
You know my name, what is yours?

My name is Tony Metz. I live in Mansfield, Texas. FTR, I can post MY opinions in ANY thread I wish. You cannot bully me off of this one. You don't like what I say, put me on the ignore list. I cannot understand why some people "nut out" when somebody else says something other than what THEY want to hear. Some people get wa-a-a-ay too emotional when it comes to discussing professional pool.

The American "professional" pool scene is in shambles. One of the best tours in this country (Seminole Pro Tour) is in trouble. The APB (unless something changes soon) is a recipe for disaster. Not many people pay money to go watch a pool tournament, and that's probably not going to change anytime soon. If the gate and entry fees cannot sufficiently make payouts better, then the $$$ the pros seek must come from someone's generosity. Aside from all the "pros" problems, pool is alive and well in America.

There, I said it. Again!!! :p

Tony "Maniac" Metz
 
It would be nice if someone had a pro tour with good added money in the U.S. and banned the couple bad eggs that are the ABP......
Noone would miss them. (Then you could watch them on thier knees begging to be forgotten)
If I ever have the chance they will be banned from the inception.....
And they and everyone else has a good idea of who the 2 or 3 players behind this is.
 
I am surprised that you are surprised that he is surprised.

I agree, ABP engaging in dialogue with the public is basically a no-win.

I agree with what you agree with. But if that is the case, and all of us know it, then why does the ABP come onto these very forums, and post in these very forums. Under the guise of ABP Pros, not by anyone identifiable.

Then the ABP promptly ceases participation in a thread that they started, in a forum where they shouldn't be in the first place. (Unless they are serious in actually soliciting input from the pool playing public.)

I'll say it again. The ABP needs direction, specifically in how they handle public relations. If you're gonna come onto these forums, ya better have your stuff together, and ya better be prepared to have a dialog. If ya aren't ready and/or able to do that, simply issue a press release on the main AZB site.
 
If you had read anything I posted you would see that the only thing I am advocating is a self sustaining tour that can survive without any outside investment. The only money from someone else's pockets would be the money from customers who want watch the product.

You do realize that what you described right now is pool in its current state? All sports have big sponsors. It would be nice to put a pool table in the middle of a football field and fill the whole stadium with spectators. The income from the tickets would be enough to pay for the prize money of the entire US Open, the Seminole etc. etc. But guess what? It can't be done because pool at its current state only appeals to pool players who are not enough to fill an entire row of seats in the above example. How many will watch the accustats live ppv of this year's open? 100? 1000 tops? You don't want something bigger than that?

If pro pool does not get serious live TV coverage anytime soon, then we will remain where we are. We will be a couple hundred people arguing about what is wrong with pool not being popular anymore, when we know that there is no serious, organized pro tour with rankings that may attract major sponsorship, which will eventually lead to TV time.

It would be nice if someone had a pro tour with good added money in the U.S. and banned the couple bad eggs that are the ABP......
Noone would miss them. (Then you could watch them on thier knees begging to be forgotten)
If I ever have the chance they will be banned from the inception.....
And they and everyone else has a good idea of who the 2 or 3 players behind this is.

Damn right you are. These good-for-nothing arrogant sharks want to steal our money! They want to degrade all current pool tournaments. We must stop them before they come into our houses and chop the wood out of our tables to make cues for themselves! If you ask them why, they will tell you that they are pros and they can do what they want! Hell, they came into MY house, stole my entire table, my cues, ate my lunch and John Schmidt took my wife as well!
Burn the witches!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU

(*cough* sarcasm)
 
My name is Tony Metz. I live in Mansfield, Texas. FTR, I can post MY opinions in ANY thread I wish. You cannot bully me off of this one. You don't like what I say, put me on the ignore list. I cannot understand why some people "nut out" when somebody else says something other than what THEY want to hear. Some people get wa-a-a-ay too emotional when it comes to discussing professional pool.

The American "professional" pool scene is in shambles. One of the best tours in this country (Seminole Pro Tour) is in trouble. The APB (unless something changes soon) is a recipe for disaster. Not many people pay money to go watch a pool tournament, and that's probably not going to change anytime soon. If the gate and entry fees cannot sufficiently make payouts better, then the $$$ the pros seek must come from someone's generosity. Aside from all the "pros" problems, pool is alive and well in America.

There, I said it. Again!!! :p

Tony "Maniac" Metz

How in the hell am I trying to "bully" you on a message board? Grow up man. As far as "nuting out" you seem to be the only one getting excited here because I simply said I dont see the need to post basically a non-opinion. Saying you don't care about a given topic adds nothing to the conversation other than basically saying " I want everyone to know that I am important enough to think it matters to all of you that I have no interest in this subject." Basically I just think its funny and don't understand the need to make those posts.
 
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