Back pain = change stance?

CaptainJR

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.
Silver Member
I mentioned in another thread that in two recent tournaments I've had to leave before elimination because of pain. A little history is in order for this post, so here it is.

Broke my back in 1972. Spinal fusion at T12 L1. Just a little below what I would call the center of my back. Where they did the fusion isn't the problem. It is just below that, in the joints that have had to do all the extra work because of the immobility of the three vertebra that were fused. Disks getting worn out, arthritis building up. I'm pretty much in at least some pain 24 hours a day. Sometimes it's not so bad, others it is very bothersome (understatement). Seems to depend on how much I misuse it. Then there is the pain that shoots down through my right leg. When that sets in, it is the end of productivity. There you have it. The VA hasn't said anything about any operations, but I wouldn't do it anyway. I know too many people that have had back operations and ended up worse off then they were to begin with.

This thread is not about asking what to do to help my back get better. Not really interested in hearing about that. Been there, done that.

What this is about is what I can do when playing pool that will allow me to play longer without ending up in so much pain. The biggest problem is when I'm trying to practice. Can't seem to get myself to sit down after several shots, I just go at it until the pain makes me stop. If I'm playing against someone, I get to sit and take a break during the match. Even then, if playing matches over a period of hours it will get to me eventually. For what ever reason, this has become considerably worse in the last few months. Lately when I've went to the basement to practice I've had to stop in 15 to 30 minutes. Certainly not enough time to maintain any kind of skill level. It has been very obvious to me, in the last month especially, that I'm not playing very well. Use to be that at the end of my inning I'd sit down and notice I was in pain, evidently during the shooting I must have been concentrating enough to ignore it. Not now, it is just too much.

On Tuesday and Wednesday in my basement and last night at league, when ever possible (most shots), I started bending at the knees instead of at the waist. This is an entire new position. It is putting my bridge farther away from the cue ball. My head is way back on the stick and my back elbow is probably in some kind of concocted chicken wing position. Doing this on as many shots as I can, (can't do this on shots that I have to reach for), I was able to practice for an hour before having to stop and even then I could have went on a while longer but figured I should stop at that point.

Why make this post? I guess I'm hoping for some support that I might be able to continue getting better at the game even though my stance is going from a good stance to this one that will probably have people laughing at me behind my back. I'm mean, I can just imagine what this looks like from a spectators point of view. Probably looks like I'm bending down trying to fart or something. LOL

Anyone have anything to say? Do you think I can get in the wheel chair tournaments?
 
how low do you get in your regular stance? Im kinda tall and there for awhile i was trying to get really low in my stance, chin about touching my cue........and it seemed ok, i mean it seemed where i SHOULD be ya know? I was really down on the shot and it felt right. Well after awhile I noticed if I played pool too many nights in a row my lower back would give me hell.
Then one day I was watching one of those legends of pool abc sports shows and lassiter was playing and I couldnt help but notice how far up off his cue he was. I mean you compare him to players of today who are right down there and its like night and day. Well it was a couple nights later and I was playing a guy, just messing around not being serious, and my back was sore anyway and i was kind of staying up over my shot some and i was shooting fantastic. I wasnt trying to stay up innaturally high, i was just not going down to the point my back hurt. Evidently that scrunched up stance was probably giving me chicken elbow too and who knows what else.....staying up over the cue some let my game jump up a couple levels and I never looked back. So can you just get into a regular stance with your body up over your cue like 8 or 10 inches, or are you already about there and your back is hurting anyway?
 
I have come to the admission that playing pool hurts by low back. I think it is mainly from leaning forward on the table, weight on thighs, while racking.
Percocet seems to help:eek:
 
scottycoyote said:
how low do you get in your regular stance? Im kinda tall and there for awhile i was trying to get really low in my stance, chin about touching my cue........and it seemed ok, i mean it seemed where i SHOULD be ya know? I was really down on the shot and it felt right. Well after awhile I noticed if I played pool too many nights in a row my lower back would give me hell.
Then one day I was watching one of those legends of pool abc sports shows and lassiter was playing and I couldnt help but notice how far up off his cue he was. I mean you compare him to players of today who are right down there and its like night and day. Well it was a couple nights later and I was playing a guy, just messing around not being serious, and my back was sore anyway and i was kind of staying up over my shot some and i was shooting fantastic. I wasnt trying to stay up innaturally high, i was just not going down to the point my back hurt. Evidently that scrunched up stance was probably giving me chicken elbow too and who knows what else.....staying up over the cue some let my game jump up a couple levels and I never looked back. So can you just get into a regular stance with your body up over your cue like 8 or 10 inches, or are you already about there and your back is hurting anyway?
Click to expand...


This is exactly the kind of reply I needed. I've always been pretty low to the cue. So while trying this new stance I was still getting down low. I think maybe the new stance wouldn't be so awkward if I keep my chin up just a little bit. Like you said, maybe 8-10 inches above the cue. I'll try that tonight.
Thank you very much.
JR
 
A couple of thoughts

I practiced a couple of hours yesterday. This was six weeks after a radical back surgery and months before I was supposed to be able to. I normally shoot with the arm in a fairly natural position and the body twisted. Somewhere along the line yesterday the back had enough of this twisting BS and I squared up with my shot much more. I couldn't get as low; much like ScottyC, I found some benefits. Binocular vision was working much better and tough cuts that have been eating my lunch in recent years were falling very noticeably more often.

After much testing and research, I went with the most radical of three surgery options. I was more than a little concerned headed to the table. From what I had read before surgery they were going to field dress me, operate, and reassemble. Whatever they did, I slept through it and I already detect major improvements when my recovery percentage is still very low.

Sending you a PM about something related but not directly concerning the back.

Hu




CaptainJR said:
I mentioned in another thread that in two recent tournaments I've had to leave before elimination because of pain. A little history is in order for this post, so here it is.

Broke my back in 1972. Spinal fusion at T12 L1. Just a little below what I would call the center of my back. Where they did the fusion isn't the problem. It is just below that, in the joints that have had to do all the extra work because of the immobility of the three vertebra that were fused. Disks getting worn out, arthritis building up. I'm pretty much in at least some pain 24 hours a day. Sometimes it's not so bad, others it is very bothersome (understatement). Seems to depend on how much I misuse it. Then there is the pain that shoots down through my right leg. When that sets in, it is the end of productivity. There you have it. The VA hasn't said anything about any operations, but I wouldn't do it anyway. I know too many people that have had back operations and ended up worse off then they were to begin with.

This thread is not about asking what to do to help my back get better. Not really interested in hearing about that. Been there, done that.

What this is about is what I can do when playing pool that will allow me to play longer without ending up in so much pain. The biggest problem is when I'm trying to practice. Can't seem to get myself to sit down after several shots, I just go at it until the pain makes me stop. If I'm playing against someone, I get to sit and take a break during the match. Even then, if playing matches over a period of hours it will get to me eventually. For what ever reason, this has become considerably worse in the last few months. Lately when I've went to the basement to practice I've had to stop in 15 to 30 minutes. Certainly not enough time to maintain any kind of skill level. It has been very obvious to me, in the last month especially, that I'm not playing very well. Use to be that at the end of my inning I'd sit down and notice I was in pain, evidently during the shooting I must have been concentrating enough to ignore it. Not now, it is just too much.

On Tuesday and Wednesday in my basement and last night at league, when ever possible (most shots), I started bending at the knees instead of at the waist. This is an entire new position. It is putting my bridge farther away from the cue ball. My head is way back on the stick and my back elbow is probably in some kind of concocted chicken wing position. Doing this on as many shots as I can, (can't do this on shots that I have to reach for), I was able to practice for an hour before having to stop and even then I could have went on a while longer but figured I should stop at that point.

Why make this post? I guess I'm hoping for some support that I might be able to continue getting better at the game even though my stance is going from a good stance to this one that will probably have people laughing at me behind my back. I'm mean, I can just imagine what this looks like from a spectators point of view. Probably looks like I'm bending down trying to fart or something. LOL

Anyone have anything to say? Do you think I can get in the wheel chair tournaments?
Click to expand...
 
yeah at first you feel like you cant aim....youre not looking at the ball like you were before, but you just have to do it for awhile and learn to trust it. Between being up over the ball and using hal's aiming system my potting ability jumped way up.
 
scottycoyote said:
yeah at first you feel like you cant aim....youre not looking at the ball like you were before, but you just have to do it for awhile and learn to trust it. Between being up over the ball and using hal's aiming system my potting ability jumped way up.
Click to expand...

I have high hopes. Not really trying to improve right now, just maintain. The competition I play against in 9 ball and 2 or 3 missed shots in a race to 7 isn't nearly good enough.
Thanks again
JR
 
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Giving up. The new stance didn't really help much if at all. Maybe a little more at first. I just can't play for any length of time. Practice time is limited to maybe 10 to 15 minutes till I have to quit. Playing time depends on who I'm playing and what kind of chairs are available, but it isn't that long till my concentration is hampered by trying to find a comfortable way to bend down to the shot. There isn't one.

I figure I can still play league night. Only 4 games in a few hours. As long as the team understands that without practice my game is going to suffer and as long as I don't have to sit on a bar stool.

Just call me a La-Z-Boy potato from now on I guess.
 
CaptainJR,

This is a sad thing for me to read on a Monday morning. I'm sure most of us if not all that post here have a true love for this game and can relate. I hate to hear that you need to cut back on your playing time. I am no doctor and don't know your overall condition. I think that your stomach muscles help support your lower back. If there is a way for you to strengthen them with your back problems it might help.

Regards,

Kevin
 
Please don't take this the wrong way.....

Another option might be the wheelchair route while playing/practising. In our league we have several folks that are wheelchair bound. They play exceptionally well. I was also watching the wheelchair nationals and scotch doubles on ESPN.

The advantage is these guys are low enough to the table for sighting the shot. They also become exceptional using the bridge. Just a thought.
 
If you have your own table, see if you can have the playing surface raised to a height of 33-34". It will make a huge difference from the usual 30" height.

Other things to try are bending the knees instead of the back, and a more "snookerlike" stance where you are square to the shot line rather than twisting over it.
 
I used to know a guy that kept his back vertical and bent at the knees.

You need to strengthen your legs with weights and work your abs to become comfortable in this position.

1.5 hrs a day in the gym, 2-3 times a week, you can achieve such a stance and shoot comfortably within it in about 1 year.
 
stance(long)

I'm in much the same boat after a major back surgery. I can't find a stance that feels right for shooting that I can use for any length of time. The stances recommended in books and video's just aren't going to happen. That being the case, I have been looking closely at stances both of the better local shooters and on the TV matches and the video's I have of competitions.

Several things I have noticed: First, the people advocating one stance or another are considerably shorter than I am. For their stance to work for me even without back issues the table would have to be raised at least three to four inches. Second, many very good shooters have far from textbook stances. Finally, I noticed that regardless of the positioning of feet and body position that I consider correct, the realities of shooting on a nine footer often force me from this position, usually into one more square with the table.

I bend at the hips better than anything else. The legs can help me down to the table too. Locking either knee is far more strain on the back than locking neither. I'm none to sure that a slightly bent knee isn't more stable than a locked knee anyway. When push comes to shove, shot making relies on aim and what the arm wrist and hand are doing from the elbow down with a small consideration given to the shoulder.

My last long practice session went horribly. As pain and stiffness progressed I went from shooting so-so to shooting terribly. I felt very awkward getting down over the ball and my arm felt out of position. Having far more persistence than sense, I kept on shooting for hours. I'd shoot balls for a little while to relax and keep moving back to drills, which showed just how poorly I was shooting. Finally, when shooting a simple drill that JoeyA recommended I noticed that I steered the cue ball one way on slow shots, the other way on harder shots.

The secret seemed not to be in my stance but the corrections I was trying to make for it. With my wrist slightly cocked sometimes, I was steering with my grip. Focusing on my wrist and grip the last thirty minutes of the day, balls were rolling on the nine footer almost like I was on a bar table. I did find that I have adjusted my aim for increased throw on some of the shots requiring a firm stroke. I now find that some of this "throw" is actually me steering my stroke. After I correct these issues my ball making ability should be respectable again. I have also noticed that my bridge is questionable at times. One more thing I thought was a given that I have to deal with.

To boil this long post down to essentials: Forget a classic stance for now, it may no longer be possible for you. Focus on delivering a proper stroke with the proper wrist position and grip regardless of the stance you are in at a given time. Your aim from various positions will improve as you get used to not always having much the same angle. I think you and I can reach 85 to 95% of our old shot making ability accepting these things. I think we will both have to make up the difference in increased smarts at the table. More care given to setting up runs for shots we can easily get to, and zero careless mistakes, we can't afford them.

Hope this is at least food for thought. I'm still in the middle of my journey too.

Hu


CaptainJR said:
Giving up. The new stance didn't really help much if at all. Maybe a little more at first. I just can't play for any length of time. Practice time is limited to maybe 10 to 15 minutes till I have to quit. Playing time depends on who I'm playing and what kind of chairs are available, but it isn't that long till my concentration is hampered by trying to find a comfortable way to bend down to the shot. There isn't one.

I figure I can still play league night. Only 4 games in a few hours. As long as the team understands that without practice my game is going to suffer and as long as I don't have to sit on a bar stool.

Just call me a La-Z-Boy potato from now on I guess.
Click to expand...
 
CaptainJR said:
Giving up. The new stance didn't really help much if at all. Maybe a little more at first. I just can't play for any length of time. Practice time is limited to maybe 10 to 15 minutes till I have to quit. Playing time depends on who I'm playing and what kind of chairs are available, but it isn't that long till my concentration is hampered by trying to find a comfortable way to bend down to the shot. There isn't one.

I figure I can still play league night. Only 4 games in a few hours. As long as the team understands that without practice my game is going to suffer and as long as I don't have to sit on a bar stool.

Just call me a La-Z-Boy potato from now on I guess.
Click to expand...
Hi Jr, I have had the same thing happen to me. I just had lower back surg about a year ago now and to be honest it dosent get much better. I had a disk replaced and 6 screws put in my spine. I was an A to an B+ player at one time and my game really went fast from my back pain. Now after my surg. I have started to work out some and walk a lot. I do a lot of stomic exec. and it does help. I also bought me a Bowflex and i think over all i am getting better. I do find that i can play longer but the pain is still there. I take methadone for my back and maybe that would help you. I dont take much but try to keep it on a consistance basis. I tried the bending the knee thing and it didnt really hurt my game i just didnt like. I also work with my stroketrainer as much as i can and it really helps to keep my stroke in line. I wish you the best and would be more then willing to share some stories some time. I have had to drop out of a lot of tournaments to and it really sucks. Best of luck!!
 
You haven't mentioned anything about your exercise regimen. I'd like to suggest that you speak to your doctor about which stretching and conditioning exercises might work best for you. If you're overweight, losing some weight would put less strain on your back too.

Another suggestion might be to use the bridge more often so you're not stretching so much.
 
I've had back pain w/pain running down the leg since 1964 but not as bad as yours and no surgeries etc.

I bend at the knees as a matter of necessity and have adapted my game accordingly. You'll adapt also and you'll soon be able to play just as well as with the locked knee stance. No reason to think otherwise and you'll be able to stay for the last rack!
 
CaptainJR...Just so you know, it makes ZERO difference how high or low your body is, in relation to the table. The important thing is that the cuestick is as level as reasonable when shooting. Many players of old stood nearly straight up as they played (unless they were stretched out over the table), in many cases because they were too big/heavy to bend over much. Others just chose the higher stance. The most important thing is to understand that it doesn't matter...as long as you can 'free-swing' the cue, and it's level when you strike the CB. Remember...followthrough is the RESULT of a good finish, not the cause! K.I.S.S. rules...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Everyone is different and I haven't had back surgery (fortunately!), but what finally allowed me to manage my pain after too many unsuccessful trips to various doctors is learning the McKenzie exercises from 7 Steps to a Pain-Free Life: How to Rapidly Relieve Back and Neck Pain. Carefully following the instructions in that book allows me to live a mostly pain-free life these days, and I only wish I had found it sooner!

As far as pool/billiards goes, I don't get quite as far down in my stance (a couple inches can make a big difference in comfort!), and I periodically do Exercise #4 "Extension in Standing" throughout a match to counter the effects on my discs due to the shooting position. It's especially important for me to do this during tournaments, as they tend to be all-day multi-day events (especially 3-cushion).
 
Hey Cap;

Seems like many of us old farts are in the same boat. For me there is not much that really helps except adapting my play. By that I mean racking the balls as infrequently as possible, as this is the hardest on my back. A short break, 2-5 minutes every 3 or 4 racks makes a world of difference. One thing about your stance, I find that if I move my back foot a little farther back, I can get down on the ball a little easier without bending as much. Of course, if there's a cute little hottie around to give a back rub, you can play for hours.:D
 
i have had 2 major back operations in the past 8 months and most days I cant play, dosent matter how I try and change my body position. I cant make a ball when I take muscle relaxors or pain meds. On good days I play much as possible, i need one more operation, BTW i just turned 40 and spent 14 years in the gym to keep my back healthy but the deggeneritive condition i have caught up with me, so i spend 20 hours a day laying flat, sitting standing etc hurts. i dont know what to do either.
 
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