Bad rolls - what's your definition?

[Brian in VA]

One of the players on my 8 Ball team (BCA league) and I were talking about bad rolls last night. His contention is that he gets more than his share of bad rolls and it's very frustrating to him.

I started thinking about this and wondered what constitutes a bad roll?

For example, I can understand that equipment can cause a bad roll; I've had a ball that I slow rolled, roll off line. I can understand that random occurrences can cause bad rolls; I break and squat the rock in the middle of the table and a ball kisses it into a pocket for a scratch. Those are both bad rolls and we all get our share of them.

My teammate's contention is that sending a ball 3 rails for position and having it end up behind his opponent's only ball is a bad roll. Or that having a ball roll too far and scratching is a bad roll.

I contend that those are bad shots, that you're supposed to keep control of as many of those things as you can; that's the art and science of this game, minimizing your mistakes or chances for mistakes at all times. Perhaps if he gets more than his share, or perceives that he gets more than his share, he's taking the wrong pattern for his runout and not controlling the opportunities for error as a result.

I'm not looking to decide who's right and who's wrong on this, by the way. We all have different ways of looking at a rack and running it differently based on what kinds of shots we prefer.

I'd like to know how everyone else characterizes a bad roll. And are there good rolls, too? And what constitutes those?

Brian in VA - believes he gets his share of both and is okay with that.

 

[Eric.]

Bad rolls? I can usually tell if they are fresh or not....

I think your friend needs to learn better position routes. I'm guessing that the routes he takes leaves a potential for trouble, unless he hits it perfect. Like life, sometimes you create your own luck, both good and bad.


Eric

 

[Scott Lee]

Brian...I'd agree with Eric. But I'd temper that with my belief that your teammate does not have an accurate and repeatable stroke (which also includes good command of speed control). The best players make their own "good rolls"! Bad rolls happen occasionally to everyone...but not that often to better players with a good process! :grin: Glad to hear you're back from those other rolls (due to C.C. closing!). Hope to see you again next time I'm down in Richmond!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

For example, I can understand that equipment can cause a bad roll; I've had a ball that I slow rolled, roll off line. I can understand that random occurrences can cause bad rolls; I break and squat the rock in the middle of the table and a ball kisses it into a pocket for a scratch. Those are both bad rolls and we all get our share of them.

My teammate's contention is that sending a ball 3 rails for position and having it end up behind his opponent's only ball is a bad roll. Or that having a ball roll too far and scratching is a bad roll.

I contend that those are bad shots, that you're supposed to keep control of as many of those things as you can; that's the art and science of this game, minimizing your mistakes or chances for mistakes at all times. Perhaps if he gets more than his share, or perceives that he gets more than his share, he's taking the wrong pattern for his runout and not controlling the opportunities for error as a result.


I'd like to know how everyone else characterizes a bad roll. And are there good rolls, too? And what constitutes those?

I classify rolls the same way you do. As for the good rolls, I count them as being bad shots that ended up leaving me with a shot when I shouldn't have been able to see the ball.

 

[sfleinen]

My definition of bad rolls is easy -- they make a loud thunking noise when you tap them on the table. When rolls get like that, they're stale and you should not buy them (or, throw them away if you already have them). Senior citizens like to feed them to the pigeons, so if you have any bad rolls, you might want to do the same. "Bad rolls are for the birds!"

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

-Sean

P.S.: After posting, I realized that Eric already "hinted" on the bread theme. Doh!

Brian...I'd agree with Eric. But I'd temper that with my belief that your teammate does not have an accurate and repeatable stroke (which also includes good command of speed control). The best players make their own "good rolls"! Bad rolls happen occasionally to everyone...but not that often to better players with a good process! :grin: Glad to hear you're back from those other rolls (due to C.C. closing!). Hope to see you again next time I'm down in Richmond!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[easy-e]

You are right IMO. If you make the "bad roll" yourself, it ceases to be a bad roll. I often find myself arguing with people about something similar:

Suppose I am running out, miss a 7 ball that I should NEVER miss, and you come to the table finding yourself hooked by the 8 ball. Did you get a bad roll? I am a believer that if I ever get to the table when I believed the game to be over already, I got a GOOD ROLL whether I am hooked or not.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

I pretty much agree with your definition, and will add that the opponent can leave you with a 'bad roll' just as easily as you can miss and leave your opponent a dead combo. His good luck roll and your bad roll is his good luck.

If you are dwelling on the negative, you cannot expect to appreciate all that you are doing positive.

One of the most difficult words for the aspiring pool player to learn when they compete is 'ACCEPT'. No matter what happens on the table, if you are emotionally tied up, in your head, about the 'bad roll' you cannot focus on the present and perform up to your potential.

 

[pooltchr]

Everything that happens on the pool table is a direct result of what the shooter did with his stick.

Bad rolls are excuses that allow players to become victims.

As someone pointed out, my opponent may get lucky with a leave, but if I am at the table, whether or not I get out of it is a result of my own decisions and actions.

My cue never missed a shot. My table never missed a shot. I, however, have been known to miss a shot!

Steve

 

[jay helfert]

This is easy - The good players get the good rolls and the bad players get the bad rolls.
And this is not all meant in jest either. There's a reason why it works that way. But that is another discussion entirely.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Bad Rolls

When you are playing you don't give yourself a bad roll. Its lack of cue ball control that causes you to end up where you don't want to be and THAT'S YOUR OWN DAM FAULT!

The only time you can get a bad roll is when your opponent gives you one (misses and accidently hooks you, misses and accidently leaves you tough, misses and accidently ties up some balls, etc.).

 

[jay helfert]

Everything that happens on the pool table is a direct result of what the shooter did with his stick.

Bad rolls are excuses that allow players to become victims.

As someone pointed out, my opponent may get lucky with a leave, but if I am at the table, whether or not I get out of it is a result of my own decisions and actions.

My cue never missed a shot. My table never missed a shot. I, however, have been known to miss a shot!

Steve

This is good too! Thanks Steve. I like to say that the balls are inanimate objects, they have no mind of their own. They only go where you direct them.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I've always considered the "roll" part of a shot to be any part of the shot that the shooter doesn't control. Therefore the better you are, the fewer "rolls" you get, good or bad.

Of course, bad equipment does cause good and bad rolls, as well as unpredictable occurrences such as kisses on the break.

But here's another way of thinking of it: say you give Efren Reyes a difficult shot and a positional target (pinpoint). Then you have him shoot it 20 times. He's Efren Reyes, so he gets close every time, but each time he misses by some small amount, say between 0 and 6 inches. That means there's a 12" diameter circle on the table, and he knows he's going to get the ball inside that circle, but he does not control what part of the circle he's going to land in, even though he's Efren Reyes. So on a shot where he has to hit a certain part of that circle, and he hits a different part instead, a part that leaves him hooked, I'd say he caught a bad roll. A part of the shot that was not within his control went wrong.

Of course, when he lands directly on the pin-point, and has a perfect shot, we call him great, even though he can only reproduce that result a few times out of the 20 tries. I'd say it's actually nothing more than a good roll, unless he can reproduce it most of the time. If he can't do it most of the time, then he has no way of knowing that this time will be one of the successes and not one of the failures, and if it's one of the successes then I would contend he got lucky, even though it's exactly what he was trying to do.

-Andrew

 

[easy-e]

When you are playing you don't give yourself a bad roll. Its lack of cue ball control that causes you to end up where you don't want to be and THAT'S YOUR OWN DAM FAULT!

The only time you can get a bad roll is when your opponent gives you one (misses and accidently hooks you, misses and accidently leaves you tough, misses and accidently ties up some balls, etc.).

I think that depends on the circumstances. If a great player misses, and gives you a chance you should never have, I don't care if you are hooked or not, you got a good roll just getting back to the table.

 

[paksat]

I classify rolls the same way you do. As for the good rolls, I count them as being bad shots that ended up leaving me with a shot when I shouldn't have been able to see the ball.

This and this man deserves reps..

we sure keep track of the bad rolls but are soon to forget any good rolls we get. Hell we even write them off as "i'm just that good damnit"... lol

It's an equilibrium like most of life is anyway. No reason to get mad because they happen. Sometimes they happen at undesirable times. Just remember how many times you've gotten good rolls that you attributed to your skill when it was really nothing but luck...

 

[dr2112]

we sure keep track of the bad rolls but are soon to forget any good rolls we get. Hell we even write them off as "i'm just that good damnit"... lol

It's an equilibrium like most of life is anyway. No reason to get mad because they happen. Sometimes they happen at undesirable times. Just remember how many times you've gotten good rolls that you attributed to your skill when it was really nothing but luck...

very well said, but it is amazing how it seems you get the good rolls when you are playing good and the bad one when you are playing well. I also agree most bad rolls are your own fault but not ALL.

 

[beetle]

This and this man deserves reps..

we sure keep track of the bad rolls but are soon to forget any good rolls we get. Hell we even write them off as "i'm just that good damnit"... lol

It's an equilibrium like most of life is anyway. No reason to get mad because they happen. Sometimes they happen at undesirable times. Just remember how many times you've gotten good rolls that you attributed to your skill when it was really nothing but luck...

Just like poker--you only remember the bad beats.

 

[Island Drive]

A bad roll is something you feel shouldn't of happened but did. In the real world, what comes around goes around, thats why pros would rather play a format that in the long run allows the better player to win because they would rather loose a match for another reason than a lucky roll. The closer the score the more the bad rolls are accentuated.

 

[trustyrusty]

A bad roll is something you tell your opponent he got a couple of in your match. That, and I got some really good rolls, I shouldn't have won, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Railbird]

This is easy - The good players get the good rolls and the bad players get the bad rolls.
And this is not all meant in jest either. There's a reason why it works that way. But that is another discussion entirely.

Ah, way to smart you are Jay. It's true though, just sit any watch any tournamnet -- match after match you'll see the guy that's playing better that day seem to get the rolls in his favor and vice versa, you have to make your own luck or you're going to perceive getting bad rolls.

 

[easy-e]

"A real man makes his own luck."
-Billy Zane, Titanic