bad stroke with hard draw
- Thread starter zach12345
- Start date
Most likely your elbow is moving off line and creates all kinds of problems.
Best,
Mike
any suggestions on how to stop that?
Sounds like you are tensing up for the hard draw shot. Tense muscles are weak muscles.
Just put a little more snap in your wrist going forward.And don't tense up.Stay loose.
Just put a little more snap in your wrist going forward.And don't tense up.Stay loose.
Have you looked at your stroke finish? A mirror or video will show you what's happening. Those clues tell the story.
I sometimes try to get too much stroke into my shots and get my shoulder moving. I slightly lunge forward and my elbow follows my shoulder forward, out and around. To compensate, I twist my wrist in under my chest causing right spin on the cue ball.
When this happens, I freeze and look at my finished position. Not a pretty sight! :smile:
I actually get more draw by relaxing and trying to just stroke through the ball.
Tightness in your arm and/or grip may contribute to your problem. After all, you hit the balls good with a medium stroke, right? Do you tighten up to get more power? I do. Try half the power and see what happens. You can always hit it harder!
Best,
Mike
No need for a hard draw stroke unless you are trying to draw the cueball on a long draw shot.
Sounds like you might need to lower your bridge, and move your bridge hand back a couple inches from where you usually bridge from.
Use a proper bridge to draw a ball. Not just hitting the cueball low, but lower your bridge hand.
This should make it all easier. Now practice. Don't muscle it...use finesse.:smile:
yeah thats why i was doing it today. had a long, straight in shot in the top right pocket and trying to draw back a bit for shot in the bottom left. and yeah i think youre right. i probably do need to move my bridge back some when i draw. thanks for the advice everyone
One think I see from a lot of players when they have to shoot hard ,for what ever reason, is they don't keep their head still, or stay down. Except for the break, you should always use the same stroke and mindset for every shot. It reminds me of golf with some people and how their swing changes, when you compare their swing with a 9 iron and a 4 iron. On a long straight in draw shot, stay down and follow through or you will miss-hit the cue ball, which is what you are doing if it has side spin on it. Hope this helps.
Draw is a fickle mistress,
As mentioned, keep your bridge low, More importantly ..keep you cue level. Don't dig into the bottom of the cue from the top...hit it below center.
As far as "hard", you are thinking about it the wrong way. Hit it fast is a better way to say it. Move the cue stick fast through the ball. Fast,honest and level.
And follow through. Chase that ball for a foot or more with your tip.
Keep the grip hand loose and send it.
Grip it hard and everything from elbows to shoulders to ass cheeks come into play.
As mentioned, keep your bridge low, More importantly ..keep you cue level. Don't dig into the bottom of the cue from the top...hit it below center.
As far as "hard", you are thinking about it the wrong way. Hit it fast is a better way to say it. Move the cue stick fast through the ball. Fast,honest and level.
And follow through. Chase that ball for a foot or more with your tip.
Keep the grip hand loose and send it.
Grip it hard and everything from elbows to shoulders to ass cheeks come into play.
Might be too drastic of a change for you but I fixed that same problem in my stroke when I adopted a 4 pt contact with the cue, as seen in my sig below. That is bridge, chin, chest, grip. Albeit I do not seem to maintain a perfect 4 pt contact throughout the swing (my cue arcs down and away from my chin) initially setting myself up this way seems to have eliminated the unnecessary english to a high degree.
Thunderball has got it. Hitting hard will actually reduce the amount of draw and greatly reduce accuracy. For maximum draw you want to shoot faster, not harder, with a smooth stroke. If you time your stroke right, the cue ball will draw back almost effortlessly, even over long distances.
Check this post:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=335841
If you have loose grip, you are not pulling cue far enough to generate the power needed utilizing cue weight/speed for the shot, you end up forcing it by hard gripping cue and tucking it inward, just like Ronnie did in link attached. If you cannot fix it this way, intend to put a TOI or TOO opposite english and that will cancel the unintentional english.
This is the main advantage of hard gripping the butt, it minimize/eliminates this issue, but your CB speed becomes erratic due to muscles controlling, and not the cue speed and weight.
Best of luck.
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I was always in the hold the cue loosely camp but I'm not so sure that's the correct answer anymore.
For a little insight into what happens when you tighten your grip during the stroke -- address the cue ball with your tip pointed just a hair away from center ball, now tighten your grip and see what happens to your cue. When I do this my cue tip moves a significant amount. I think this is the problem with the loose grip when you are cueing with added speed -- you can't help but grab the cue more tightly right before, during, or right after contact. If you don't tighten up your grip your cue will go flying into the wall. So I think what people do is over the years they teach themselves how to perfectly time the snatching of their cue on these types of shots. I think this is the origin of what many refer to as "snapping your wrist".
What I've messed around with is actually tightening up my grip on these shots. What you can even start with is trying to shoot a few shots with a death grip and then move backwards - towards a lighter grip from there, this is instead of doing the opposite and more traditional thing of starting with a very loose grip and moving toward a slightly tighter one.
I still like the feel of the light grip for those slow and medium shots but I'm finding myself moving more toward a firmer grip on those shots that require significant speed. I've had better luck keeping my cue in a straight line this way.
May not be for everyone.
For a little insight into what happens when you tighten your grip during the stroke -- address the cue ball with your tip pointed just a hair away from center ball, now tighten your grip and see what happens to your cue. When I do this my cue tip moves a significant amount. I think this is the problem with the loose grip when you are cueing with added speed -- you can't help but grab the cue more tightly right before, during, or right after contact. If you don't tighten up your grip your cue will go flying into the wall. So I think what people do is over the years they teach themselves how to perfectly time the snatching of their cue on these types of shots. I think this is the origin of what many refer to as "snapping your wrist".
What I've messed around with is actually tightening up my grip on these shots. What you can even start with is trying to shoot a few shots with a death grip and then move backwards - towards a lighter grip from there, this is instead of doing the opposite and more traditional thing of starting with a very loose grip and moving toward a slightly tighter one.
I still like the feel of the light grip for those slow and medium shots but I'm finding myself moving more toward a firmer grip on those shots that require significant speed. I've had better luck keeping my cue in a straight line this way.
May not be for everyone.
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Do you have a friend available who can put his/her hand on top of your elbow when you go down into your stance and stroke through? Maybe that could make you aware of not dropping your elbow until you strike through the cue ball.
I glanced over the other responses but didn't find anything like my response, but apologies if I'm repeating here. Also, below are a lot of notes on draw, but I think #4 is what mostly addresses your concern about not coming off straight on your draw... But all of the steps below matter for a good draw shot.
1) Line-up, get near parallel with the table but not perfectly so. Watch a pro-level player draw, they mostly aim slightly downward, just a few degrees... It's really worth watching how they do it. Plus it's hard to get flat anyway because often your stick is half over a rail, which causes some elevation. Too much angle though and you're pushing the ball into the cloth which kills the draw and your shot.
Keep in mind most players don't know what angle they are at and think they are flat when they are at a bad hard angle. So if you can, video your shot or have somebody watch you shoot and tell you how are you are doing. It will take practice to get a sense of proper angle to the table.
2) Don't use a death grip or even a solid grip. Try a loser grip, and some players will grip with their fingers, rather than their hand. When they stroke they let their fingers control the cue, and even let their wrist sort of flick in the last bit of stroke. Finding what works and getting a good feel for it will take practice, but definitely avoid the death grip or even medium grip.
3) Old timers would likely tell you to bridge a little closer than normal to the cue ball when you stroke. This will keep the tip on a low path in case you drop your elbow. When you drop your elbow, the cue tip elevates as it moves forward killing the bottom English (draw). So bridge closer, or don't drop your elbow.
4) Stroke is everything, and I think this is where the big mistake is for most people. Most players stroke trying to push through the ball as far as they can as hard as they can, but that leads to over-stroking which is likely going to be crooked, and the hard hit will not impart as much spin as expected or wanted.
Instead of focusing on the forward motion of the stroke, give as much attention on the backward swing... It should be bigger on the back-swing than normal, and that will improve your stroke speed and follow-though on the front swing automatically. This is what gets you a good draw without hitting hard, that good stroke. When you have a good backward motion, you will find that your natural forward stroke will take care of itself (the tip will land maybe like 3 to 5 inches in front of where the cue ball was sitting.
I described separate pieces here that each need to be considered and practiced, but you use them together as a uniform movement to make a good draw stroke.
I'm sure other will have advise that is different, or even contradictory, if that works great. I collected advise from some very well known sources, so it's not mine but rather pro advice. Also, advice is easy; you need to drill this stuff and practice it til you perfect it.
Good luck.
1) Line-up, get near parallel with the table but not perfectly so. Watch a pro-level player draw, they mostly aim slightly downward, just a few degrees... It's really worth watching how they do it. Plus it's hard to get flat anyway because often your stick is half over a rail, which causes some elevation. Too much angle though and you're pushing the ball into the cloth which kills the draw and your shot.
Keep in mind most players don't know what angle they are at and think they are flat when they are at a bad hard angle. So if you can, video your shot or have somebody watch you shoot and tell you how are you are doing. It will take practice to get a sense of proper angle to the table.
2) Don't use a death grip or even a solid grip. Try a loser grip, and some players will grip with their fingers, rather than their hand. When they stroke they let their fingers control the cue, and even let their wrist sort of flick in the last bit of stroke. Finding what works and getting a good feel for it will take practice, but definitely avoid the death grip or even medium grip.
3) Old timers would likely tell you to bridge a little closer than normal to the cue ball when you stroke. This will keep the tip on a low path in case you drop your elbow. When you drop your elbow, the cue tip elevates as it moves forward killing the bottom English (draw). So bridge closer, or don't drop your elbow.
4) Stroke is everything, and I think this is where the big mistake is for most people. Most players stroke trying to push through the ball as far as they can as hard as they can, but that leads to over-stroking which is likely going to be crooked, and the hard hit will not impart as much spin as expected or wanted.
Instead of focusing on the forward motion of the stroke, give as much attention on the backward swing... It should be bigger on the back-swing than normal, and that will improve your stroke speed and follow-though on the front swing automatically. This is what gets you a good draw without hitting hard, that good stroke. When you have a good backward motion, you will find that your natural forward stroke will take care of itself (the tip will land maybe like 3 to 5 inches in front of where the cue ball was sitting.
I described separate pieces here that each need to be considered and practiced, but you use them together as a uniform movement to make a good draw stroke.
I'm sure other will have advise that is different, or even contradictory, if that works great. I collected advise from some very well known sources, so it's not mine but rather pro advice. Also, advice is easy; you need to drill this stuff and practice it til you perfect it.
Good luck.
JC
Coos Cues
I like to place two object balls about 2-3 inches in front of the cue ball with a gap between them about twice as wide as my shaft when I practice draw shots. Stroke the cue ball between the balls and concentrate on following through to the end without disturbing the balls. As you get better you can make the gap smaller between the balls. This is great drill for a lot of shots but particularly helpful on drawing.
JC
JC
I had this problem for years...now I don't. There are two things that will help you keep your stroke straight on firmer shots. Either one works, but I prefer number 2.
1. You can firm up your grip (not a death grip, but not the "baby bird in hand" grip, either). If your problem is tensing up in the middle of a stroke shot ("snatching"), this will help that. Not for everybody, and it can hide a bigger problem, so not necessarily the best solution for everyone.
or
2. Roll your wrist in a tad more. Think of pointing your thumb more toward the floor and your knuckles a little more up. I use the hammer grip, imagining the first joints (closest to your fingertips) and your thumb running along an imaginary straight track or groove. Locking your wrist back and releasing it forward (down) as the cue comes forward. It is an incredibly straight stroke, hard to screw it up. Takes getting used to, but you'll be surprised at the results.
You could have a problem with your stance...if you're off line with your natural point of aim, you're fighting against your body to keep the cue straight. Hold your cue in your stroking hand, letting your arm hang loose. Allow the cue to point naturally like a compass where it wants to. Spread your feet to a comfortable distance apart for your normal stance. Then shift your feet until the cue is on line with a shot. This will remove all lateral tension in your arm that you're fighting against when you stroke, which could be pulling your stroke one way or the other. Pay attention to your foot placement and consider pointing your lead foot parallel to the stick line (it will help force you to stay consistent in your stance).
1. You can firm up your grip (not a death grip, but not the "baby bird in hand" grip, either). If your problem is tensing up in the middle of a stroke shot ("snatching"), this will help that. Not for everybody, and it can hide a bigger problem, so not necessarily the best solution for everyone.
or
2. Roll your wrist in a tad more. Think of pointing your thumb more toward the floor and your knuckles a little more up. I use the hammer grip, imagining the first joints (closest to your fingertips) and your thumb running along an imaginary straight track or groove. Locking your wrist back and releasing it forward (down) as the cue comes forward. It is an incredibly straight stroke, hard to screw it up. Takes getting used to, but you'll be surprised at the results.
You could have a problem with your stance...if you're off line with your natural point of aim, you're fighting against your body to keep the cue straight. Hold your cue in your stroking hand, letting your arm hang loose. Allow the cue to point naturally like a compass where it wants to. Spread your feet to a comfortable distance apart for your normal stance. Then shift your feet until the cue is on line with a shot. This will remove all lateral tension in your arm that you're fighting against when you stroke, which could be pulling your stroke one way or the other. Pay attention to your foot placement and consider pointing your lead foot parallel to the stick line (it will help force you to stay consistent in your stance).
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On all hard swings (draw, follow, etc.) your stroke flaws show up worse.
The spin is probably there on regular shots too but it's so small you don't see it.
I recently was taught a great drill for spotting these flaws:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4358055&postcount=2
You might look at the entire thread to see if you have the same flaw.
My issue was, I'm lefty and kept putting right spin on the ball, or else deflecting a little to the right.
The fix for me is, I cock my left wrist inward a bit. Just a little, nothing drastic.
This brings the butt of the cue in and makes the tip point out a bit.
Then, while the wrist is cocked, I just line up again until it looks like I'm about to shoot straight,
and I swing normally. It definitely feels a little weird. I don't expect it to work.
But it does. I do the drill above with much higher success, and I send the cue ball straighter
on my break shots too. So I live with the weird feeling and use it.
Hope you find some similar fix.
The spin is probably there on regular shots too but it's so small you don't see it.
I recently was taught a great drill for spotting these flaws:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4358055&postcount=2
You might look at the entire thread to see if you have the same flaw.
My issue was, I'm lefty and kept putting right spin on the ball, or else deflecting a little to the right.
The fix for me is, I cock my left wrist inward a bit. Just a little, nothing drastic.
This brings the butt of the cue in and makes the tip point out a bit.
Then, while the wrist is cocked, I just line up again until it looks like I'm about to shoot straight,
and I swing normally. It definitely feels a little weird. I don't expect it to work.
But it does. I do the drill above with much higher success, and I send the cue ball straighter
on my break shots too. So I live with the weird feeling and use it.
Hope you find some similar fix.
I've often seen people refer to "faster" not "harder".
Can anyone tell me the difference between "faster" and "harder"? I assume we're talking about the stroke speed, if not please advise.
Are we talking about apples and oranges when we say "faster not harder"?
I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about these two words. I know Tramp will be coming in with some doozies but I'm looking for a little more serious responses.
Thanks,
JoeyA