Bad Tournaments, Tournament Directors and Promoters

[Fast Lenny]

I have been hearing about a $2000 entry one pocket tournament that was supposed to be happening soon but it is now canceled. I guess some players backed out of it but some guys like Frost, Appleton and others booked hotels and flights and are screwed. I really do not know how this happens other then someone inexperienced handling the event.

You either secure the entries before people book stuff or atleast 25% of the entry fee that is nonrefundable and added to the prize pool. If you cancel your event then you should pay those players who have paid for rooms and airfare that can not be refunded to them. I know Bonus Ball made many mistakes and things I did not agree with but if a player booked a flight and things happened they got reimbursed for it.

I have no problem with promoters, rooms, leagues, TDs and others in the billiard industry making money but be upfront with people about what is being taken out especially if they ask. I also see no reason for a TD to make the same amount of money hanging out as the guy who gets second or third place in an event either. I have heard of tournament directors taking 10-30% out of calcuttas along with pieces of every entry. On the flyer they should state what fees are coming out in black and white IMO.

 

[bfdlad]

I have been hearing about a $2000 entry one pocket tournament that was supposed to be happening soon but it is now canceled. I guess some players backed out of it but some guys like Frost, Appleton and others booked hotels and flights and are screwed. I really do not know how this happens other then someone inexperienced handling the event.

You either secure the entries before people book stuff or atleast 25% of the entry fee that is nonrefundable and added to the prize pool. If you cancel your event then you should pay those players who have paid for rooms and airfare that can not be refunded to them. I know Bonus Ball made many mistakes and things I did not agree with but if a player booked a flight and things happened they got reimbursed for it.

I have no problem with promoters, rooms, leagues, TDs and others in the billiard industry making money but be upfront with people about what is being taken out especially if they ask. I also see no reason for a TD to make the same amount of money hanging out as the guy who gets second or third place in an event either. I have heard of tournament directors taking 10-30% out of calcuttas along with pieces of every entry. On the flyer they should state what fees are coming out in black and white IMO.

Lenny, unfortunately this kind of thing keeps happening. I have done a few events in my time and I know way ahead of time if it is or is not going to happen. I would not dream of putting the players in that position for a last minute cancel and leave them hanging unless it was out of my control. My problem with this is this. Last year it happened twice with WPA sanctioned events two got cancelled last minute if I remember right and Shane didn't even know about it until he was in Hong Kong or something on his way to an INTERNATIONAL event. So not discounting Scott's loss in anyway but the other events were more out of pocket $$ to find out it was not happening. So I guess my real point is this. How can we hold a regional promoter to a standard that the WPA does not follow?? When the WPA events were cancelled I did not see them rushing to compensate players for their expenses so why on earth would a small regional promoter feel he needs to compensate players?
Now I am in NO WAY saying that its right I guess I am just showing how F'ed up things are. I really feel bad for Scott and Daz as they are now both out the expense $$.

 

[Roger Long]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, Lenny. Are you saying that a promoter should take a 25% non-refundable deposit, and then use that money to reimburse confirmed players who have booked hotels and airfare, in the event that the promoter cancels the tournament?

Roger

 

[Fast Lenny]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, Lenny. Are you saying that a promoter should take a 25% non-refundable deposit, and then use that money to reimburse confirmed players who have booked hotels and airfare, in the event that the promoter cancels the tournament?

Roger

Not exactly but for events with a high entry they should get 25% non refundable so if these guys back out the money goes into the prize pool for those that show and if only one guy shows up hand him the cash and if only a few come then add it to the prize pool and do a round robin. If people pay 25% then most likely they will come and not forfeit the money or just have them pay in full. If a person cancels a major event because they screwed up they should be accountable to those who have booked flights and rooms.

 

[bfdlad]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, Lenny. Are you saying that a promoter should take a 25% non-refundable deposit, and then use that money to reimburse confirmed players who have booked hotels and airfare, in the event that the promoter cancels the tournament?

Roger

Hey Roger, I am not sure where Lenny was going with it either HOWEVER! It isn't a bad idea. If a large number of people drop out of whatever reason I think the promoter can then if in a spot talk to the remaining players and say "Hey we can still do the tourney if you want but the payout is going to be XYZ. If the players still want to play for what is on the table then go for it. If they decide it is not worth it anymore due to the lower pot then the promoter should use the non refund $ and take care of the players who were still up for it and can show receipts. JMO.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Hey Roger, I am not sure where Lenny was going with it either HOWEVER! It isn't a bad idea. If a large number of people drop out of whatever reason I think the promoter can then if in a spot talk to the remaining players and say "Hey we can still do the tourney if you want but the payout is going to be XYZ. If the players still want to play for what is on the table then go for it. If they decide it is not worth it anymore due to the lower pot then the promoter should use the non refund $ and take care of the players who were still up for it and can show receipts. JMO.

That works perfectly IMO. All the deposits from the no shows go into the prize pool and is added money. If 16 guys say they are going to play there should be $8000 in deposits at $500 a pop and if 6 guys show for a $2000 buy in then the prize pool totals $17000 for a 6 man event and the 10 guys who did not show essentially have added $5000 to it.

 

[Black-Balled]

Shame, it was really sounding like a huge event, no filler in that field.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... events with a high entry ...

Events with a high entry are just organized gambling. The players ought to gamble if that's what they want. That avoids the promoter filing 1099s (or incurring the tax liability himself).

 

[Fast Lenny]

Events with a high entry are just organized gambling. The players ought to gamble if that's what they want. That avoids the promoter filing 1099s (or incurring the tax liability himself).

Essentially any tournament is gambling with odds on the money. I really like the Accu-Stats Make it Happen events because the players get paid and there is no entry. It seems to be working for them and I hope they go on forever.

 

[JB Cases]

Is there some reason for throwing Mike Janis under the bus on here when he isn't here to defend himself? Especially when he has nothing to do with the tournament that just canceled.

I think it's really tacky to post that image. Mike has done more to keep pool alive through the 2000s than all but a few people. I would bet my life that he has detailed records and numbers for just about every tournament he has run.

 

[PETROBOY]

When was the tournament scheduled for? When was it cancelled? Where was it going to be at?

 

[Fast Lenny]

Is there some reason for throwing Mike Janis under the bus on here when he isn't here to defend himself? Especially when he has nothing to do with the tournament that just canceled.

I think it's really tacky to post that image. Mike has done more to keep pool alive through the 2000s than all but a few people. I would bet my life that he has detailed records and numbers for just about every tournament he has run.

Throwing him under the bus?, give me a break! I am showing an example on how some promoters and TDs have calcuttas and take money out of them along with money they make off entries and tour cards and whatever other deals. I am fine with all of that but just make sure everyone knows what is being taken out of it before they put anything in. I go play a poker tournament and its $250 to enter and say a $50 reg or admin fee and I am fine with it because it is there in black and white without deception.

 

[PETROBOY]

Throwing him under the bus?, give me a break! I am showing an example on how some promoters and TDs have calcuttas and take money out of them along with money they make off entries and tour cards and whatever other deals. I am fine with all of that but just make sure everyone knows what is being taken out of it before they put anything in. I go play a poker tournament and its $250 to enter and say a $50 reg or admin fee and I am fine with it because it is there in black and white without deception.

How do you know people didnt know? You asked him how much he takes and he answered. Because some people didnt know or mistaken doesnt mean he didnt make it known how much he was taking out. This looks more like an attack then anything else. Some people dont look at every detail when it comes to tournaments.

 

[JB Cases]

Throwing him under the bus?, give me a break! I am showing an example on how some promoters and TDs have calcuttas and take money out of them along with money they make off entries and tour cards and whatever other deals. I am fine with all of that but just make sure everyone knows what is being taken out of it before they put anything in. I go play a poker tournament and its $250 to enter and say a $50 reg or admin fee and I am fine with it because it is there in black and white without deception.

You're showing an example of a conversation in which Mike says he took out 10% and someone else claims that someone else says differently.

The implication being that Mike is one of the "bad" TDs you are ranting about.

I do wonder though WHY this ought to be transparent? I mean anyone with a calculator can easily figure out the payouts vs. entry fees. If you think a person is making too money for their work then don't patronize their events.

Is there some sort of scale that determines what amount of earnings or profit a person is allowed to make? Should we be asking all the cue makers and billiard industry people to open their books and show us the cost of making their goods so we can determine if they are making too much off the consumers?

I mean I agree that there are some promoters who are probably not that great but most of the ones I have met in this business are not getting rich off it and the amount of work they put in doesn't equate to much more than minimum wage at best.

 

[jgdwvu11]

Well I just saw this and I am the Pool hall owner that indeed had this $1500 not $2000 entry event scheduled...KINDA....the issue was a new tour was starting up called the eastern ohio tour etc....I was to be the 2nd or 3rd stop...that director had a huge falling out with players and that was his text that threw Mike Janis under the bus etc...I eliminated him from the event at my location because I run many successful tournaments yearly and I do believe I pay out more money than any tournament in the country. I also run the regional bcapl championships where I have paid out over $40K and $44k the last 2 years.

I tried to save this event for the ONE pocket and had 15 spots filled until the original tour director was removed...I contacted everyone involved and we had 12 confirmed with many posting the $500 deposit to secure their spot. Unfortunately TODAY...and this week 7 players backed out for numerous reasons of pure bullshit...so players that paid up front- Cory Deuel, darren appleton, scott frost, shannon murphy, ellis elliot, ike runnels - end up getting the worst of the entire situation...we had many players supposedly playing that either their backer stepped down or decided not to put them in...then we had players decide not to play and play each other instead...regardless it didn't end up happening and it hurts me, the players that paid, the fans that want to come see them and pool in general...this is why Billiards WILL NEVER be a world class sport like it should be...

I will be trying this event again in November at Mountaineer Casino in Chester WV...

Players that were signed up and then either backed out or their backer took them off the list include

Larry Nevel
Dee Atkins
Brian White
Chris Bartrum
Brandon Shuff
Chip Compton
Joey Gray
Adam Smith
Danny Smith
Dennis Orcullo

I tried to fill it with other players but it was too spur of the moment...so we will try again in November..

I just wanted to clear it up so you know the truth...next time the money WILL BE COLLECTED ahead of time and if not then the event will not happen with plenty of time to not hurt any of the players, fans, or myself...thank you for your time.

 

[fast8ballin]

As I understand it the guy that posted that PM was upset because Janis refused to sponsor the events he wanted to run in OH through the Simonis Satellite Tours sponsorship program he set up. He asked for the nod and didn't get it. Then got irate and started slandering Janis and his events. Janis told me he had to block the guy from even calling his 800# because of his harassment's due to not sponsoring him. Looks like Janis made the right decision just as he did when he didn't put trust in you years ago with your McCready quote shirt selling scheme Lenny.
But it looks like Janis was asked and answered which is the exact same answer people get when they ask him at his events. And I have seen this in person. Except Janis is very specific in calling what he does a player auction. And per his definition it is a "separate player entry fee based upon their abilities as determined by their peers". Players can choose not to participate but if hey do the fee is 10%. That's more than fair IMO and Janis discloses this prior to all auctions at his events as he gives each and every player the choice to participate or not.

I have been hearing about a $2000 entry one pocket tournament that was supposed to be happening soon but it is now canceled. I guess some players backed out of it but some guys like Frost, Appleton and others booked hotels and flights and are screwed. I really do not know how this happens other then someone inexperienced handling the event.

You either secure the entries before people book stuff or atleast 25% of the entry fee that is nonrefundable and added to the prize pool. If you cancel your event then you should pay those players who have paid for rooms and airfare that can not be refunded to them. I know Bonus Ball made many mistakes and things I did not agree with but if a player booked a flight and things happened they got reimbursed for it.

I have no problem with promoters, rooms, leagues, TDs and others in the billiard industry making money but be upfront with people about what is being taken out especially if they ask. I also see no reason for a TD to make the same amount of money hanging out as the guy who gets second or third place in an event either. I have heard of tournament directors taking 10-30% out of calcuttas along with pieces of every entry. On the flyer they should state what fees are coming out in black and white IMO.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Deleted, somewhat irrelevant to topic

 

[Fast Lenny]

How do you know people didnt know? You asked him how much he takes and he answered. Because some people didnt know or mistaken doesnt mean he didnt make it known how much he was taking out. This looks more like an attack then anything else. Some people dont look at every detail when it comes to tournaments.

I never see it on majority if any flyers for pool events and I cannot even imagine these guys letting everyone know before they start they are taking these amounts out and if they do then kudos to them but it should be listed before anyone puts money in or chooses to attend is my standpoint on it.

 

[robsnotes4u]

Money out of Calcutta

I have been hearing about a $2000 entry one pocket tournament that was supposed to be happening soon but it is now canceled. I guess some players backed out of it but some guys like Frost, Appleton and others booked hotels and flights and are screwed. I really do not know how this happens other then someone inexperienced handling the event.

You either secure the entries before people book stuff or atleast 25% of the entry fee that is nonrefundable and added to the prize pool. If you cancel your event then you should pay those players who have paid for rooms and airfare that can not be refunded to them. I know Bonus Ball made many mistakes and things I did not agree with but if a player booked a flight and things happened they got reimbursed for it.

I have no problem with promoters, rooms, leagues, TDs and others in the billiard industry making money but be upfront with people about what is being taken out especially if they ask. I also see no reason for a TD to make the same amount of money hanging out as the guy who gets second or third place in an event either. I have heard of tournament directors taking 10-30% out of calcuttas along with pieces of every entry. On the flyer they should state what fees are coming out in black and white IMO.

In some states you have to a charitable gaming license to do a Calcutta, when you do this a percentage of the Calcutta has to go to the charitable organization. On top of that you may be responsible for taxes on that money also. So don't complain about things unless you know the laws that are involved.

 

[Fast Lenny]

As I understand it the guy that posted that PM was upset because Janis refused to sponsor the events he wanted to run in OH through the Simonis Satellite Tours sponsorship program he set up. He asked for the nod and didn't get it. Then got irate and started slandering Janis and his events. Janis told me he had to block the guy from even calling his 800# because of his harassment's due to not sponsoring him. Looks like Janis made the right decision just as he did when he didn't put trust in you years ago with your McCready quote shirt selling scheme Lenny.
But it looks like Janis was asked and answered which is the exact same answer people get when they ask him at his events. And I have seen this in person. Except Janis is very specific in calling what he does a player auction. And per his definition it is a "separate player entry fee based upon their abilities as determined by their peers". Players can choose not to participate but if hey do the fee is 10%. That's more than fair IMO and Janis discloses this prior to all auctions at his events as he gives each and every player the choice to participate or not.

Shirt selling scheme? The guy put in a custom order for shirts with me, I think it was like 50 shirts and never sent me a dime nor would respond to me when I told him his order was ready. I put trust in him by not taking a deposit or being paid upfront and got screwed. I have always delivered my product to everyone who has made a purchase with me. There is a reason Mike Janis is removed from this forum.