Balance point

[Texas Carom Club]

Ok. Wherever the thing balances that mass resists motion. If the motion is eccentric to the cue, there will be lateral resistance. Where your hands go relative to this main mass determine the leverage you have against it. For instance if a big weight bolt is right where you grip, it will resist extraneous motion more than if the weight was further away from your hand. Bridge placement is also part of this equation.
So even if you grip the cue at the butt cap, the balance point will affect all non linear motion and will do so in plot-able curves of negative and positive resistance. This may or may not matter to, or bother an individual but the interplay of forces is not constant and is present anytime the cue moves.

You have my word.

so we still talkin about putting balls in the hole with a stick?

 

[straightline]

so we still talkin about putting balls in the hole with a stick?

Just the following:

Your 6'3 and shoot a 16 oz cue, wow, Do you make your own cue ? I see most all the top players with their hand on the very butt of the cue and I wonder what good it does to have a butt balance point... Doesn't the entire cue become balance when holding the cue at the very butt, back... ?

There should be differences throughout the stroke since the location of center mass and therefore inertia can change in 4 dimensions. ( space + velocity)

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Just the following:

so thats a no

 

[straightline]

so thats a no

I suppose that's built in. Just pointing to the source of my radical claims.

 

[bbb]

straightline said:
There should be differences throughout the stroke since the location of center mass and therefore inertia can change in 4 dimensions. ( space + velocity)
.....................................
@straightline
could you explain this alittle more?

 

[rexus31]

19.5"-19.75"

 

[garczar]

Ok. Wherever the thing balances that mass resists motion. If the motion is eccentric to the cue, there will be lateral resistance. Where your hands go relative to this main mass determine the leverage you have against it. For instance if a big weight bolt is right where you grip, it will resist extraneous motion more than if the weight was further away from your hand. Bridge placement is also part of this equation.
So even if you grip the cue at the butt cap, the balance point will affect all non linear motion and will do so in plot-able curves of negative and positive resistance. This may or may not matter to, or bother an individual but the interplay of forces is not constant and is present anytime the cue moves.

You have my word.

You talk like that in real-life or just save it up for us?? WTF??? It either feels right or it doesn't. Lateral what? Plottable who? Seriously?? Been hangin' out with DrDave and Jewett??

 

[straightline]

straightline said:
There should be differences throughout the stroke since the location of center mass and therefore inertia can change in 4 dimensions. ( space + velocity)
.....................................
@straightline
could you explain this alittle more?

I explained it as best I could in other posts but basically your stroke moves in three dimensions and the cue resists all the extraneous motion besides the main vector. So, that quote is in response to Guy Manges wondering if a cue held at the butt end had any balance point at all and/or if it mattered.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

If you grip the very back of the cue for shooting, There is no balance point... What good would it do to have a balance point ? ... Guy

Tape a roll of dimes by the tip and feel the difference.

 

[straightline]

You talk like that in real-life or just save it up for us?? WTF??? It either feels right or it doesn't. Lateral what? Plottable who? Seriously?? Been hangin' out with DrDave and Jewett??

I talk like that when I gotta explain something like that. The science show guys talk math, I talk English. Not real gud a lot but real.

 

[bbb]

I explained it as best I could in other posts but basically your stroke moves in three dimensions and the cue resists all the extraneous motion besides the main vector. So, that quote is in response to Guy Manges wondering if a cue held at the butt end had any balance point at all and/or if it mattered.

thanks for the reply
i wish i had what you did for breakfast.....

 

[jazznpool]

Balance is a personal preference and very difficult for a custom maker to achieve anything exacting at a particular weight. As a long time merchant of custom cues, with a 58" cue the acceptable range is 18" to 20" from the end of the buttcap. I personally prefer a balance point of 18-3/4 to 19-1/4". I will also add that if the cue weight is in the 19.5oz to 19.75 oz range, then my balance preference would extend forward a bit.

In the early 2000's I contacted Pau; Mottey to discuss having him build me a new custom cue. When I began talking about a specific balance point he rightfully told me I should probably go somewhere else! It was only after I had spent a few years working on weekends with a custom cue maker that I could more clearly understand the balance range variables. Lol.

 

[jay helfert]

I have no idea after 60 years playing pool what the ideal measurement is for me. I’ve spent a lifetime adjusting to different cues to make them work for me. I do know that I like a forward weighted cue for the way it goes through the ball.

Billy Stroud used to make these 20 oz. cues that all you had to do was grip it lightly and guide it through the shot. You could let the cue do all the work! Loved those cues! You could basically do the same thing with a good house cue.

Tads and Gina's had that wonderful feel for the ball, but you needed a little stroke to make them work.

Then came Meucci, McDermott, Viking, Joss East and others who mass produced decent playing cues at affordable prices. Each of them had slightly different playing qualities. Schon entered the scene and kicked it up a notch.

Today we have a plethora of good cue makers and a myriad of choices to fit any taste or playing style. How times have changed!

 

[Fatboy]

All great points Jay


Most of the cues built by Stroud, bushka, Gus made heavy thicc ass cues that could really move the CB on slow nap cloth. They are WAY too much cue for todays equipment. There are exceptions of course as they built cues for players specs. Ray Martins Gus is a finesse cue if there ever was one. Feels like a Tad.

I have no idea after 60 years playing pool what the ideal measurement is for me. I’ve spent a lifetime adjusting to different cues to make them work for me. I do know that I like a forward weighted cue for the way it goes through the ball.

Billy Stroud used to make these 20 oz. cues that all you had to do was grip it lightly and guide it through the shot. You could let the cue do all the work! Loved those cues! You could basically do the same thing with a good house cue.

Tads and Gina's had that wonderful feel for the ball, but you needed a little stroke to make them work.

Then came Meucci, McDermott, Viking, Joss East and others who mass produced decent playing cues at affordable prices. Each of them had slightly different playing qualities. Schon entered the scene and kicked it up a notch.

Today we have a plethora of good cue makers and a myriad of choices to fit any taste or playing style. How times have changed!

 

[jay helfert]

Bob Jewett's post 13 seems to be getting little attention and he points out an important fact. While we "call out" the balance point from the butt end, what matters is distance from the tip.

A typical 58" cue will have a balance point at very close to 19". My personal cue, sixteen ounces and sixty inches, has a balance point at 21" measured from the butt. Measured from the tip that puts the balance point just the same as the common 19" from the butt end.

The balance point doesn't matter a lot until one of two things happens. With it too far back the cue can want to float out of your bridge. Having to apply down pressure with your grip to keep a stick from floating out of your bridge is awkward. I suppose it could be gotten used to but why? Weight very forward again feels awkward. The cue also feels heavier than it really is.

Some of the old masters recommended holding the cue at it's balance point, some four to five inches behind the balance point. I forget who said what. For my personal use, I find just enough to keep the stick from feeling like it wants to float out of the bridge is fine. Never measured, I suspect three to five inches behind the balance point might be a good guess.

That extra two inches of length on my cue comes in handy when I am indulging my bad habit of stretching instead of using the mechanical bridge, no real purpose in normal play. I am 6'-2". However, I find moving my hand back on the cue to be a bad habit unless matched by moving my bridge hand back, another bad habit in my opinion.

Hu

I was sitting behind Danny D. and Cornbread at JC decades ago, just kind of eavesdropping on their conversion while watching Lassiter play. Danny said something I never forgot to Red, “Look at how short his bridge is. He’s always close to the ball.”

 

[ShootingArts]

Ok. Wherever the thing balances that mass resists motion. If the motion is eccentric to the cue, there will be lateral resistance. Where your hands go relative to this main mass determine the leverage you have against it. For instance if a big weight bolt is right where you grip, it will resist extraneous motion more than if the weight was further away from your hand. Bridge placement is also part of this equation.
So even if you grip the cue at the butt cap, the balance point will affect all non linear motion and will do so in plot-able curves of negative and positive resistance. This may or may not matter to, or bother an individual but the interplay of forces is not constant and is present anytime the cue moves.

You have my word.

I didn't bother to follow the logic or math. How can we doubt someone with the handle straightline when we are talking about lines?(grin)

Hu

 

[dquarasr]

I'm a banger, so take what I have to say with the proverbial grain of NaCl.

I have two Adam cues. One has a plastic joint, the other metal. The balance point of the plastic joint cue is about 2" closer to the butt cap than that of the metal one (17" vs 19"). These cues weigh basically the same, within 0.2 ounces of each other.

For me, when holding the metal joint cue standing or walking around with it pre-shot, because its balance point is 2" forward, the whole cue "feels" heavier in my hand, putting more downward pressure on my thumb and index finger. Once down on the shot with the cue in my bridge and my back hand at the grip point, I don't really notice a difference.

 

[ShootingArts]

I was sitting behind Danny D. and Cornbread at JC decades ago, just kind of eavesdropping on their conversion while watching Lassiter play. Danny said something I never forgot to Red, “Look at how short his bridge is. He’s always close to the ball.”

The closest thing I had to a mentor was at least in his mid-fifties when he taught me a bit in the early seventies. He was a strong advocate of the closed bridge and keeping the bridging distance very short, under ten inches. I didn't know his speed. He rented Lambert's old poolroom when Lambert opened Greenway. They played for the rent every month and Jessy said he rarely paid any rent!

One thing I put to the test and can say is true about all levels of players up to A-Shortstop level, they don't hit the cue ball nearly as accurately as they think they do with the twelve inch plus open bridges. That is unless they look at the cue ball last. Even bangers hit the cue ball accurately when they looked at their target.

I strongly suspect that almost everyone from B level down could improve their game just by shortening their bridge three or four inches.

Hu

 

[slide13]

Balance is a personal preference and very difficult for a custom maker to achieve anything exacting at a particular weight. As a long time merchant of custom cues, with a 58" cue the acceptable range is 18" to 20" from the end of the buttcap. I personally prefer a balance point of 18-3/4 to 19-1/4". I will also add that if the cue weight is in the 19.5oz to 19.75 oz range, then my balance preference would extend forward a bit.

In the early 2000's I contacted Pau; Mottey to discuss having him build me a new custom cue. When I began talking about a specific balance point he rightfully told me I should probably go somewhere else! It was only after I had spent a few years working on weekends with a custom cue maker that I could more clearly understand the balance range variables. Lol.

Interesting perspective. I agree that seems like a nice and reasonable range. While I don't love balance points in the lower part of the 18-19" range I do think they're acceptable. I've played a few that were in the 17-18" range and one that was even below 17" and I really disliked those.

I've only ever custom ordered 1 cue and I got pretty specific with my request. 19-19.25oz weight, with a butt around 15oz and shafts around 4oz and a 19.25-19.5" balance point. Not sure if I just got lucky or if it was just that it was pretty typical specs for that type of cue but I got exactly what I wanted (butt 15.1oz, shafts each 4.1oz, balance at 19.4").

Later I bought another cue used by the same builder (Bob Runde) and it's not far off from that at all, shafts are just a little lighter at around 3.8-3.9oz. I now realize that getting that specific is probably not always achievable, especially not as perfectly as what I ended up receiving, and probably not the most reasonable thing to request in a cue build.

Feel lucky he was able to get so close to my request and didn't tell me to look elsewhere and even now, coming up on 8 years later, I still love these two cues I have from him more than any others I've ever tried and use one as my daily player to this day.

 

[Guy Manges]

Balance is a personal preference and very difficult for a custom maker to achieve anything exacting at a particular weight. As a long time merchant of custom cues, with a 58" cue the acceptable range is 18" to 20" from the end of the buttcap. I personally prefer a balance point of 18-3/4 to 19-1/4". I will also add that if the cue weight is in the 19.5oz to 19.75 oz range, then my balance preference would extend forward a bit.

In the early 2000's I contacted Pau; Mottey to discuss having him build me a new custom cue. When I began talking about a specific balance point he rightfully told me I should probably go somewhere else! It was only after I had spent a few years working on weekends with a custom cue maker that I could more clearly understand the balance range variables. Lol.

So many of us players don't understand the use of balance point in the use of force associated with the cue and pool... Guy...
Thank all for the just and wright meanings...