That is what I think the rule is talking about in regards to the cb crossing the head string. Similar situation from barroom rules for 8 ball. Say if the 8 is hung in one of the pockets in the kitchen and you are coming to the table with bih in the kitchen, you can shoot at the 8, but you have to kick out of the kitchen and back in, ie long table kick, or with the cb in the kitchen, kicking to the long rail with inside and coming back to pocket the 8 etc.
Ball In Hand In Kitchen Shot Legal?
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
That is what I think the rule is talking about in regards to the cb crossing the head string. Similar situation from barroom rules for 8 ball. Say if the 8 is hung in one of the pockets in the kitchen and you are coming to the table with bih in the kitchen, you can shoot at the 8, but you have to kick out of the kitchen and back in, ie long table kick, or with the cb in the kitchen, kicking to the long rail with inside and coming back to pocket the 8 etc.
If you say it loud enough, X = Not X. LOL
I agree with Matt, but since I retired I have a failure to communicate :smile:
The rule needs editing or clarification at the very least. It should also be defined based on the object ball not the cue ball. In one pocket the question comes up a lot whether to play by the center of the object ball of edge for whether or not it can be shot with bih behind the headstring.
The rule changed in 2008.
The shot is legal. The writer of the rule intended for it to be legal. The writer of the rule had this particular shot (along with other shots) in mind when he wrote the rule. I think the rules say the shot is legal.
It is also legal to shoot a masse shot out of the kitchen, reverse without hitting anything and come back to pocket a ball hanging in the jaws of a kitchen pocket.
A common return safe after a scratch at 14.1 is to play the cue ball just out of the kitchen and spin back off the side rail to end up frozen to the middle of the end rail. The shot is now legal even if you don't hit the cushion outside the kitchen as long as the cue ball has crossed the line on the shot. For example, you could swerve around the head spot.
The shot is legal. The writer of the rule intended for it to be legal. The writer of the rule had this particular shot (along with other shots) in mind when he wrote the rule. I think the rules say the shot is legal.
It is also legal to shoot a masse shot out of the kitchen, reverse without hitting anything and come back to pocket a ball hanging in the jaws of a kitchen pocket.
A common return safe after a scratch at 14.1 is to play the cue ball just out of the kitchen and spin back off the side rail to end up frozen to the middle of the end rail. The shot is now legal even if you don't hit the cushion outside the kitchen as long as the cue ball has crossed the line on the shot. For example, you could swerve around the head spot.
At pool, the positions of the balls are always according to the center (base) of the ball.
It is unfortunate that one pocket players sometimes define the positions of the balls incorrectly.
Sure looks like it to me.
I guess it isn't a big difference either way, since you can also cut some balls in that are completely out of the kitchen and this only adds a few more possibilities than that. Just surprised me...
pj
chgo
Just when I'd thought I'd seen threads about everything pool-related, Patrick brings an idea I've never even considered. Great thread PJ. 
You may want to look at the diagram again and then read the rules again. The center of the cue ball has passed the head string well before it hit the ball - thus according to the rules this is a perfectly legal shot.
Might come in handy... especially if you like getting into bar brawls.Just when I'd thought I'd seen threads about everything pool-related, Patrick brings an idea I've never even considered. Great thread PJ.
pj
chgo
If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen but part of it is in the kitchen, I can still shoot the object ball down to a corner pocket. In this case no part of the cue ball has crossed the line. Let's rethink....
It is most likely a bad idea and would sell out to the opponent but you could shoot one rail off the long rail and spin the cue ball back into the object ball. Not impossible but I can't envision a scenario where it would be a smart thing to do.
CSI's rules, which include the BCA pool league rules, specifically calls this shot a foul. First, it says the cue ball can hit another ball in the kitchen, but only if hits a cushion outside of the kitchen first.
Second, they also have an applied ruling (it's actually on page 96, not 95) that specifically diagrams the example in the first post, and says it is a foul.
Second, they also have an applied ruling (it's actually on page 96, not 95) that specifically diagrams the example in the first post, and says it is a foul.
Thanks BR....it's really just common sense and all you have to do is "literally" apply the rule as composed.
Tennessee.....if the base of the object ball lies outside the kitchen, then it's a legal shot because when the base
of an object ball is indeed "beyond" the head string imagined line............or a drawn line like on some table s which
would help illustrate the geographic boundaries of the head string.........then of course it's a playable shot....Geometry
dictates that the object ball cannot occupy two different positions, i.e., outside the line and inside the line.....it is or it isn't.
When you look at the spherical shape of the object ball, the curvature begins right after the apex point of contact by the cue ball
with the table surface because it's a perfect 360 degrees......anything you imagine to be the cue ball being both inside and beyond
the head string line simultaneously is simply an optical illusion.....maybe there's some fractional degree of cue ball surface area
that's in contact with the cloth before the curvature shape of the cue ball lifts itself off the table ...or head string line.......I suppose it
might be possible to place the cue ball in such a position where it could straddle the line and be even placed upon it but that is about
as close as you can get......and I'd argue then that the cue ball is still partially beyond the kitchen as much as it was in the kitchen and
therefore, would not be a legal shot.
Matt B.
Tennessee.....if the base of the object ball lies outside the kitchen, then it's a legal shot because when the base
of an object ball is indeed "beyond" the head string imagined line............or a drawn line like on some table s which
would help illustrate the geographic boundaries of the head string.........then of course it's a playable shot....Geometry
dictates that the object ball cannot occupy two different positions, i.e., outside the line and inside the line.....it is or it isn't.
When you look at the spherical shape of the object ball, the curvature begins right after the apex point of contact by the cue ball
with the table surface because it's a perfect 360 degrees......anything you imagine to be the cue ball being both inside and beyond
the head string line simultaneously is simply an optical illusion.....maybe there's some fractional degree of cue ball surface area
that's in contact with the cloth before the curvature shape of the cue ball lifts itself off the table ...or head string line.......I suppose it
might be possible to place the cue ball in such a position where it could straddle the line and be even placed upon it but that is about
as close as you can get......and I'd argue then that the cue ball is still partially beyond the kitchen as much as it was in the kitchen and
therefore, would not be a legal shot.
Matt B.
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Which rule - The one posted from WPA or the one from CSI?
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be aware
Just to clarify some things:
For those who use the term “in the kitchen” or “kitchen line”; please, always remember this small detail:
WPA Standarized
8. Definitions Used in the Rules
8.1 Parts of the Table
(…) Behind the head string is the area between the head rail and the head string, not including the head string. (…)
It means that the ball "sitting" directly on the "kitchen line" is not "in the kitchen"
As to the Ruling on that kind of shot:
Bob Jewett in his posts #25 & #26 is 100% correct.
Just to clarify some things:
For those who use the term “in the kitchen” or “kitchen line”; please, always remember this small detail:
WPA Standarized
8. Definitions Used in the Rules
8.1 Parts of the Table
(…) Behind the head string is the area between the head rail and the head string, not including the head string. (…)
It means that the ball "sitting" directly on the "kitchen line" is not "in the kitchen"
As to the Ruling on that kind of shot:
Bob Jewett in his posts #25 & #26 is 100% correct.
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must say this
This is very correct, that is why there are Referee’s Courses; and these are precisely the very situations where the Referee's experience comes into play
However, this statement:
This is more like “freewheeling towards a cliff”
Any Ruling must be executed according to what the Rules (or Regulations) define. Can you support the above with anything that can be found in the set of Rules ??? Or is it just your own imagination, ooops, pardon me I should have just said: implication ???
This is very correct, that is why there are Referee’s Courses; and these are precisely the very situations where the Referee's experience comes into play
However, this statement: This is more like “freewheeling towards a cliff”
Any Ruling must be executed according to what the Rules (or Regulations) define. Can you support the above with anything that can be found in the set of Rules ??? Or is it just your own imagination,
ooops, pardon me I should have just said: implication ???
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This is very correct, that is why there are Referee’s Courses; and these are precisely the very situations where the Referee's experience comes into play
This is more like “freewheeling towards a cliff”
Any Ruling must be executed according to what the Rules (or Regulations) define. Can you support the above with anything that can be found in the set of Rules ??? Or is it just your own imagination,
How do you determine where the base of the ball is at any given point if it is in motion? Of course that particular term was meant for balls that are not in motion. That term was meant for checking the cue ball when placing it, or for measuring a stationary ball to see if a particular shot is legal.
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If you have bih behind the head string, the cue ball must pass the head string regardless of where the object ball is. Therefore in the instance you cited, with bih behind the head string, the shot would be illegal.
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I guess you'd have to determine it beforehand (by estimating the ghost ball position? I don't suppose you could use another out-of-play ball for that...).
What happens if it isn't declared one way or the other beforehand? Does the call go for or against the shooter?
pj
chgo