Balukas or A. Fisher??

[Terry Erdman]

That could be a true statement, Watchez…….. But Allison could probably spot Jean playing snooker on a 6X12. This argument is going to come down to the age of the responder. People of Jean’s era who have seen both in their prime are probably going with Jean and rightfully so, IMHO. In a 9 ball “Winner Break” situation, Jean, has to be the favorite due to her powerful break. I think everyone would agree that Allison’s break is her worse enemy. Jean’s break is her bailiwick. In tournament play, Jean beat, in succession, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall and Steve Mizarak. All this in a winner break format, which allows stringing racks together. Jean’s, power stroke allowed her the advantage of going two rails out of the corner for position, as most men players do, rather than going one rail to the same position point. In an alternate break format I believe it would be a toss-up. Allison does not play straight pool, as far as I know and Jean was the master of the game.

I was not fortunate enough to see JB play but from what I've heard Hemicudas has it right! McReady, Buddy and the Miz all in their prime is a tough act to follow and she did what another champion of golf did. She dominated everybody and then retired in her prime. (Yes, Byron Nelson everybody knows won 11 straight tournaments and it is a record that will never be broken. But most people don't know that Lord Byron was the most consistent player of all time! He never has scored over par in a four day tournament in his career.) So I wish JB would come out of retirement and entertain us all. I think that even Allison would enjoy the challenge.

 

[tedkaufman]

I wouldn't be so quick to give Jean the nod over Allison. Yes, she did beat some of the men in a few men's tournaments, but she sure as hell never dominated the men. In those days, playing a woman was a joke. If a man played a woman, first of all he considered it an insult that he should have to play her at all; secondly, to lose to a woman at that time would be the ultimate humiliation. So I dare say, when men played Jean, they tended not to take her seriously, or they found themselves in a lose-lose situation, where they were supposed to win, yet would face inordinate pressue to win.

Yes, Jean had a phenominal tournament record against the other women. I only saw her play in one tournament. That was the US Open 14.1 in the late 1970's or early 80's. Jean won that tournament against a field consisting of stars like Billie Billings, Vicki Paski, Belinda Bearden, and Peg Ledman. Jean, as I recall set the women's record for a run in straight pool. I believe it was 56. The rest of the women couldn't run a rack. This, on a table with 5" pockets.

Allison played one straight pool tournament to my knowledge. She won it, and I believe she had a high run in the 70-80 range. From day one, Allison has played against female players of the caliber of Eva Mataya (Laurance), Lorie John Jones, and Jeannette Lee, when they were all in their prime, and very competative fields of well schooled females in later years, led by Karen Corr.

Keep in mind, too, when comparing Jean to Allison, that the was no such thing in Jean's day of alternate break, of kick safeties, or ball in hand, or short sets made for TV races to 7.

Allison has played against much stronger fields than Jean ever did, and has dominated for over a decade. In my view, the level of play of all players, men and women, is stronger today than it ever was. I don't think, were you to take Jean's game from 25 years ago and put her in with Allison in her prime, Jean would like it at all.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

Jean was a complete player with a tremendous stroke, big-time break and table management beyond measure. Allison is amazing...very gifted and as solid a player man or woman BUT the edge goes to Jean, IMO.

 

[Cornerman]

Just out of curiosity....who does everyone think is/was the best between Jean Balukas and Allison Fisher? I know that Balukas has a record 16 straight wins on the WPBA and it hasnt been broken yet. She also played and cashed in some of the mens events as well. Allison...well.....Allison is Allison. Enough said. Whose your choice?

Southpaw

As always, it's impossible to compare a dominant performer in one era versus a dominant performer in another. We can only say how they dominated their era. And Jean dominated her era more than Allison. We can say what we want about today's players being better (they are), but a champion is a champion and it's pretty clear to me that Jean's game would be better in a better field than it was in a weak field. Does anyone disagree with that?

That all being said, we asked someone who played both during a time when both dominated, and here's what she had to say:

From:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/bf96e1dbaa44815c?dmode=source

Ok now I put myself out on the line, my opinion. If Allison would have
come during Jean's time my vote would have been for Jean hands down!
Only now it is Allison's time and my vote would have to be with Allison.

Read the rest of the post. It's very enlightening from one who was there.

I had the wonderful fortune to have been sitting next to Jean in Valley Forge for the entire Sunday session one year. We talked about softball, sports in general, getting older, getting injured. But, she talked about the same things about pool in the post by Robin. No winner take all if she ever played Allison in a challenge match (which she didn't seem all that interest in). She likes the idea that she'd be a fan favorite (on tour) instead of the target. But more importantly, that really, she had zero intention, inkling, temptation, or desire to play on tour. That's not her anymore.

Fred

 

[Johnnyt]

I don't know how Jean plays now, but I have seen both women play in their prime. I have to give a slight edge to Jean in 9-ball winner breaks.

If Jean could get in stroke like she was before she retired I'd pay $50 - $100 to see them play ten ahead 9-ball. If Jean wasn't as good as she was I wouldn't pay $10, in fact I wouldn't want to see it. Johnnyt

 

[ScottR]

<snip>
But more importantly, that really, she had zero intention, inkling, temptation, or desire to play on tour. That's not her anymore.

Fred

But it sure would be a heck of a match to watch . . . .

 

[wahcheck]

no fair competition possible

Although Allison is amoung the best of today's women,
compared to Jean in her prime, Fisher isn't even close to being close.

Dale

The operative word here is "prime"........I don't think any fair assessment could be made if you staged a match today; JB is past her prime and AF is maybe still in hers....this is kind of question of who would win between Ali and Marciano.....imho I would say JB gets the edge because she seems to have had more natural talent whereas AF looks more mechanical in her style...

 

[14oneman]

Well if you look at who Balukas faced in tournaments vs Allison, the nod totally goes for Balukas. Why? because she faced men and beat them way before any lady was playing against men on the pro tour.

I am a firm believer that if Jean Balukas was still playing on the WPBA tour, she'd make Allison look just like a average women player.

I think even now if Jean Balukas came back to play on tour all the girls on the WPBA tour wouldnt like it at all, cuz she'd still be able to kick thier butts.

AMEN!!!!!!

 

[elvicash]

I think its just talk and is hard to say as most people here have not seen JB play. Are there any videos of her playing from back in the day.

BTW - Why did JB quit playing pool???

On another note

Why can women not play in the big US Open?

 

[cheemagun]

Jean still plays in her little thursday night local tourney once in a while. she still runs out once she sees a ball. the difference i see in her play and allison/corr is that she 1) breaks like a man. 2) runs out like a man. she will go for the 3 - 4 rail position.

 

[Cornerman]

Why Jean Quit.

I think its just talk and is hard to say as most people here have not seen JB play. Are there any videos of her playing from back in the day.

BTW - Why did JB quit playing pool???

Here's what I've written before plus a couple of useful links. In a nutshell, she was ready to quit, losing the thrill, and an opportunity to quit presented itself.

1988 Brunswick World Open. As far as I remember, Robin Bell smashed in a 9-ball combo, and a 9-ball on the break or two, as was typical of her. She was definitely a fire-at-anything type of player as shotmaking. Jean made some verbal berating remarks about being lucky and how the game should be played, etc., to which Robin responded, "I would never do that (verbal sharking) to you." Jean won that completing her unfinished 16 tournament wins in a row.
Robin filed a complaint with the WPBA board. The board (made up of players) doled out the fine. The WPBA fined Jean something small ($200?) for the sharking, and Jean refusing to pay it walked away from the tour. The two as far as I know remain friends. Jean said (to me) that at the time, she really was sick of playing on the tour and was probably looking for a good excuse to walk. She hasn't really entertained any comebacks (on the WPBA tour).


The story on the face of it


Post on meeting Jean


Fred

 

[Southpaw]

I wouldn't be so quick to give Jean the nod over Allison. Yes, she did beat some of the men in a few men's tournaments, but she sure as hell never dominated the men. In those days, playing a woman was a joke. If a man played a woman, first of all he considered it an insult that he should have to play her at all; secondly, to lose to a woman at that time would be the ultimate humiliation. So I dare say, when men played Jean, they tended not to take her seriously, or they found themselves in a lose-lose situation, where they were supposed to win, yet would face inordinate pressue to win.

Yes, Jean had a phenominal tournament record against the other women. I only saw her play in one tournament. That was the US Open 14.1 in the late 1970's or early 80's. Jean won that tournament against a field consisting of stars like Billie Billings, Vicki Paski, Belinda Bearden, and Peg Ledman. Jean, as I recall set the women's record for a run in straight pool. I believe it was 56. The rest of the women couldn't run a rack. This, on a table with 5" pockets.

Allison played one straight pool tournament to my knowledge. She won it, and I believe she had a high run in the 70-80 range. From day one, Allison has played against female players of the caliber of Eva Mataya (Laurance), Lorie John Jones, and Jeannette Lee, when they were all in their prime, and very competative fields of well schooled females in later years, led by Karen Corr.

Keep in mind, too, when comparing Jean to Allison, that the was no such thing in Jean's day of alternate break, of kick safeties, or ball in hand, or short sets made for TV races to 7.

Allison has played against much stronger fields than Jean ever did, and has dominated for over a decade. In my view, the level of play of all players, men and women, is stronger today than it ever was. I don't think, were you to take Jean's game from 25 years ago and put her in with Allison in her prime, Jean would like it at all.

Jean faced a pretty tough ladies field as well...Robin Dodson, Lori Jon and Ewa (ofcourse they are no Karen Corr) and the no ball in hand and longer races made 9 ball a tougher game as well. If they played 9 ball today like they did back then, with no ball in hand, you would see a huge difference in the mens tournies as well.

Southpaw

 

[Snapshot9]

My .02 cents

As someone that has played a #1 Woman player before back in the day (Dorothy Wise "Dotty"), here is my opinion:

1) Race to 150, 14.1, even match Jean spotting Allison 30 balls.
2) 9 ball, winner breaks (Money style), race to 50, Jean spotting Allison
12-13 games on the wire for even match.
3) 9 ball, alternate break (tournament style), race to 50, Jean spotting Allison 8 games on the wire for even match.

I think Jean is a little better strategist than Allison, although we would have to see her 'defense' to really conclude on that. Jean has the better stroke, IMO, but not to take away from Allison as she also has a very good stroke. On power shots, Jean wins hands down against Allison.

The competition for Jean was not as tough as Allison playing other women players, but Jean played some well respoected men's players, and beat them, therefore I think the toughness and killer instinct has to go to Jean too, although Allison is a fighter too.

BTW, I would of considered Dotty an 'A' player, but not above that. I took $400 off of her playing on a big table, and feel as if I could have given her the 7. She had a male companion with her to be the 'draw', with her being the 'hammer', but it didn't work out for them.

Another point I would like to make is Jean retired in 1989 at the age of 29, so she is ONLY 46 TODAY, and not what I would call 'over the hill'. If they were ever matched up, I think it wouild stand the Pool world on its head, being able to sell out railbird seats for $500 a seat, as well as being on TV. And they would have to play by TODAY'S standards, not yesterdays.

 

[watchez]

Just ask any of the men players that were around in Jean's time. Pick a men's player that would be somewhere between top 40-100. That player would play Jean even and give any woman today (including Allison) the seven ball. (A recent history of this was John Hager Jr giving Jeanette Lee the 7--Result: No Contest). Winner breaks 9 ball, legitimate table.

 

[jay helfert]

Here's what I've written before plus a couple of useful links. In a nutshell, she was ready to quit, losing the thrill, and an opportunity to quit presented itself.

1988 Brunswick World Open. As far as I remember, Robin Bell smashed in a 9-ball combo, and a 9-ball on the break or two, as was typical of her. She was definitely a fire-at-anything type of player as shotmaking. Jean made some verbal berating remarks about being lucky and how the game should be played, etc., to which Robin responded, "I would never do that (verbal sharking) to you." Jean won that tournament ending an unfinished 16 tournament wins in a row.
Robin filed a complaint with the WPBA board. The board (made up of players) doled out the fine. The WPBA fined Jean something small ($200?) for the sharking, and Jean refusing to pay it walked away from the tour. The two as far as I know remain friends. Jean said (to me) that at the time, she really was sick of playing on the tour and was probably looking for a good excuse to walk. She hasn't really entertained any comebacks (on the WPBA tour).


The story on the face of it


Post on meeting Jean


Fred

This information is all quite accurate. I was Co-Director with Pat Fleming of the Brunswick World Open at Caesar's Palace. I was out in the television truck when the incident happened. There is a tape of this match, although I don't have it.

Basically a minor beef, and a subsequent (questionable?) fine, ended up curtailing the career of a legend. I often said that I saw worse in every men's tournament I ever officiated. It was not much of an altercation.

My personal feeling was that the other women were tired of Jean beating them ALL the time, and wanted an excuse to ban her. They may not like me saying this, but I have always had this feeling.

 

[jay helfert]

Karen Corr has won many matches against men who play just as well as the men Jean faced. And Allison and Jeanette have beaten a few top ranked guys as well.

Sometimes in looking back we see things with tainted vision. Remember, I'm a guy who says the top men of yesteryear were every bit as good as the top men today. And I believe that to my core.

Jean Balukas was a great pool player. But the same can be said for Allison and Karen. And the level of competition they face today is light years ahead of the fields Jean had to beat. Many of those 16 straight wins were against fields of 16 (or fewer) players.

I am continually impressed by the fact that Allison and Karen keep right on winning with the fields getting stronger all the time. They both have a tremendous will to win that cannot be discounted. Jean was a great pool player, no question. But you are seeing two great ones today as well.

Their respective styles are quite different. Jean played like a guy, more like Jasmin. But Allie and Karen are quite effective with their snooker oriented style. And they don't miss many balls. If someone were to have Accu-Stated Jean's matches and compared those stats with Allie and Karen, I suspect it would be close. In fact the latter two may be less error prone.

Jean had a big game and went for hard shots. When she was on, look at. But when she misfired she went down too (against the guys). One last time, I call it a toss-up. If Jean played today, she would NOT be the dominant player. But could she win on the current WPBT, damn right she could.

 

[PoolBum]

Keep in mind, too, when comparing Jean to Allison, that the was no such thing in Jean's day of alternate break, of kick safeties, or ball in hand, or short sets made for TV races to 7.

I have the tape of Jean vs. Ewa in the finals of the 1987 Classic Cup VI and, FWIW, they did play ball in hand for fouls after the break (behind the headstring for fouls on the break), with all balls spotting.

 

[worriedbeef]

cuechick earlier said Jean didn't really have a love for the game, her heart was more into tennis or golf. can anybody elaborate on this? it's not very often you have arguably the greatest player in a sport not having a real love for the game. interesting.

also are there any videos of her playing about? never even seen her hit a ball.

 

[Johnnyt]

This information is all quite accurate. I was Co-Director with Pat Fleming of the Brunswick World Open at Caesar's Palace. I was out in the television truck when the incident happened. There is a tape of this match, although I don't have it.

Basically a minor beef, and a subsequent (questionable?) fine, ended up curtailing the career of a legend. I often said that I saw worse in every men's tournament I ever officiated. It was not much of an altercation.

My personal feeling was that the other women were tired of Jean beating them ALL the time, and wanted an excuse to ban her. They may not like me saying this, but I have always had this feeling.

I think a lot of us that were around back then have that feeling. I do for sure. Johnnyt

 

[jay helfert]

cuechick earlier said Jean didn't really have a love for the game, her heart was more into tennis or golf. can anybody elaborate on this? it's not very often you have arguably the greatest player in a sport not having a real love for the game. interesting.

also are there any videos of her playing about? never even seen her hit a ball.

Jean Balukas was a great all around athlete, once finishing second in a Superstars competition agains the top women athletes in the world. She could play any game including basketball or baseball. She is a big powerful well co-ordinated lady.

Supposedly her golf game is low handicap and I can imagine her smacking those tennis balls pretty damn hard.

She did love pool and probably still enjoys the game. But she grew weary of it after 25 years of constant play. The life of a pool player and the expectations on her finally became too much.