Banking and Kicking using angle in angle out correctly...

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
Let me preface this by stating that banks have more feel by necessity than any other shot in pool, so any system will only be a starting point...

Ok now that that is covered...

The below illustration showcases both the correct way to use angle in/angle out in relation to banking and kicking and it showcases how the most common mistake that is made gives you an incorrect result.

Let me explain what you are looking at.

The diagram shows a common rail first kick that comes up in play often, and when people miss it by a mile, they often have no clue what they did wrong.

I am about to show you why.

At first glance this diagram can appear REALLY confusing, but bear with me and pay close attention and it will make a LOT of sense...

The biggest problem with using angle in/angle out is that the greater the severity of the angle, the greater the disparity between center ball (of the ball contacting the rail) and the CP (contact point) of the ball contacting the rail.

The great thing about it is that it is EASY to find the CP on any ball that will make contact with a rail. It is ALWAYS parallel to the rail.

The contact point on any ball making contact with the rail at any angle will ALWAYS be the part of the ball closest to the rail it is contacting.

In the diagram I've drawn out to illustrate this there are several lines and a few balls drawn. Let me tell you what each of those lines and balls represent and you can test this out yourself.

The solid black ball represents an OB that is slightly off the rail.

The solid lined ball directly behind the OB represents the CB after coming off the rail and contacting the OB when it is aimed using the correct angle in/angle out method.

The dashed lined ball represents the CB coming off the rail and contacting the OB when you aim angle in/angle out through center ball (*the wrong way*).

If you look at the starting point of the cueball (represented by the ball that is farthest from the OB) you will see a line contacting the edge of the ball closest to the rail that the ball will be contacting.

This is the proper starting aim point for angle in/angle out kicking and banking.

If you aim at the rail, where this point hits, the CB will rebound from the rail (on a medium shot all things being equal) at the SAME angle that it approached it from.

The way that you would know where to aim at on the rail through center ball, is by parallel shifting from that line to the place on center ball

The circled portion on the rail marked CB-AP represents the correct angle in/angle out starting point.

The circled portion on the rail that is marked CP-PS-AP represents the cueball's center ball aim point. IOW, it is the place that you want to aim through center cueball, if you want to make the shot.

The dashed line that leaves the starting cueball represents where most people aim when trying to use angle in/angle out aiming which is the angle in/angle out angle through center ball and is wrong.

At first glance it looks like the ball will rebound at the correct angle because that line goes right through center ball of the correctly placed cueball, but it isn't the part of the rail that the cueball makes contact with though because the ball has already made contact with the rail before it can get that far.

If you look at the double dashed line, you will see where the ball will ACTUALLY contact the rail which leads to a BAD miss, sometimes including missing the ball entirely depending on the severity of the angle.

Don't take my word for this. Setup the shot and try it using both methods and see for yourself.

Aim through centerball angle in/angle out and aim through the CP (point on the ball that is closest to the rail and can be found with a line parallel to the rail where it contacts the ball) and then shift to center ball.

You will see that the balls do pretty much exactly what I have diagrammed here.

Jaden
 

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Confusing

That system is confusing.....I banked an 01-ball. :confused:

Confusing ?
When you can see the shot in the mirror, its like you are not banking at all.
It is like you are shooting the ball straight in, and now I am trying to get leave off my bank and kick shots.
Before I was just trying to pocket or even just hit the OB or get close to the pocket.


It sure improved my game more then any training aid I had ever used or tried before.

My bank kicks have improved leaps and bounds to compared to how I was shooting before.

IMO best training aid I have ever used for pool.
 
Here's an illustration and explanation from a thread I did on banking and kicking

posted in wrong thread sorry...

Jaden
 

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There are so many variant in a bank / kick shot that the angle out will almost never be the same as the angle in.

How hard you hit it, how new the cloth / balls are, the humidity, the approach angle, the distance from the rail, intentional / unintentional spin.

There is one thing that is true about banking. You need to hit them firm and consistently that way so that so many of those variables do not come into play and when they do it is pretty consistent across tables.

One other benefit if hitting them firm is that it makes the pocket larger as you are changing the approach angle to a more direct one.
 
That's a limited strategy to kicking and banking...

There are so many variant in a bank / kick shot that the angle out will almost never be the same as the angle in.

How hard you hit it, how new the cloth / balls are, the humidity, the approach angle, the distance from the rail, intentional / unintentional spin.

There is one thing that is true about banking. You need to hit them firm and consistently that way so that so many of those variables do not come into play and when they do it is pretty consistent across tables.

One other benefit if hitting them firm is that it makes the pocket larger as you are changing the approach angle to a more direct one.

That's a VERY basic approach to kicking and banking. It takes away a lot of potential shots.

You should be able to use sidespin, firmness of hit etc, to change the angles in your favor and open up tons more shots that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Having a known way of using angle in/angle out gives you a baseline that lets the other adjustments you need to make more consistent.

besides which, you can hit the illustrated shot hard all day long and you'll just miss it worse if you don't know how to initially aim...

Jaden
 
That's a VERY basic approach to kicking and banking. It takes away a lot of potential shots.

You should be able to use sidespin, firmness of hit etc, to change the angles in your favor and open up tons more shots that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Having a known way of using angle in/angle out gives you a baseline that lets the other adjustments you need to make more consistent.

besides which, you can hit the illustrated shot hard all day long and you'll just miss it worse if you don't know how to initially aim...

Jaden

I should have clarified that the angle in/out is always a starting point to get an idea of the angle and direction the ball will head, but that is it. It is like the diamond system, spot on the wall, mirror image or whatever system you want to use with adjusting for things you can't control (rail slide, table slide, CIT, etc). It gets you in the general area and then you use the other finer aspects you mentioned to actually get the ball where you need it.

Regardless a firm stroke is the most consistent even when making the adjustments.
 
that's better than centerball aiming but still inaccurate...

I made the attached sketch which should explain what you are trying to say a little better. Thanks for the post. I found it very informative.

That illustration is still inaccurate. You have to aim through the CP which varies relative to center ball and edge of ball depending on the severity of angle. It is however always the point of the ball closest to the rail that the ball will contact.

If the approach angle is 10 degrees, the balls contact point with the rail will be REALLY close to center ball which is why most people have an easier time making straight back banks into the side pockets.

If the approach angle of the ball is 85 degrees like in some rail first kick shots, the contact point will be up to and possibly exceeding 2/3rds of a ball...away from the center ball aimline...

Jaden
 
I just drew this out.

I just drew this out. Notice how different the contact point with the rail is depending on the severity of the angle of approach.

Jaden
 

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A couple of variables not mentioned is height of the rails (higher than the cue or object ball's equator) and condition (age) of the rubber..........tables can be different based on my experience.

Matt B.
 
actually I did mention that in the other thread...

A couple of variables not mentioned is height of the rails (higher than the cue or object ball's equator) and condition (age) of the rubber..........tables can be different based on my experience.

Matt B.

Diamond red labels had different angles making them sit higher that were specifically designed to overcome this problem which is why they bank tighter.

For most shots on a diamond red label, you can aim through center ball. There are exceptions, but center ball aiming for banks and kicks is a good starting point on a diamond red label.

On a blue label, you have to adjust from the contact point just the same as other tables like gold crowns...

There are some other tables that are the opposite and bank wide like olhausens...don't get me started on OlHausens...arggghhhh

Jaden
 
A couple of variables not mentioned is height of the rails (higher than the cue or object ball's equator) and condition (age) of the rubber..........tables can be different based on my experience.
For a given table, there are many additional effects that need to be taken into account when aiming various types of kick and bank shots. Many of them are summarized and demonstrated on the kick and bank shots effects resource page (in the bulleted list).

For those interested, commonly-used and effective kick and bank shot aiming systems that cover a wide variety of shot types can be found here (with illustrations, video demonstrations, and supporting instructional articles):

kick and bank shot aiming system resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
 
This thread I created to illustrate the idea...

I created this thread to illustrate the idea behind correctly using angle in/angle out for kicks and banks. It's not the easiest way to understand a way to USE that idea...

Probably the easiest way is similar to the easiest way to find where to aim to pocket a ball. Pick a point a half ball away from the contact and aim at THAT point.

IOW, aim for angle in/angle out a half a ball out from the rail. It gives you the same result. The main problem with that method is the same as aiming a half ball behind an object ball. How successful you are is entirely contingent on how well you can accurately visualize a half a ball from however far away from the rail you are.

Jaden
 
The same principal applies to 2 rail kicks. If you consider only the surface of the table that the CB rolls on a table is not truely twice it width. Measure the distance between the wear strips on the cloth. On a 9 ft table the distance will be

100 -2 1/4= 97 3/4.

50 - 2 1/4 = 47 3/4

2 X 47 3/4 = 95 1/2 not 97 3/4

This is why shooting a 3 rail kick from one corner pocket to the other is not symmetrical as you think it should be.

🎱
 
This is why shooting a 3 rail kick from one corner pocket to the other is not symmetrical as you think it should be. 🎱

I would think it is not symmetrical because of the friction induced spin from hitting the rail, the rail forces against the ball after it hits rail, the slide of the ball after it hits the rail and forward arch on the cue ball as the forward roll after it hits the rail wears off, x's that by 3 as it hits each rail.
 
I get what you're saying I think.

Visually, the contact point for a narrow angle kick,
is not that far from the middle of the cue ball and the line you want to aim.
Whereas for a wider angle kick, it's quite a difference.

But I think the single biggest challenge for kicking is accounting for the natural
shortening effect that rail compression causes. All banks start out going
a bit shorter than "angle in = angle out". They get "cupped" by the rubber
in the cushion and this sends them away from the rail at a sharper angle
than the normal mirror angle.

Then, if you have low speed or topspin, or if they're sliding but pick up
some topspin after travelling a ways, they might widen/lengthen out,
and end up back on the mirror angle.

But a lot of banks have none of the above and are always going to be shorter
than the mirror angle, so you have to compensate by hitting further up the rail
or using just the right amount of outside. Either of which require feel.

For very wide angles, especially at low speed,
the "cupping effect" is not so bad and the the cue ball
actually comes off the rail pretty close to the mirror angle.
And most people try that railfirst kick at very wide angles.
But they miss anyway. Why?

Because a lot of people misunderstand the basic imaginary mirror ball system
taught in books and online. They imagine a ball that is "mirrored" on the other
side of the cushion. Then they aim straight at this imaginary ball.
But if you do that, and the angle in = angle out, then you hit the object
ball right smack in the face. You aren't cutting it to the hole.
So you have to aim to CUT the imaginary ball, which is a little trickier.

http://i.imgur.com/du3NDYV.jpg
 
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