Banking w/ the Beard - Didn't work... hmmm..

Clark_the_Shark

Clark_the_Shark

Has 9-Ball-itis
Silver Member
So I've been playing pool for over 10 years on the big tables and am fairly good. But my banking has left to be desired... So I purchased the Banking with the Beard book and I have to say... I was very impressed. I studied the first 1/4 of the book so far and really tried to engrain the concepts into my head.

Well... I went to my local hall and thought I'd try out the first couple of shots detailed in the first couple of pages... the ones that were natural 2:1 banks lined up from the side pocket to the cross corner pocket. I tried basically all 5 of them and they just didn't work. Especially the 2-Tips draw with FIRM speed one. The bank came up short every time. I know that I am hitting that ball FULL-IN-THE-FACE directly into the aiming line on new cloth Gold Crown III's. Granted the rails are old... but is that my only problem? I mean, I'm no slouch, and I know if I'm hitting a ball full or not, I run racks fairly consitently. What's the deal?
 
Clark_the_Shark said:
So I've been playing pool for over 10 years on the big tables and am fairly good. But my banking has left to be desired... So I purchased the Banking with the Beard book and I have to say... I was very impressed. I studied the first 1/4 of the book so far and really tried to engrain the concepts into my head.

Well... I went to my local hall and thought I'd try out the first couple of shots detailed in the first couple of pages... the ones that were natural 2:1 banks lined up from the side pocket to the cross corner pocket. I tried basically all 5 of them and they just didn't work. Especially the 2-Tips draw with FIRM speed one. The bank came up short every time. I know that I am hitting that ball FULL-IN-THE-FACE directly into the aiming line on new cloth Gold Crown III's. Granted the rails are old... but is that my only problem? I mean, I'm no slouch, and I know if I'm hitting a ball full or not, I run racks fairly consitently. What's the deal?
Click to expand...

It sounds like you think:

1. The firm hit will make the ball bank short (this is probably true)

and

2. The draw will counteract the firm hit and make the ball bank "true" (this is probably not true).

Putting draw on the CB might put a little follow on the OB, but not as much as it had when you were hitting it slower without draw.

Also, maybe you're not hitting them as accurately as you think. You're supposed to miss more banks than straight-in shots.

pj
chgo
 
Clark_the_Shark said:
So I've been playing pool for over 10 years on the big tables and am fairly good. But my banking has left to be desired... So I purchased the Banking with the Beard book and I have to say... I was very impressed. I studied the first 1/4 of the book so far and really tried to engrain the concepts into my head.

Well... I went to my local hall and thought I'd try out the first couple of shots detailed in the first couple of pages... the ones that were natural 2:1 banks lined up from the side pocket to the cross corner pocket. I tried basically all 5 of them and they just didn't work. Especially the 2-Tips draw with FIRM speed one. The bank came up short every time. I know that I am hitting that ball FULL-IN-THE-FACE directly into the aiming line on new cloth Gold Crown III's. Granted the rails are old... but is that my only problem? I mean, I'm no slouch, and I know if I'm hitting a ball full or not, I run racks fairly consitently. What's the deal?
Click to expand...
There are variables banking balls on different tables like new cloth, clean balls vs dirty balls, the humidity, the type of rail rubber and how old it is etc. and I think you have to adjust your banking speed and aim to the conditions. I'd use the information from Freddy the Beard as my base line and adjust his system to the place you are playing. Try a few banks and see if you need to aim a little past the pocket etc to get the feel of hitting the bank shots. I don't think there is a system that works all the time and Freddy's information is a good system to use for your basic banks anywhere you play with you knowing that you may need to adjust for the conditions.

James
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It sounds like you think:


2. The draw will counteract the firm hit and make the ball bank "true" (this is probably not true).

Putting draw on the CB might put a little follow on the OB, but not as much as it had when you were hitting it slower without draw.
pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Yeah... but the SLOW speed with a 1/2 tip follow didn't work either. But I think SCCues is right... I'l just have to adjust to the table. I just thought these first few were standard and should be automatic on any table.
 
Sorry to hear it didn't play out perfectly as it was supposed to like in the book. Banking and kicking systems are wonderful to a point...they still must be adjusted to the table they are being used on. Some tables play short, some long all dependent upon the condition of the table and the equipment being played with, (table, cue, cueball, etc.).

Knowledge is a wonderful thing and The Beard has definately got plenty of it. Please don't disregard anything you have studied in his book as I'm sure it's accurate, but just realize that there will need to be adjustments made for the playing conditions your shooting on.

Keep hittin' 'em straight and have fun! :)
 
Read the whole book, then go back to practicing the concepts. He discusses adjusting for the different conditions, and how you should adjust.
 
I read the book as well and I believe it states in the book that every table is different. I think the cloth has a lot to do with it. From my experience tables covered with simonis760 or some other really fast cloth seem to come up dead on with how Freddy describes them in his book.
 
There are too many variables with banking. Try doing the almost fool proof sure fire automatic bank that goes from the side pocket to the corner by hitting the middle diamond. Chances are it doesn't work. Or just try shooting the CB to the middle diamond from the side pocket. Does it go into the corner pocket? This will give you some clues on how the rails are reacting. But you also have to take into account the speed of your shot, stroke and where you are striking the CB.

Then do you really expect to be able to make that bank without practicing it at least 100 times just because you seen it or read about it?

Pool is frustrating.
 
Clark_the_Shark said:
So I've been playing pool for over 10 years on the big tables and am fairly good. But my banking has left to be desired... So I purchased the Banking with the Beard book and I have to say... I was very impressed. I studied the first 1/4 of the book so far and really tried to engrain the concepts into my head.

Well... I went to my local hall and thought I'd try out the first couple of shots detailed in the first couple of pages... the ones that were natural 2:1 banks lined up from the side pocket to the cross corner pocket. I tried basically all 5 of them and they just didn't work. Especially the 2-Tips draw with FIRM speed one. The bank came up short every time. I know that I am hitting that ball FULL-IN-THE-FACE directly into the aiming line on new cloth Gold Crown III's. Granted the rails are old... but is that my only problem? I mean, I'm no slouch, and I know if I'm hitting a ball full or not, I run racks fairly consitently. What's the deal?
Click to expand...
Unless the GC3's you're talking about have had the cushions replaced, the cushions are probably going bad, or are already bad. GC3's were known to be terrible for the cushions.

Glen
 
Yeah... I don't know enough about pool equipment, but I do know that the rails are a little rippley from pulling the rail cloth too tight for 20 years. No hugely, but you can tell if you run your hand down them. The cloth is always good on these tables, but you're probably right about the rails. The problem is, there's 20 tables and the owner will probably be damned before he replaced any of them.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Also, maybe you're not hitting them as accurately as you think. You're supposed to miss more banks than straight-in shots.
Click to expand...
Actually, I don't think this is universally true. Certain banks that are dead on actually have a high degree of "automatic correction", such that your margin of error is actually higher compared to a straight-in shot of equal total distance.
 
It sounds like you think:

[...]

2. The draw will counteract the firm hit and make the ball bank "true" (this is probably not true).

Putting draw on the CB might put a little follow on the OB, but not as much as it had when you were hitting it slower without draw.
Click to expand...
Yeah... but the SLOW speed with a 1/2 tip follow didn't work either.
Click to expand...

Putting follow on the CB for a slow bank shot won't do anything. In fact, you should probably ignore the suggestion that follow or draw on the CB has any effect on banks at all.

But I think SCCues is right... I'l just have to adjust to the table. I just thought these first few were standard and should be automatic on any table.
Click to expand...

I think the shot itself (speed, bank angle, cut angle, aim/stroke error) is always a bigger variable than the table, but the only bank shots that are automatic on any table are very steep (probably no more than a diamond or so away).

pj
chgo
 
While each table will have its own idiosycracies, I have to agree with you on one of the shots in Freddie's book on page 38, Solution 2.
Solution 1 seems reasonable but Solution 2 seems to be an error. I don't think hitting two tips of draw with a FIRM stroke is going to pot the object ball one rail, unless maybe it is on brand new cloth in which case Solution 1 might not even work. IN Solution 2, I think the object ball comes up short on most tables. The faster speed with the FIRM stroke is sure to reduce the angle of departure from the rail.

All that being said, if you read Freddie's book, Banking with the Beard and your bank game doesn't improve, you may need some banking instruction from a bank player to explain some of the finer points. I have listened to Freddie in the commentary booth at DCC and he definitely knows banking so don't give up on his book just yet. I realize that you play rather well but banks is a different animal.

The use of side spin to help control the object ball's path of travel is worth the price of the book.

JoeyA
 
What kind of table were you playing on?

I find that for the beard systems you need to adjust unless you are playing on gold crowns.
 
...maybe you're not hitting them as accurately as you think. You're supposed to miss more banks than straight-in shots.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't think this is universally true. Certain banks that are dead on actually have a high degree of "automatic correction", such that your margin of error is actually higher compared to a straight-in shot of equal total distance.
Click to expand...

I think I know what you mean: if you cut them a little long or short the collision-induced throw and spin might correct them a little. But I bet "a high degree" of correction is an overstatement (I bet it only helps enough if your aim is only very slightly off), and I doubt that the slight correction can ever be as significant as a bank's greater sensitivity to all kinds of other variables (tip placement, speed, distance to rail, ball/cloth conditions, etc.).

In other words, I can believe that there's a little automatic correction going on for some banks, but I can't believe that the overall margin for error (including all the variables) is ever greater than for a non-bank. Of course, I've been wrong before... but my memory isn't what it used to be.

pj
chgo
 
maxeypad2007 said:
What kind of table were you playing on?

I find that for the beard systems you need to adjust unless you are playing on gold crowns.
Click to expand...
Re-read the first post again, he said what kind of table he was playing banking on;)

Glen
 
Oh don't get me wrong... I definately have not discounted his book in the slightest! That's why I started this thread saying that I was very impressed with his book. If anyone knows about banking, he's the guru for sure. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing something wrong. But I'm following his instructions/diagrams to the "T" and like I said, I'm no slouch either.
 
Banking on Diamond Pro Am

I have read Freddy's book and had the some problem. Wrote him and he said Diamonds bank short (they do). He had my adjust by cutting 1/4 more ball and hitting it firm. Did the trick.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Putting follow on the CB for a slow bank shot won't do anything. In fact, you should probably ignore the suggestion that follow or draw on the CB has any effect on banks at all.
Click to expand...

I think that if the object ball is close to the rail it can have an effect. Wouldn't you agree?
 
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