Bar Box pool; Is it "real" pool?

hi

nobody asked my opinion but here goes.bar table pool requires some skill of course.the 9ft is harder overall and takes more knowledge, but just because you can see the next ball on a 9ft does not mean you are inline to runout.also if you take a player who has played all his life on barbox and take a guy whos been on 9ft all his life and let them play the 10ball ghost on each table both players are going to run out nearly everytime on the barbox , but only the 9ft player is going to run out alot on the 9ft.for the record i think bar table pool is a joke.think about this ,if you had a league player that had to run a rack of 9ball with ball in hand ,and your life depended on him getting out or your dead, trust me your going to put him on that little joke,toy,piece of shit,ego helping ,non skill required thing we call a bar table.
 
Russ Chewning said:
Elitist. Who are you to say what a "proper" pool hall is? What? One that can't pay it's bills because it only has 20 "players"? But it shore is quiet, and it shore is perty! I happen to enjoy playing with some music going on. I can concentrate through it.



Yeah... ME. I "started" with bar pool. I had some natural talent, and a raw hatred for losing. "Pumping quarters" had nothing to do with it. I played a lot in a popular club with Valley tables. If I lost a game, I sat down for two hours because the waiting list was so long. Did absolute WONDERS for my mental game. I rarely spent more than $1.00 a night. The waiting list was so long, that if I lost one game, waited two hours for the next game, and then was done for the night if I lost.



Funny. I have never had a problem finding friendly, talented players who liked to teach, in MY pool halls. Only players who truly want to excel will seek out instruction, and they will definitely find it within 20-25 miles in most regions in the US.

I don't think you get it. Players START in bars, and FIND OUT there that they love the game, because they have the chance to play weak, confidence building opponents. Anyone with true ambition will move on from there to a real pool hall. Either that, or they will be in a region where the majority of "real" players play on the 7 footers. Doesn't really mattter which happens. In an area dominated by 7 footers, the level of play on the 7 footers will be just as high as with 9 footers. Same players laying down 6 or 7 packs, etc.

I sense you have a real dislike for bars, and you feel that pool tables should not be in them. If you take away pool from bars, you take away the social setting that forms most players.

I can only imagine what my like/dislike would have been if the first players I had to play were good players on the 9 footers. That would have been pretty demoralizing, to get so thoroughly dominated, as I would have, back in the day.

Russ
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Your post shows more that there are different reasons we play than that I am an elitist. I disagree with you but find it interesting that you like what you do in bar pool. My attitude and approach starting out was different. And here I really think it is a question of different as opposed to better or worse. Something important to figure out is why you play a game. Different people play them for different reasons, and it is clear our reasons are different. Looks like you still had to go to the pool hall though. How many of those players in the bar are really going to be the backbone of a strong sport? Sure they like it, but I think there needs to be more. That is what I am saying. I also understand that my view probably won't prevail. If that is the case I think pool will be in even worse shape in 30 years that it is now, and I hope to live long enough to complain about it then. And I will be right about what constitutes a proper pool hall.;)
 
Just a side note, where this has become an unintentional topic of conversation...

Not every 7' has poor conditions. I was considering everything about a 7' being equil with a 9'er.

Where I play, the tables have Simonis, we can use red dots and don't need quarters. Lighting is good, and the table is unimpeded by obstacles.
 
Such diplomacy

john schmidt said:
nobody asked my opinion but here goes.bar table pool requires some skill of course.the 9ft is harder overall and takes more knowledge, but just because you can see the next ball on a 9ft does not mean you are inline to runout.also if you take a player who has played all his life on barbox and take a guy whos been on 9ft all his life and let them play the 10ball ghost on each table both players are going to run out nearly everytime on the barbox , but only the 9ft player is going to run out alot on the 9ft.for the record i think bar table pool is a joke.think about this ,if you had a league player that had to run a rack of 9ball with ball in hand ,and your life depended on him getting out or your dead, trust me your going to put him on that little joke,toy,piece of shit,ego helping ,non skill required thing we call a bar table.
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Well Mr.Schmidt i dont play at anywhere near a pro level,dont have leagues in the area where i live,and dont generally play in bars.However the poolrooms within a 2 hour area where i live generally have 7 fters.So you see since i enjoy playing i have to play on those "little joke,toy,piece of shit,ego helping,non skill required things" as you put it.Your post, in my opinion, shows a lack of class and a true disrespect for the many thousands of us who truely enjoy our hobby and realize that pool for us will always be our hobby and not our means of support.Of course i am sure in your eyes we dont have the right to play anyway.M.Sellers
 
hi

my point exactly .i did not say the players who play on them are a joke i said the tables are.its your own fault if you want to be great at pool then you should get a 9ft.if you just want to be nowhere near pro caliber as you put it then keep playing on the bar table .you know part of the reason asia is so strong at pool is they dont play on bar tables they play on 9ft.you might think i have no class but im right ,the bar table does not teach you how to play like the 9ft period.
 
john schmidt said:
my point exactly .i did not say the players who play on them are a joke i said the tables are.its your own fault if you want to be great at pool then you should get a 9ft.if you just want to be nowhere near pro caliber as you put it then keep playing on the bar table .you know part of the reason asia is so strong at pool is they dont play on bar tables they play on 9ft.you might think i have no class but im right ,the bar table does not teach you how to play like the 9ft period.
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Mr Scmidt,I understand fully that a 7 ft table will never develop ones game as a 9 ft would.I relish every chance i get to play on the big tables.I have no argument there.My problem is that your very deragatory remarks are from the perspective of a pro player.I dont have an area in my home that will accomodate a 9 ft table and like most people in this country who are pool players i have a family,job,and the corresponding responsibilities.At age 47 i dont expect to ever be pro caliber but i really enjoy the game(oh,wait you dont consider what i play as real pool,sorry) and even go to Derby to watch the pros play.Most people who golf,play tennis,etc arent trying to go pro either but the professionals in those sports arent knocking the public tennis courts,golf courses,etc.M.Sellers
 
wow... i'm seeing some really strong opinions here. 1st of all let me say that i personally have a strong dislike for playing on bar boxes... i just analogize it with putt putt or par-3 as compared to regiular golf. i also believe that it takes much more skill to play on a 9 footer. i hardly ever play on bar boxes (hate them) but when i do i can hold my own with guys who have won divisions in vegas. but if you put us on a 9 foot table, i can spot them the 5, 7, and the breaks. that being said.. i'm not going to bash or degrade a smaller table or the people that play on them... i think bar boxes are great for the game because they have the ability to fit it much smaller spaces, such as bars and what have you... which in turn allows more people to experience and enjoy playing pool. probably this alone has allowed bar boxes to make pool one of the widely played games in the nation, which is a great thing. but like i said in the beginning... a 9 footer seperates the men from the boys :)
 
branpureza said:
i personally have a strong dislike for playing on bar boxes... i just analogize it with putt putt or par-3 as compared to regiular golf. i also believe that it takes much more skill to play on a 9 footer. but like i said in the beginning... a 9 footer seperates the men from the boys :)
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I too prefer the 9' tables over the bar boxes. What surprises me is that we have monthly 9-ball tournaments here in Colorado, in which the strongest players in the state all compete on bar boxes instead of the 9' tables. :eek:
:mad:
 
What are the things that make a 9-footer harder? The distance of the shots? That may be true, but what about the congestion factor of a bar box? You may have longer shots on a 9-footer, but at least you can see the ball to hit it. To you, John, what else makes a 9-footer more challenging?
 
My 2 Cents....

I decided I wanted to get serious about this game a year ago. It happened after I went into the local bar and got my ass handed to me on a barbox......
I bought a cue and I started going to the local pool hall to practice. The pool hall has both 9' and 7' tables. I chose to play on the beautiful 9' Gabriel with big drop pockets that were tight 2 ball pockets. I spent a good month in there mostly by myself trying to put a game together so I could go back to the barbox and beat everybody.....It is suprizingly hard to get a nongambling game in a poolhall unless you bring a friend with you.
There are several places in my area that offer free pool, and others that cost a buck a game. The free tables are where the competition is always the stiffest.

I love to go to the pool hall and play on that Gabriel, it's got new felt and is in pristine condition. The balls are always clean and there's always a fresh cube of chalk or 2. The barboxes are generally dirty with dirty balls and fragments of chalk, some are better than others, and they all get a lot of use. I would equate it to practicing in a controlled classroom environment (poolhall 9') and playing in the real world (dirty barboxes).

There is nothing funnier to me than having someone tell me there is a lot of green in that shot, on a barbox, after I've been warming up on the big table with the tight like a virgin pockets.

Bottom line.... they are both real pool with different challenges. I also thing different sized tables are suited to different games.

McCue Banger McCue
 
Dhakala said:
The extra 2x1 feet on a 9-footer make little difference. It's the inconsistency of bar boxes' quality that makes them more challenging overall. Bring me any player who is used to Simonis on a Gold Crown, let me choose the bar box, and we'll see who the joke is upon.
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Where do you rank in the pecking order around Denver?
 
hi

you know since i was dumb enough to say bar pool is a joke ,people like whiteoak are getting mad at me.again im not saying you are a joke for playing on them ,which i have to play on them in some tourneys ,im just saying the bar table is a joke compared to 9ft.its just my opinion.and your right whiteoak your better than me because i dont have alot of money and you do lol.
 
john schmidt said:
,im just saying the bar table is a joke compared to 9ft.
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JS,
I'm going to have to throw in with BranPureza and JS. I was roped into playing a bar league this year. While it is a bunch of fun - it's not real pool, and the tables are a joke - totally different game from "real pool."

Realize that this is not the same as saying the players are a joke or that they can't play. Good players will congregate wherever there is money and competition (we have several pro's in the league); and they will do very well, even if the table is dinky.

On the other hand, there is a guy in the league who thinks he is as good as Johnny Archer every time he runs out on the little table (he's about 5 balls below breakup) - he IS a joke. Bar table excellence is a very different thing than pool excellence - the 2 are NOT mutually exclusive.

P.S. - I have also had 3 different bar pool "studs" over to Betmore's Basement for some pool on the tight GCIV 9 footer. All thought they would be great; all turned out to be terrible (none were AZB'ers). Sometimes our estimates of prowess exceed reality (as breakup will find out in January).
 
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My apology

john schmidt said:
you know since i was dumb enough to say bar pool is a joke ,people like whiteoak are getting mad at me.again im not saying you are a joke for playing on them ,which i have to play on them in some tourneys ,im just saying the bar table is a joke compared to 9ft.its just my opinion.and your right whiteoak your better than me because i dont have alot of money and you do lol.
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John,My last comment on the subject,i promise.I am not mad and shouldnt have even responded,it was late and i was tired and cranky.I apologize and certainly dont think i am better than you or any one else,we just disagreed.Most everybody on here could eat me alive on a pool table(any size),i just like to play.As for having a lot of money,i wish that were true but unfortunately not.Anyway i just wanted to publicly apologize for being so argumentative.Mike S.
 
I was laughing reading John's description, and I feel like cryin when I read about how many areas of the country have been taken over by this easy, fast-food, Wal-Martization of the game, the evil bar-box menace!

Don't care how many otherwise good players waste their time on the things ... it's still like riding with training wheels.

When I'm bored and having a few beers and end up pumping my quarters in, all I really would like to do is give a player or two some idea of how to go about learning to play the game for real ... like a couple of players did for me, years ago.
 
ledrums said:
What are the things that make a 9-footer harder? The distance of the shots? That may be true, but what about the congestion factor of a bar box? You may have longer shots on a 9-footer, but at least you can see the ball to hit it. To you, John, what else makes a 9-footer more challenging?
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The biggest factor, (on most 9 ftrs) is that you have to hit the pocket. On most bar tables, you can miss the pocket by a foot and it still goes.
I can't count the times in my life I have heard about bar table action invoving the bar table player and tha "Big Table" player and they always say, "he doesn't play on bar tables". Still, on most occasions, the big table player wins, just because he is the better player. The adjustment from big to little is really not that big of a deal. Once you catch onto the break, it's pretty easy.
 
My observation...

I have to follow suite with JS on his opinion of 9footers.

My opinion is that most average pool players can run-out 9-ball on a 7-foot table. Maybe not consistently, but can do this feat on occasion. Not to knock anyone that enjoys bar-box pool, but there truly is a difference.

The same player that can run-out on a bar-box normally can not on a 9-footer. My opinion. 9-footers require different angles, better eyesight, a better stroke, and most importantly a STRAIGHT STROKE. I have watched time and time again players that can run 3-7 racks of 9-ball on a 7-footer not be able to make 2 balls on a 9-footer.


Bar tables with the shorter length ofcourse tightens up the shooting area, but at the same time shortens the margin of error. Considering on both tables you have the identical shot set-up in appoximately the same position. Now knowing you have to make the ball and get position on the next ball. Here is where the marginal errors start to play into the game.
Eye Sight----you now have to look almost 2-foot further away to see the pocket entry point.

Angles----you now have to adjust to the shot's cut point and variations of rail contacts.

Stroke----you now have to have a stroke(where as on a bar-box you really do not) to move to cue ball at the proper speed with the correct english to position the cue ball properly.

STRAIGHT STROKE----this is the most important factor. On a bar box you can get away with murder while having the worlds worst stroke. this is due to the shorter distances to pocket entry. You will see many(not all) bar table players miss balls consistenly by 1-3inches on long green shots on a 9-footer. This is due to the fact of not having a consistent straight stroke.


Now I will emphasize that this is MY OPINION. Take it as you will.

To me 7-footers allow some to play pool, and yes it is still pool. However, the imperfections in one's pool game will never be noticed playing on them. Pool is about becoming the best. Just like every other sport.
 
ironman said:
The biggest factor, (on most 9 ftrs) is that you have to hit the pocket. On most bar tables, you can miss the pocket by a foot and it still goes.
I can't count the times in my life I have heard about bar table action invoving the bar table player and tha "Big Table" player and they always say, "he doesn't play on bar tables". Still, on most occasions, the big table player wins, just because he is the better player. The adjustment from big to little is really not that big of a deal. Once you catch onto the break, it's pretty easy.
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Fundamental difference there. I'm pretty sure you are talking about a "good" short table player playing a "very good" big table player. Hence the comment about "He doesn't play on the bar tables". That's a whole different thing.

I am talking about a player that can consistently put together 6-7 racks on the barbox. Not every pro can do it. It actually takes precise cue ball control. As good as everyone plays on bar boxes, some do play much better. You might only have to play one precise position shot in a match on a barbox, but you damn well better make that position play, because if you don't, the other guy will run three more racks on you.

Look at it like this... You can get away with 1, maybe two mistakes in a race to 9 on a tight 9 footer. You usually can't on a barbox. The first player that makes a mistake usually loses.

You can say what you want, but I think depending on who you are playing, barboxes take just as much skill as the 9 footers.

(And for the record, yes, I HAVE seen some really good 9 footer players who did not easily make the adjustment to the barbox. They did not have the adjustment skills to "reel in" their stroke.)

Russ
 
Snap9 said:
To me 7-footers allow some to play pool, and yes it is still pool. However, the imperfections in one's pool game will never be noticed playing on them. Pool is about becoming the best. Just like every other sport.
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Cool. Then let's change the pro game to 12 foot tables with pool shaped pockets. Because that will make the game "better".

Not different.. "Better"....right?

I see a lot of people on here commenting on the bar boxes without having been in an area where great players compete on them. There are some fundamental differences in bar table play that DO take some adjustment. Some players can, some players cannot make this adjustment.

For one thing, you have to execute kill shots with MUCH less room to work with. I have watched a lot of pro matches from Accu-Stats, and SOME pros just don't kill the ball as well as others. Johnny Archer is one that can kill the ball and get position from being in really tight amongst the balls.

For all you naysayers, that say "What good player started out on the barboxes?" Johnny Archer is one. I might even go so far to say that he might have learned his tight patterns on a barbox. Somebody who has contact with him should ask him.

I don't care what you guys say, "consistent" bar box play requires much tighter patterns than the 9 footer. The 9 footers require better pocketing ability. Okay.. So they are two different games. The same players win pretty much whether they are on barboxes or 9 footers.

So I don't see where the beef is. If barbox play was good enough for Johnny Archer and Buddy Hall to start out with, what's your problem with it?

Russ
 
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