I putting 4 Diamond Smarttables with Pro-cut pockets in a local bar in Huntington Beach CA. This bar has 14 APA leagues. I was wondering if its an advantage for the home teams to have tight pockets, in regards to the rating system.
Bar Leagues and tight pockets
- Thread starter Donny Wessels
- Start date
Tight pockets have an "advantage" of..when you hit the object at "make" speed, and mishit it a litle bit, the object hangs up and blocks the opponents balls from going in that pocket.
Sandbaggers will always find a way to manipulate the system...
That being said, generally, the only advantage tight pockets give is that it trains the local team to shoot straighter, and therefore, they tend to beat other team more consistently.
Russ
Sandbaggers will always find a way to manipulate the system...
That being said, generally, the only advantage tight pockets give is that it trains the local team to shoot straighter, and therefore, they tend to beat other team more consistently.
Russ
my 2 cents
it will help their ball pocketing but tight pockets scare some players into not playing certain shots 4 fear of hanging it and not using the whole pocket on tables with standard pockets. so with that said Its a trade off of some sorts .My pockets r shimmed and its hard to string racks which has a bearing on ur confidence.Never hurts to practice on great equipment tho Peteypooldude
it will help their ball pocketing but tight pockets scare some players into not playing certain shots 4 fear of hanging it and not using the whole pocket on tables with standard pockets. so with that said Its a trade off of some sorts .My pockets r shimmed and its hard to string racks which has a bearing on ur confidence.Never hurts to practice on great equipment tho Peteypooldude
Donny IMHO playing on tables with tight pockets is an advantage. This advantage is not immediate, it takes awhile of playing to get your confidence. Once players are no longer intimidated or scared of cheating pockets to get shape their game starts to get better then ever. The visiting team may never play on those tables enough to get the time required to shoot with conviction.
I own a room in Lakewood, Washington and I certainly think it is a home team advantage. The tables I have set up for league play have 4 1/2 in corners and 5 in sides, and according to my teams it certainly gives them an advantage. First the other teams that play my teams at home have a hard time with the pockets, and since my teams also use my place for team practice there also have the advantage when playing on tables with large pockets.
I currently have 8 APA and 5 BCA teams playing out of my room, the APA teams play on 8 ft tables with Simonis 860 HR cloth, and my BCA Teams play on 9 ft tables with the same cloth.
I think what you are doing is the best thing you can do for the teams and the game.
Happy New Year
the way the format for APA in my area is one home game and then away. Since the home team is playing on tougher tables every other week, they will miss more shots, therefore keeping their handicap rating score lower. basically the same as a sand-bagger missing one shot a game. I don't think the apa rating is based on winning or losing but how many innings are needed to a play a game.
IMHO, the "cut" of the pocket is more important than the size
sdbilliards:
I have to agree that in the longer term, tighter pockets will help the home teams. *HOWEVER* (you knew this was coming, right?), if I'm not mistaken, Pro-Cut pockets are not only tighter, but are cut slightly differently so that there's more of a difference in the pocket's aperture (i.e. the knuckles or cushion corners of the pocket) as opposed to the pocket's throat where the slate ends. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, Pro-Cut pockets are more "V"-shaped than straight-cut. This "V"-shape will tend to spit-out hard-struck balls more often than a standard straight-cut, especially on shots down the rail/cushion into the corner pockets.
The problem I see with Pro-Cut pockets, is that your home teams will develop a slight leeriness towards firm-/hard-struck shots into those pockets (discounting, of course, the strategy of blocking those pockets from the opponent by hanging the object ball there). This problem could turn out to be a disadvantage for the home teams if they have to play "Away," because when playing on tables with standard-cut pockets, they might subconsciously shy away from firm shots into the corner pockets, when that particular shot is easily makeable on that equipment, giving that foreign-venue's home team the advantage.
Rather than Pro-Cut, why not opt for a standard cut, but merely a smaller pocket aperture? Also, in line with tighter pocket apertures, if I'm not mistaken, RKC (realkingcobra) does a fantastic job of "cushion extension" into the pocket, rather than shimming the cushion, the latter of which introduces slight anomalies in how the cushion reacts.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
P.S.: I'm vacationing in Denver at the moment, and I snapped-off the Greenfields year-end 9-ball tournament last night in a New Year's celebration-packed house. I didn't have my cues with me (I didn't travel with them this time), so I pulled a "Wall-abushka" off the wall, and used that. I found the pockets on these barboxes looked like buckets to me, because I'm used to tight (but standard-cut) pockets on a big table, and found it comfortable and easy going on these standard-cut/standard-size aperture pockets on these well-maintained tables here at Greenfields. I mention this, to illustrate the benefits of being-used-to/practicing-with tight pockets. Methinks the cut of the pocket is more important than the size (just my humble opinion).
sdbilliards:
I have to agree that in the longer term, tighter pockets will help the home teams. *HOWEVER* (you knew this was coming, right?), if I'm not mistaken, Pro-Cut pockets are not only tighter, but are cut slightly differently so that there's more of a difference in the pocket's aperture (i.e. the knuckles or cushion corners of the pocket) as opposed to the pocket's throat where the slate ends. In other words, if I'm not mistaken, Pro-Cut pockets are more "V"-shaped than straight-cut. This "V"-shape will tend to spit-out hard-struck balls more often than a standard straight-cut, especially on shots down the rail/cushion into the corner pockets.
The problem I see with Pro-Cut pockets, is that your home teams will develop a slight leeriness towards firm-/hard-struck shots into those pockets (discounting, of course, the strategy of blocking those pockets from the opponent by hanging the object ball there). This problem could turn out to be a disadvantage for the home teams if they have to play "Away," because when playing on tables with standard-cut pockets, they might subconsciously shy away from firm shots into the corner pockets, when that particular shot is easily makeable on that equipment, giving that foreign-venue's home team the advantage.
Rather than Pro-Cut, why not opt for a standard cut, but merely a smaller pocket aperture? Also, in line with tighter pocket apertures, if I'm not mistaken, RKC (realkingcobra) does a fantastic job of "cushion extension" into the pocket, rather than shimming the cushion, the latter of which introduces slight anomalies in how the cushion reacts.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
P.S.: I'm vacationing in Denver at the moment, and I snapped-off the Greenfields year-end 9-ball tournament last night in a New Year's celebration-packed house. I didn't have my cues with me (I didn't travel with them this time), so I pulled a "Wall-abushka" off the wall, and used that. I found the pockets on these barboxes looked like buckets to me, because I'm used to tight (but standard-cut) pockets on a big table, and found it comfortable and easy going on these standard-cut/standard-size aperture pockets on these well-maintained tables here at Greenfields. I mention this, to illustrate the benefits of being-used-to/practicing-with tight pockets. Methinks the cut of the pocket is more important than the size (just my humble opinion).
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Where & When are they going in Donnie??
Shooters or The Pen.
Heck with the APA Bangers, I can't wait to go Play on them.:grin-square:
I am sure us locals will get a weekly tournament going on them on a league off night. :grin-square: Thanks for the Good news.
Shooters or The Pen.
Heck with the APA Bangers, I can't wait to go Play on them.:grin-square:
I am sure us locals will get a weekly tournament going on them on a league off night. :grin-square: Thanks for the Good news.
Most definitely. The harder the table is will result in more innings. If innings are used in determining hdcp then , yes they will have an advantage.
Your teams will have the advantage over other teams who usually play on Valleys and Dynamos, and you will probably hear some griping from visiting players. It's not only that the pockets on Diamonds are tighter, the slate bed goes into the pockets farther, and those hard shots that a lot of players like to shoot will hit the pocket and spit right back out.
I agree with everyone who said yes for the exact same reasons as well as your own.
North side bars here with APA teams have been doing this (Tightening pockets) for years.
Shooters or The Pen.
Heck with the APA Bangers, I can't wait to go Play on them.:grin-square:
I am sure us locals will get a weekly tournament going on them on a league off night. :grin-square: Thanks for the Good news.
The tables are going into Shooters. I have two there now and two more on Wednesday. We are running a weekly tournament on Saturdays, starting at 2pm, first tournament on Jan-16. We haven't decided exactly but plan to put at least 80% entry fees into the pot. With 4 tables we plan on the capacity being 30+.
Thanks Donnie, I will go over later and try them out.
Will you be running the tournament? 8-Ball? What rules?
APA NOT I hope. HB pocket money mens league rules maybe.
Joe Barrios is running the tournament. It will be either Modified APA or BCA rules. We also welcome A level players but there will be a handicap and the winner can't return for 2 weeks. I will be participating, hopefully I will learn something about running a tournament.
Hey Donnie
I went and shot on the tables for a while this afternoon. While the corner pockets where tight, the deeper shelf was also what I noticed.
What did surprize me was the side pockets. They are actually larger then those on the Valley Cougar that was still there.
Wondering if the Dymond pro-cut side pockets are smaller than the league cut side pockets or is it just the corners that are different??
I went and shot on the tables for a while this afternoon. While the corner pockets where tight, the deeper shelf was also what I noticed.
What did surprize me was the side pockets. They are actually larger then those on the Valley Cougar that was still there.
Wondering if the Dymond pro-cut side pockets are smaller than the league cut side pockets or is it just the corners that are different??
poolbreak
Registered
and when in higher level tournaments at the end of the league year playing on loose equipment they risk dis-qualification shoud there skill levels go up more than one level.
Other than playing a few games every other week on the same table I don't know if there is an advantage. I play on a few different leagues and I don't know of any player on any of the teams that plays of practices at the home table other than on league night.
I feel if a player can aim he can make a ball in the pocket. If he uses one of those aiming or shooting gimmick systems than he may have a problem.
I would love having nice Diamond tables at every bar. The problem is a bar wants the tables to be easy. That means more balls are made, that means more games and that results in more money.
On the other hand having a nice table may result in action by the serious and money players
I feel if a player can aim he can make a ball in the pocket. If he uses one of those aiming or shooting gimmick systems than he may have a problem.
I would love having nice Diamond tables at every bar. The problem is a bar wants the tables to be easy. That means more balls are made, that means more games and that results in more money.
On the other hand having a nice table may result in action by the serious and money players
what's nice about the Diamond tables is faster play and lively cushions,its not uncommon to make several balls on the break, this speeds up the game too.