Bca lifts ban on phenolic tips

I think its cool that they manned up and corrected their mistake.

But I never changed and never had it questioned either so no biggie either way.

I'll add IMO, control is about hitting the CB where you intend to, not about what tip you have on there. If you have control problems with phenolic, it might suit you in the long run to correct your stroke problems rather than try and cover it up with a bandaid.
 
RRfireblade said:
I think its cool that they manned up and corrected their mistake.

But I never changed and never had it questioned either so no biggie either way.

I'll add IMO, control is about hitting the CB where you intend to, not about what tip you have on there. If you have control problems with phenolic, it might suit you in the long run to correct your stroke problems rather than try and cover it up with a bandaid.
Click to expand...

Nothin' better than a straight swing, makes me think of Buddy Hall and the coke bottle.
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
Just to avoid confusion - this rule change is for the BCAPL, not the BCA. The BCA Rule Book (under "equipment specifications") still states:

"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed."

So for BCA or WPA events you still need a leather tip. BCAPL and BCA are completely different entities.

This is one of those rules that can cause problems at events. The tourney officials do not inspect every cue that comes in the room. So it is up to an opponent to protest a competitors cue tip (or dress code or other such violation). And this MUST be done prior to the opening break of the match. You CANNOT wait until you are down 8-3 in a race to 9 to protest the other guys tip. If you let him break the very first rack then you have accepted his use of that equipment and you cannot protest later. To do so may land you in hot water as that may be considered unsportsmanlike conduct.

Frankly, I always consider those who try to protest equipment or dress after they are down in a match to be 'lawyers' and not pool players. These folks figure if they cannot win with their cue stick then they will do whatever is required to win by another means.
Click to expand...

A couple of years ago the WPA verbally told us (BCA Pool League) that phenolic tips were not legal per the World Standardized Rules. We changed our rules to reflect that, although the language we used was precise in that anything other than leather was not legal.

As Jerry stated, there is a problem with enforcement for a couple of reasons:

A. We are not scientists. Many tips look like leather when in fact they are not.
B. It is impossible to check every break cue at events, especially at the BCAPL National Championships, where we had 242 tournament tables.
C. Players can use the rule to try to gain an advantage by waiting until the appropriate moment to call an official to check the tip of their opponent.

We feel that it is best to change the rule back at this time. In the future if we see that the tips are damaging the cue balls, we can deal with that at that time.

We had a legitimate reason at the time to outlaw phenolic tips. In one of our events, we had clear evidence that the cue balls were being damaged. After months of checking and experimenting, we were unable to tell for sure what the problem was as the damage seemed to stop at future events. We suspect that we may have gotten a bad batch of cue balls.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
 
Just to clarify, I don't think we made a 'mistake' - there will be a press release coming out that will explain things plus Bill Stock is preparing a response for this thread.

All we did was to revert BACK to the WSR rules - which say tip must be fibrous and pliable.

Mark Griffin



RRfireblade said:
I think its cool that they manned up and corrected their mistake.

But I never changed and never had it questioned either so no biggie either way.

I'll add IMO, control is about hitting the CB where you intend to, not about what tip you have on there. If you have control problems with phenolic, it might suit you in the long run to correct your stroke problems rather than try and cover it up with a bandaid.
Click to expand...
 
I break with leather... med to hard... not samsara hard... like a hard playing tip.. Kamui Black Hard or Triangles.

For jumping I use white diamonds with phenolic ferrules.
 
Bill S said:
. We suspect that we may have gotten a bad batch of cue balls.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
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That very well may be the case. Several years ago when I worked at a local pool room we had a batch of cue balls that would literally break in half after a break. I witnessed it on 3 occasions. Talk about some rules issues :smile:

Darryl
 
Bill S said:
A couple of years ago the WPA verbally told us (BCA Pool League) that phenolic tips were not legal per the World Standardized Rules. We changed our rules to reflect that, although the language we used was precise in that anything other than leather was not legal.

As Jerry stated, there is a problem with enforcement for a couple of reasons:

A. We are not scientists. Many tips look like leather when in fact they are not.
B. It is impossible to check every break cue at events, especially at the BCAPL National Championships, where we had 242 tournament tables.
C. Players can use the rule to try to gain an advantage by waiting until the appropriate moment to call an official to check the tip of their opponent.

We feel that it is best to change the rule back at this time. In the future if we see that the tips are damaging the cue balls, we can deal with that at that time.

We had a legitimate reason at the time to outlaw phenolic tips. In one of our events, we had clear evidence that the cue balls were being damaged. After months of checking and experimenting, we were unable to tell for sure what the problem was as the damage seemed to stop at future events. We suspect that we may have gotten a bad batch of cue balls.

Bill Stock
CueSports International
Click to expand...

I've been breaking with phenolic tips for about 8 months now, and have definitely seen damage to cue balls that I suspect are from the tips. My home cue ball (Aramith measles ball from a TV tourney set), my 'travel' cue ball (red dot that I use for league sometimes), and the old cue ball from my work table all show identical 'half moon' cracks. They can't be felt, but you can see them in the ball.

The damage doesn't seem to alter the characteristics of the balls at all, since they seem to be below the surface (though still visible).
 
Mark Griffin said:
Just to clarify, I don't think we made a 'mistake' - there will be a press release coming out that will explain things plus Bill Stock is preparing a response for this thread.

All we did was to revert BACK to the WSR rules - which say tip must be fibrous and pliable.

Mark Griffin
Click to expand...

I thought I understood it but now I'm a little confused, Mark. From Bill Stock's post I got that phenolic is now legal. In the "significant changes" section of the new rule book it says that the restriction on phenolic tips has been removed - again indicating that they are now legal.

But you just said all you have done is revert back to the WPA rules, and Bill stated the WPA had communicated to you that phenolic tips were NOT legal. This would mean phenolic is still NOT legal per BCAPL rules.

So now it seems a little unclear. Please clarify, are phenolic tips legal in BCAPL play?
 
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Jerry Forsyth said:
Just to avoid confusion - this rule change is for the BCAPL, not the BCA. The BCA Rule Book (under "equipment specifications") still states:

"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed."

So for BCA or WPA events you still need a leather tip. BCAPL and BCA are completely different entities.

This is one of those rules that can cause problems at events. The tourney officials do not inspect every cue that comes in the room. So it is up to an opponent to protest a competitors cue tip (or dress code or other such violation). And this MUST be done prior to the opening break of the match. You CANNOT wait until you are down 8-3 in a race to 9 to protest the other guys tip. If you let him break the very first rack then you have accepted his use of that equipment and you cannot protest later. To do so may land you in hot water as that may be considered unsportsmanlike conduct.

Frankly, I always consider those who try to protest equipment or dress after they are down in a match to be 'lawyers' and not pool players. These folks figure if they cannot win with their cue stick then they will do whatever is required to win by another means.
Click to expand...

If Phenolic was tested and caused no harm it is legal in WPA or BCA due to the fact it is pliable... I've been arguing against the ban for ages for this very reasoning...

The only cue balls I have seen damaged by phenolic are the cheap knockoffs out of china... You can get the knockoffs in red circle or measles variety and likely others...

I had one of the knockoffs and would put a stress fracture that looked like a smile on the ball every time I broke with phenolic...

I have 1 smile on my Aramith measles I have been using for awhile now and it very well could have come from hitting something metal as it has been sent off the table many times in many places......
 
I'll say that my cue balls are all basically guaranteed to be genuine. They all came in Aramith packaging and were ordered from reputable shops. The "smile" crack is a good way to describe what I have.

I don't know about the cue ball at work, but I'm pretty sure my home ball has only been off the table a handful of times, and always comes in contact with a wood floor, not metal.
 
Please see Bill Stock's response:

A. We are not scientists. Many tips look like leather when in fact they are not.
B. It is impossible to check every break cue at events, especially at the BCAPL National Championships, where we had 242 tournament tables.


We do not have the ability to determine what is phenolic or what is not. (I think this rule will be debated for a long time) Since we cannot determine what material the tip is, we cannot make a consistent ruling.

Also keep in mind that 'phenolic' is more of a generic term for materials and covers a wider spectrum than just one particular tip.

I am not going to get into a lot of discussion on this because I am not a scientist and cannot speak properly to the topic.

I will say that I KNOW (because I saw it) that tips can cause damage to legitimate Aramith cue balls.

Hope this helps :D

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL



DogsPlayingPool said:
I thought I understood it but now I'm a little confused, Mark. From Bill Stock's post I got that phenolic is now legal. In the "significant changes" section of the new rule book it says that the restriction on phenolic tips has been removed - again indicating that they are now legal.

But you just said all you have done is revert back to the WPA rules, and Bill stated the WPA had communicated to you that phenolic tips were NOT legal. This would mean phenolic is still NOT legal per BCAPL rules.

So now it seems a little unclear. Please clarify, are phenolic tips legal in BCAPL play?
Click to expand...
 
Bill S said:
--snip--
A. We are not scientists. Many tips look like leather when in fact they are not.
B. It is impossible to check every break cue at events, especially at the BCAPL National Championships, where we had 242 tournament tables.
C. Players can use the rule to try to gain an advantage by waiting until the appropriate moment to call an official to check the tip of their opponent.

-snip-

Bill Stock
CueSports International
Click to expand...

A. But at least if you CAN tell, it should not be used.
B. Don't need to check before hand, have the refs do a quick check and tell the players that they can examine the opponents break cue BEFORE the set starts and call over a ref to check it if any question remains.
C. See above, make a rule that they need to check the break cue BEFORE they set starts not in the middle.
 
Mark Griffin said:
Please see Bill Stock's response:

A. We are not scientists. Many tips look like leather when in fact they are not.
B. It is impossible to check every break cue at events, especially at the BCAPL National Championships, where we had 242 tournament tables.


We do not have the ability to determine what is phenolic or what is not. (I think this rule will be debated for a long time) Since we cannot determine what material the tip is, we cannot make a consistent ruling.

Also keep in mind that 'phenolic' is more of a generic term for materials and covers a wider spectrum than just one particular tip.

I am not going to get into a lot of discussion on this because I am not a scientist and cannot speak properly to the topic.

I will say that I KNOW (because I saw it) that tips can cause damage to legitimate Aramith cue balls.

Hope this helps :D

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
Click to expand...


Even though I was just asking for a yes or no answer, I guess this helps. What I gather is that technically phenolic tips are illegal but you've made an official statement in the rules lifting the restriction, mainly because it is unenforceable.
 
i've had half moon cracks happen in various cue balls from breaking with phenolic tips. they were genuine aramith, so there were quality balls and from different batches. it only happens with some phenolic tips. like someone mentioned earlier, there are many grades and types of materials that we all call generically "phenolic". most don't damage balls, but i have run into the occasional one that does.
 
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