BCA Nationals 8 Ball - Fargo Discrepancy

[robsnotes4u]

Great conversation by all. Mike thanks for all your answers to hard, good questions.

Mark also thanks for being involved.



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[cleary]

In ten years, the data collected and the data available will be much more than now. FargoRate will be much more common and be used in ways we can't even imagine.

Mikes railroad analogy is accurate. Improvements will be constantly made and the product will improve. That is what I was referring to as 'in its infancy'

Some of these are a obvious (use it as a handicapping tool)-others aren't so obvious. The major area that will increase is data collection.

I never implied FargoRate was perfect. But more data will improve the accuracy of the system.

Hope this explains it more clearly.

Mark Griffin

I agree with this. It's not perfect but it as potential to be great. Mike should be a little more open minded and not assume everyone is stupid. As far as I can tell, he's not open to any suggestions. His fanboys should let him do the talking as well.

 

[robsnotes4u]

I agree with this. It's not perfect but it as potential to be great. Mike should be a little more open minded and not assume everyone is stupid. As far as I can tell, he's not open to any suggestions. His fanboys should let him do the talking as well.

II will let Mike do all the writing. He
Explains things the best. He answers every question asked, you just don't like the answers.

For the record that was an uncalled for statement about Mike. If Mike wanted you to look stupid he would put part of his math on here and ask you to pinpoint where it needs to be corrected, or have you explain it. Mike is not that type of person, he writes at a level for us all to understand, not talking above us


You need to read your statement while looking in the mirror.

I look forward to sitting around the table at the pool hall as we did last night laughing at you responses. Do you do not spew out some BS. Mike was not with us and wouldn't laugh. He would some analysis, if it want already done before to verify.

Cool thing in life. You don't need the approval of everyone.






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[mikepage]

[...] Mike should be a little more open minded and not assume everyone is stupid. As far as I can tell, he's not open to any suggestions. [...]

Cleary -

I mean no disrespect and I apologize if I have come across as closed to ideas or discussion. Please give me a blank slate and a new start on this. If you would be so kind as to detail the items you feel I have not addressed or not addressed adequately or respectfully, I will make the effort to do so.

 

[BRussell]

In the short time we have been working with CSI, our database has grown from 1.0 million games to 3.5 million games and we are only now introducing the LMS league management software that will bring games automatically in.

I think this will be key. My impression - please correct me if I'm wrong - is that most league games have not gone into the database. So this year lots of people go to Nationals but you still need to just guess at their rating. But by this time next year, if leagues input games this year, the number of guesses should decrease substantially. You'll have at least the dozens of games that each league player plays each season going in.

I wonder why you didn't get the league games in the system prior to using it in Nationals. Maybe getting the league games is harder than I think, or maybe Nationals was a good place to jump-start getting everyone familiar with the system.

 

[cardiac kid]

But if that player is someone like you, who legitimately plays--currently--at 655 speed, who played 11 matches this year in Platinum singles divisions, winning 7 matches and losing 4 matches, then it would be unfair to the players in the Gold division to have the player added. Surely you can appreciate this.

Mike,

We did speak in person. You had to leave in a hurry to play a match.

Perhaps you should have looked closer. In the nine ball I won two and lost two. Played to the very best of my ability. Got beat by two players who were better than I. One significantly. I've played in four consecutive National nine ball events without cashing.

In the eight ball, I lost my first match. Then, if I remember correctly, I received a bye (never lost to him), won a match, then received a forfeit (player misread the board) then lost my last match.

My figures say I won three and lost four. If your figures are correct, I must have won four matches I don't remember playing or you're counting byes which, in my view, is an error that needs to be corrected.

Still Mike, you haven't addressed my question of how someone in my position gets to drop a division. That is without "sandbagging". Yes, this is about my situation specifically. Yet there are hundreds of current and thousands of future players in my position. CSI and Fargo have to find a remedy for this situation. How many of those players will continue to attend?

We've seen this before. All you have to do is reseaarch the top forty two or so players who graduated to the Master event year after year after year. We both know the attendence dropped instead of increasing. Last year there were 28 players. I one, two buckle my shoe'd out of that event as well. Certainly not intentionally. Anyway, it appears I'm just beating a dead horse.

Lyn

 

[SWRLE]

Cleary -

I mean no disrespect and I apologize if I have come across as closed to ideas or discussion. Please give me a blank slate and a new start on this. If you would be so kind as to detail the items you feel I have not addressed or not addressed adequately or respectfully, I will make the effort to do so.

I too mean no disrespect to Fargo, CSI, Mark, Mike, Robert or anyone working hard to make pool better. I also apologize for any harsh comments about people ducking the questions or knowingly playing in the wrong division or people making honest mistakes. I am a Fargo supporter and BCA supporter who just spent thousands to play in the National Tournament and had a lot of fun. Can I have a clean slate too?

I would like to very respectfully ask two simple questions to CSI and Fargo:

1. If the Mixed Singles BCA tournament were held again tomorrow with the same players, what division(s) would Joe Pierce, Ron Mason, and Noah Vogelman play in?

2. How would that be determined in each of the above cases?

Thank you very much.

 

[watchez]

Curious.

How many games do you have in FargoRate? What is your rating? How long have you experienced it in your league?

I read such things as, "I would never lose to a 400", and "no male should be given a starter rating of 400".

I would guess a lot of people making such statements do not know what a 400 level player is.




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We don't use FargoRate in league. But if 400 is 173 points less than me, no man should start out as an 'unknown' player with this ranking. I tried to video a 400 level initial ranked player out there but I was too busy playing when he was to capture it.

Yes a man could be that low but to give him that ranking as a starter is a BIG mistake.

 

[JC]

I am president of our local league. How can I get step by step help in entering our league results into Fargo each week. I am not currently the person who enters our data to league sys each week but I do know how to do it. Our league secretary who does the data entering for us tells me it's too cumbersome to do currently for the sake of Fargorate. Is this correct? Or is there software that makes it easy that he's not aware of. We had a WBCA tournament at our local casino recently that we also did not enter into the Fargo system for the same reason. The results there would have had a dramatic effect on several players with low robustness that I can think of. So how do we get past this to do our share to help the project and pool.

Thanks,

JC

 

[SWRLE]

Mike,

We did speak in person. You had to leave in a hurry to play a match.

Perhaps you should have looked closer. In the nine ball I won two and lost two. Played to the very best of my ability. Got beat by two players who were better than I. One significantly. I've played in four consecutive National nine ball events without cashing.

In the eight ball, I lost my first match. Then, if I remember correctly, I received a bye (never lost to him), won a match, then received a forfeit (player misread the board) then lost my last match.

My figures say I won three and lost four. If your figures are correct, I must have won four matches I don't remember playing or you're counting byes which, in my view, is an error that needs to be corrected.

Still Mike, you haven't addressed my question of how someone in my position gets to drop a division. That is without "sandbagging". Yes, this is about my situation specifically. Yet there are hundreds of current and thousands of future players in my position. CSI and Fargo have to find a remedy for this situation. How many of those players will continue to attend?

We've seen this before. All you have to do is reseaarch the top forty two or so players who graduated to the Master event year after year after year. We both know the attendence dropped instead of increasing. Last year there were 28 players. I one, two buckle my shoe'd out of that event as well. Certainly not intentionally. Anyway, it appears I'm just beating a dead horse.

Lyn

Are you making an argument that people who haven't cashed for a long time in their division or haven't improved, or may actually be declining year over year, should be lowered into an easier division?

 

[jojopiff]

I am president of our local league. How can I get step by step help in entering our league results into Fargo each week. I am not currently the person who enters our data to league sys each week but I do know how to do it. Our league secretary who does the data entering for us tells me it's too cumbersome to do currently for the sake of Fargorate. Is this correct? Or is there software that makes it easy that he's not aware of. We had a WBCA tournament at our local casino recently that we also did not enter into the Fargo system for the same reason. The results there would have had a dramatic effect on several players with low robustness that I can think of. So how do we get past this to do our share to help the project and pool.

Thanks,

JC

I also run a league and would like to know exactly what I need to do to get this info entered.

I also play in the league so can I enter the info or is that a sort of conflict of interest?

 

[sbpoolleague]

In ten years, the data collected and the data available will be much more than now. FargoRate will be much more common and be used in ways we can't even imagine.

Mikes railroad analogy is accurate. Improvements will be constantly made and the product will improve. That is what I was referring to as 'in its infancy'

Several have misinterpreted my statement. I did not say the method was incorrect or data was inaccurate-I was saying improvements in applications of this data will come over the years.
Some of these are a obvious (use it as a handicapping tool)-others aren't so obvious. The major area that will increase is data collection.

I never implied FargoRate was perfect. But more data will improve the accuracy of the system.

Hope this explains it more clearly.

Mark Griffin

Mark,

The single most important thing to do that will ensure the success of Fargo ratings is to limit entry into the Nationals' Fargo divisions to those players with a minimum "robustness".

Perhaps next year this minimum could be less than the 200 game threshold so that unknown players have a reasonable chance to get their games in.

Of course to implement this two other things must happen immediately:
1. The new LMS software needs to roll out
2. CSI must broadcast this new requirement to all players

I will happily volunteer my services to any league operator that has tons of game data but limited knowledge of how to extract and format the data so it can be inserted into Fargo.

Contact me (Chris Ackler) at sbpoolleague@cox.net if you have historical league data and need help.

 

[gutshot]

..........

 

[cardiac kid]

Are you making an argument that people who haven't cashed for a long time in their division or haven't improved, or may actually be declining year over year, should be lowered into an easier division?

Perhaps being considered to be lowered might be more accurate. Problem is there is no such mechanism anymore. How many years should an average player in their Fargo determined division play and lose before they quit playing BCAPL Nationals due to frustration? It just appears to me no one at CSI / Fargo seems to have thought about this problem. Sure, they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist but the significant drop in entries over the past several years can not be totally blamed on either the Rio or the July dates.

Lyn

 

[watchez]

Perhaps being considered to be lowered might be more accurate. Problem is there is no such mechanism anymore. How many years should an average player in their Fargo determined division play and lose before they quit playing BCAPL Nationals due to frustration? It just appears to me no one at CSI / Fargo seems to have thought about this problem. Sure, they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist but the significant drop in entries over the past several years can not be totally blamed on either the Rio or the July dates.

Lyn

Lyn - you have had some pretty good success over the years at the BCAPL. Guess how many of 1000s go and each year have no chance.

PMGB

 

[BRussell]

Getting moved into a lower division by a buddy who runs the tournament sounds exactly like the kind of thing the new system is supposed to stop.

 

[skip100]

Being ranked in the middle of a group isn't unfair. It's normal. This is not a problem that needs to be solved.

 

[SWRLE]

Being ranked in the middle of a group isn't unfair. It's normal. This is not a problem that needs to be solved.

Actually it's an interesting marketing question. We see customer retention incentives all the time when a business is concerned about loss its customer base or is trying to capture some new target customer. 2nd chance tournaments being an example. Certainly not something Fargo would try to address beyond the natural evolution of ratings. And of course letting higher ratings into lower brackets might be taken poorly by those customers.

 

[BRussell]

Being ranked in the middle of a group isn't unfair. It's normal. This is not a problem that needs to be solved.

And group cut offs are bound to change from year to year, so who's to say one would be in the middle next year?

 

[SWRLE]

Mark,

The single most important thing to do that will ensure the success of Fargo ratings is to limit entry into the Nationals' Fargo divisions to those players with a minimum "robustness".

Perhaps next year this minimum could be less than the 200 game threshold so that unknown players have a reasonable chance to get their games in.

Of course to implement this two other things must happen immediately:
1. The new LMS software needs to roll out
2. CSI must broadcast this new requirement to all players

I will happily volunteer my services to any league operator that has tons of game data but limited knowledge of how to extract and format the data so it can be inserted into Fargo.

Contact me (Chris Ackler) at sbpoolleague@cox.net if you have historical league data and need help.

Lowering the robustness requirement encourages sandbagging and barring unestablished players altogether would probably destroy participation. Why not simply drop starter ratings and put unestablished players in the divisions where they belong?