Beat Fats?

[jay helfert]

I think Walderone had it wrong. It wasn't Tevis who used him as a basis for Minnesota Fats. I think it was Gleason. They were both from New York and both hung out in pool halls and probably knew each other, or at least, knew of each other. Many of Gleason's mannerisms in the film were similar to Walderone's, particularly a neck twitch.

Very astute observation here Fran. Gleason and Fats were hanging out in NYC poolrooms during the same time period. I always wondered about that twitch. It made me think that Tevis or Gleason had to know Fats. I was friends with Tevis and he absolutely swore he had never seen Fat's play. In fact he modeled his character more on Eddie Taylor who he did see play in Louisville.

Unlike Cruise, Gleason could play! Danny D. used to play 14.1 with him in Florida and Jackie could still put a couple of racks together.

 

[Runner]

Minnesota Fats said of Ronnie Allen, "Anybody who plays him for money ain't got no chance at all."

 

[FranCrimi]

Ever read the original incarnation of the Hustler story from Playboy magazine in 1957?

The character who would become Minnesota Fats in the Hustler had a twitch. The story was slightly different, with the original character not being suave and smooth. He was a twitchy suspicious criminal type.

That's very interesting. So you're saying that Tevis wrote a short story that would eventually incarnate into The Hustler? Did he specifically refer to a neck or facial twitch? That was pretty much Fatty's trademark for as far back as I can remember. I think it's a Turrets-type thing, rather than something intentional, though.

 

[FranCrimi]

Very astute observation here Fran. Gleason and Fats were hanging out in NYC poolrooms during the same time period. I always wondered about that twitch. It made me think that Tevis or Gleason had to know Fats. I was friends with Tevis and he absolutely swore he had never seen Fat's play. In fact he modeled his character more on Eddie Taylor who he did see play in Louisville.

Unlike Cruise, Gleason could play! Danny D. used to play 14.1 with him in Florida and Jackie could still put a couple of racks together.

Yup. And it wasn't until after the film came out and he saw Gleason's performance that Fatty changed his name.

 

[9 Ball Fan]

Dean could probably know for sure but I don't think Fats ever had a job. Fats owned a home and drove a nice car.

How many of you current champs can say the same?

By the time he was playing Mosconi on "Wide World of Sports", Fats was well past his prime and Mosconi was in the same boat.

Mosconi still had plenty enough in the tank to whip.Fats pretty easily. People loved Fats for his theatrics.

 

[9 Ball Fan]

Fats was put in the HOF for Meritorious Service and not as a great player.
I’m sure he could play at a high level but probably could never compete with the best.


View attachment 532099

His performance in the courtroom after Jonhson City's bust, was enough to earn him some respect with the other pro players.

 

[9 Ball Fan]

Fats was a whiz at bank shots. He could see the angles. I would not have bet against him making bank shots.

 

[ShootingArts]

yes, I agree

Hu, appreciated your post very much with one tiny disagreement-I would put Fats earnings at above middle class for that time in history.

I was a kid in the forties. Very few guys carried a wad like Fats and banks weren't trusted because of what happened with bank closures in the Depression.

He was upper middle class or better, financially.

Yes I agree, his earnings were above most middle class earnings. "Middle class" covers a wide range and I let it go at "very solid middle class" but one of his quirks was about his Caddies. He bought new Cadillacs and when he was done with one he just parked it and bought another rather than trading or selling the old one. That's pretty strong. He also carried a very nice roll at all times, another reason he matched up to suit himself. You want a shot at a fat bankroll bad enough you eventually find yourself in a game you shouldn't be in!

I had to laugh about the "color" vignettes on Wide World of Sports. Houses were pretty similar but Willie drove a top of the line Lincoln from the looks of things, Fats the big Caddy. Both fine fine road machines in their day, hard to say either was better but even in cars they clashed, Ford or GM!

Hu

 

[Tommy-D]

In the time I spent with the late Grady Mathews,he basically tells it the way Jay described it,his real strength was generating action/hype,and entertainment as opposed to his actual game.

"Don't get me wrong,he beat everyone I ever saw him play that he was SUPPOSED to beat,like if a cocky young buck openly challenged him but was inexperienced,or a solid player that maybe got out of line and offered him a ball when it wasn't needed. Most people couldn't have dealt with his mouth,as he was an artist when it came to sharking and nonsense. As far as him dealing with the real players there were always 20-30 around this country that would have swam a river of dogshit to play him if the money was right,myself included". Tommy D.

 

[RiverCity]

That's very interesting. So you're saying that Tevis wrote a short story that would eventually incarnate into The Hustler? Did he specifically refer to a neck or facial twitch? That was pretty much Fatty's trademark for as far back as I can remember. I think it's a Turrets-type thing, rather than something intentional, though.

Yes to both questions. It can be difficult to find the story, but Bob Byrne reprinted it in his book, Byrne's Book of Great Pool Stories.

 

[pt109]

His performance in the courtroom after Jonhson City's bust, was enough to earn him some respect with the other pro players.

Good point....in the action days....Fatty had a lot of respect.
Sometimes a room would be full of gamblers looking to make a game....
...but nobody could negotiate a match....when Fatty would show up....
...there’d be a bunch of games made....they needed him...to start the jamboree.

It wasn’t always roses for even a man like him...war years...Norfolk...Fatty loses all his
$$$ at a crap game...he walked miles back to his hotel in a snowstorm....
...his buddies kept trying to pick him up...wouldn’t get in...wouldn’t say a word.

 

[9andout]

Don't live in the Soldotna tourist trap, but close. LOL Not much happens in this hick town, I like it.

Soldotna does have a heck of a legacy with their high school foot ball team, like close to 8 years undefeated.

Sorry to sidetrack but you posted it.
Undefeated in Alaska??
Against WHO???????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[AkGuy]

All of them. LOL

Hey m9andout.

I think since 2012 Soldotna has lost one game and Saturday they will play in their 8th consecutive title game. Not bad for a town of around 4,700. Most Alaska towns are small and the talent pool to pick from is small.

I doubt any Alaska team in any sport would be on the winning side against some of the big schools down south.

Some of the rural villages do have some legendary free throw shooters, but their basket ball team is never winning any big events. Reason is some of the village kids have little in the way of sports and spend lots of time in the gym.

Far as pool goes, same thing. Not near the talent pool that is in the "states". Richie Orem is said to be Alaska's best ever player. He did win the Las Vegas open years ago. Another guy named Sean "Alaska" Morgan is from here, but has played out of New York for years. I didn't know him but know Richie, who I have never beat.

We have a guy I see once every few years at Anchorage tournaments. His name is Rob Martin. I think if he really committed and played more he has lots of potential. I have never beat him either. Him and my deceased nephew were high school friends, so Rob is always vey respectful to me when he kicks my butt on the pool table. LOL

 

[3kushn]

Yes I agree, his earnings were above most middle class earnings. "Middle class" covers a wide range and I let it go at "very solid middle class" but one of his quirks was about his Caddies. He bought new Cadillacs and when he was done with one he just parked it and bought another rather than trading or selling the old one. That's pretty strong. He also carried a very nice roll at all times, another reason he matched up to suit himself. You want a shot at a fat bankroll bad enough you eventually find yourself in a game you shouldn't be in!

I had to laugh about the "color" vignettes on Wide World of Sports. Houses were pretty similar but Willie drove a top of the line Lincoln from the looks of things, Fats the big Caddy. Both fine fine road machines in their day, hard to say either was better but even in cars they clashed, Ford or GM!

Hu

When I lived in his neighborhood, he owned 3 Caddi's. He normally drove the one with plates "MF1" Been too long to remember if there was MF2 & 3 but likely. I'd have to assume that keeping all his older cars wouldn't work, living in Dowel, IL. But maybe so. He regularly said he bought a new car anytime a bird flew over.

Most don't know his love for animals. There's a plaque at the Humane Society in Carbondale IL honoring him for this. People would dump cats and dogs near his home fairly regularly and he would take them all in. Story is he had $1000 vet bills even though the Vet gave him a break. Somebody has to pay for medications. Can't verify (Island Drive can) he claimed he built an addition to his house just for the animals. Fully furnished with couches, chairs, carpeting. His first wife claims he wouldn't allow her to kill a fly in the house.

Another thing, Fat's didn't require payment for charity causes and if it was to promote the game, he likely made a decision, depending on the circumstances.

I've told this before but again. He's at the Student Center @ SIU-Carbondale performing an exhibition, deep into all the shots you normally see from Fats. All of a sudden there's an announcement.

THE PERSON WHO OWNS A CADILLAC THAT'S PARKED ON THE SIDEWALK, NEEDS TO MOVE THAT CAR IMMEDIATELY OR IT WILL BE TOWED.

Fats stops shooting and says If my car gets towed, the mayor will be Dog Catcher by tomorrow morning.

I'll stop. It's getting too long

 

[ShootingArts]

Thank You!

When I lived in his neighborhood, he owned 3 Caddi's. He normally drove the one with plates "MF1" Been too long to remember if there was MF2 & 3 but likely. I'd have to assume that keeping all his older cars wouldn't work, living in Dowel, IL. But maybe so. He regularly said he bought a new car anytime a bird flew over.

Most don't know his love for animals. There's a plaque at the Humane Society in Carbondale IL honoring him for this. People would dump cats and dogs near his home fairly regularly and he would take them all in. Story is he had $1000 vet bills even though the Vet gave him a break. Somebody has to pay for medications. Can't verify (Island Drive can) he claimed he built an addition to his house just for the animals. Fully furnished with couches, chairs, carpeting. His first wife claims he wouldn't allow her to kill a fly in the house.

Another thing, Fat's didn't require payment for charity causes and if it was to promote the game, he likely made a decision, depending on the circumstances.

I've told this before but again. He's at the Student Center @ SIU-Carbondale performing an exhibition, deep into all the shots you normally see from Fats. All of a sudden there's an announcement.

THE PERSON WHO OWNS A CADILLAC THAT'S PARKED ON THE SIDEWALK, NEEDS TO MOVE THAT CAR IMMEDIATELY OR IT WILL BE TOWED.

Fats stops shooting and says If my car gets towed, the mayor will be Dog Catcher by tomorrow morning.

I'll stop. It's getting too long

Thanks for this inside scoop. Interesting to see a little behind the pool player and entertainer.

Hu

 

[Hunter]

Whether Fatty was a world beater or not, the man did something cool for me that I never forgot that happened five decades ago. When Fatty would play various exhibitions around the country, he would "autograph" one dollar bills with a stamp. I didn't realize he didn't read or write much.

I approached him and asked if he could sign, not stamp, a twenty dollar bill for me. At first he was a little reluctant. I told him it was for my brother's eighteenth birthday. He said that in that case, he would do it. It was then that I realized this was a chore for him. He scrawled out a shaky signature that my brother, who was a huge fan, would still have to this day, but unfortunately his house was broken into and his bill was never seen again. Fats was a champ in my book!

 

[jay helfert]

Hey m9andout.

I think since 2012 Soldotna has lost one game and Saturday they will play in their 8th consecutive title game. Not bad for a town of around 4,700. Most Alaska towns are small and the talent pool to pick from is small.

I doubt any Alaska team in any sport would be on the winning side against some of the big schools down south.

Some of the rural villages do have some legendary free throw shooters, but their basket ball team is never winning any big events. Reason is some of the village kids have little in the way of sports and spend lots of time in the gym.

Far as pool goes, same thing. Not near the talent pool that is in the "states". Richie Orem is said to be Alaska's best ever player. He did win the Las Vegas open years ago. Another guy named Sean "Alaska" Morgan is from here, but has played out of New York for years. I didn't know him but know Richie, who I have never beat.

We have a guy I see once every few years at Anchorage tournaments. His name is Rob Martin. I think if he really committed and played more he has lots of potential. I have never beat him either. Him and my deceased nephew were high school friends, so Rob is always vey respectful to me when he kicks my butt on the pool table. LOL

John DuClos played strong and so did Mark Tullis.

 

[jay helfert]

When I lived in his neighborhood, he owned 3 Caddi's. He normally drove the one with plates "MF1" Been too long to remember if there was MF2 & 3 but likely. I'd have to assume that keeping all his older cars wouldn't work, living in Dowel, IL. But maybe so. He regularly said he bought a new car anytime a bird flew over.

Most don't know his love for animals. There's a plaque at the Humane Society in Carbondale IL honoring him for this. People would dump cats and dogs near his home fairly regularly and he would take them all in. Story is he had $1000 vet bills even though the Vet gave him a break. Somebody has to pay for medications. Can't verify (Island Drive can) he claimed he built an addition to his house just for the animals. Fully furnished with couches, chairs, carpeting. His first wife claims he wouldn't allow her to kill a fly in the house.

Another thing, Fat's didn't require payment for charity causes and if it was to promote the game, he likely made a decision, depending on the circumstances.

I've told this before but again. He's at the Student Center @ SIU-Carbondale performing an exhibition, deep into all the shots you normally see from Fats. All of a sudden there's an announcement.

THE PERSON WHO OWNS A CADILLAC THAT'S PARKED ON THE SIDEWALK, NEEDS TO MOVE THAT CAR IMMEDIATELY OR IT WILL BE TOWED.

Fats stops shooting and says If my car gets towed, the mayor will be Dog Catcher by tomorrow morning.

I'll stop. It's getting too long

I was there and saw it for myself. He had a long line of kennels set up behind his house with old beat up furniture for the dogs to lay on and carpeting on the floors as well. I helped him feed the dogs one night, spreading two 5 gallon buckets full of hamburger meat along the driveway. When we were done he whistled real loud and dogs came running from every direction, maybe 20 or 30 of them. They lapped up the food and Fats gave them all a little pet and they went in back to the kennels to rest for the night.

His wife had a similar sanctuary for cats out back as well. He was the "humane society" for that area of Southern Illinois. He paid for all this out of his own pocket too. He was a lot more than "middle class." He was fairly well to do from his association with a major sports company (Ebonite or one of them like that) who made pool tables, cues and accessories with his name on them. Fats was basically illiterate but after someone like me read him a contract he knew just how to respond. He cut some lucrative deals for himself.

I feel so fortunate to have known him.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I just wanted to put forth the idea... That the Minnesota Fats from the movie, and Rudolph Wanderone might have owed a lot to each other. Without the real man, the character might not have been so popular.

So, to those who say that Fatty the man usurped the character, well... That might be so, but without the man himself, maybe "The Hustler" is just a cool pool movie, and the name "Minnesota Fats" would be unknown to the people who haven't seen the movie (which is most of the world, when you get right down to it...).

 

[RiverCity]

John DuClos played strong and so did Mark Tullis.

After Johnny left AK, he was the house pro at the Billiaraires club in WA for a while.

Mark passed some years back. I used to love playing him, he was a hell of a guy and a solid player.

Kent Andersson from Son of RiverCity always had the coolest tournament posters, and this one with Mark was always one of my favorites.

Richie still plays strong (it was Reno he won in 2005 or 6 IIRC), but the top guy up there right now is Mo Mataafa.