Beating a top 100 player in the world???

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
For sure. I think maybe the top 10 from the 60s could compete, but I don't think there's even a question that the top 100 today are better than the top 100 from any other time in history.

Jaden
No question there's more good players today. I'm not complaining about the cloth they are using, just saying that the game is played differently today because of it. Pool is more a game requiring a soft touch then the power game of yesteryear (but not always). It's all good! You still have to put the balls in the hole and get shape on the next ball.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Holding the show $$ for that match was almost as hard as playing and winning it ;-)

Yes, Mike -- you did yeoman's service.

He's been barking about a $30K rematch lately but I doubt your services will be needed.

Lou Figueroa
don't want to go
through all that
shit again
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And oh yes, I fergot -- I made Justin Bergman pull up.

This would have been like probably over 10 years ago but he was still known as the hot young gun in town. But anywhos, he comes into The Break across the river in Cahokia and I'm practicing on the money/pit table and he wants to play 1pocket for $20 a game and I say, "Sure." I win three in a row and be pulls up saying something like, "I don't want to do this anymore" and leaves.

It was a special moment but nowadays I'd need a considerable spot to even think about it.

Lou Figueroa
probably crush me
like a ripe grape
 
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L.S. Dennis

Active member
Good point here. The game has sure changed. During my generation, we used to always include who has the most powerful stroke when talking about the best players. I knew I would never get to the top because I couldn't do some things with the cue ball that the best players were able to do. My stroke was maybe only 50% of theirs. Consequently my shot selection was more limited if that makes sense.

I'm certain there are a lot of guys on here who play better than me now that I might have been competitve with 20 years ago. Last time I played my real speed was when I owned my last poolroom. It closed in January, 2005 and I basically quit playing after that. I came back and cashed in a couple of tournaments (U.S. Bar Table and Seniors tourney), but I was playing 75% speed at best. I had one big win over Frank The Barber who had been my nemisis when we were youngun's. I got a little fired up to play him again after all these years. :)
Interesting, you and I are of the same generation, and have observed how ther game has changed over the years. Gone are the days of Rempe, Varner and Hall I wonder if they were able to be time warped in their primes how they would complete in this new style of today’s players. Has the cloth really made that big a difference?
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
And oh yes, I fergot -- I made Justin Bergman pull up.

This would have been like probably over 10 years ago but he was still known as the hot young gun in town. But anywhos, he comes into The Break across the river in Cahokia and i'm practicing on the money/pit table and he wants to play 1pocket for $20 a game and I say, "Sure." I win three in a row and be pulls up saying something like, "I don't want to do this anymore" and leaves.

It was a special moment but nowadays I'd need a considerable spot to even think about it.

Lou Figueroa
probably crush me
like a ripe grape
Back in those days I made 20bucks off of him, well not directly but by him losing. Just like you said, he was the young hotshot everybody liked. We were at the swanee at hollywood billiards and some rail bird thought Justin would win. He had no idea who LOUIS ULRICH was... I don't usually bet, but I did bet him $20 and won when Louis beat him and put him to the loser's side.

Jaden
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Interesting, you and I are of the same generation, and have observed how ther game has changed over the years. Gone are the days of Rempe, Varner and Hall I wonder if they were able to be time warped in their primes how they would complete in this new style of today’s players. Has the cloth really made that big a difference?
Not so much to guys like that. They were able to adapt to the playing conditions, no matter what they were. You had to be back then!
 

L.S. Dennis

Active member
No question there's more good players today. I'm not complaining about the cloth they are using, just saying that the game is played differently today because of it. Pool is more a game requiring a soft touch then the power game of yesteryear (but not always). It's all good! You still have to put the balls in the hole and get shape on the next ball.
Seems as though the power break has largely been taken out the equation because of the templet rack allowing for the more accurate softer break and the certainty of making the wing ball almost every time. The cloth of course has a lot to do with it as well. Guys like Wade Crane and David Howard wouldn’t have fared as well today in the breaking department.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Seems as though the power break has largely been taken out the equation because of the templet rack allowing for the more accurate softer break and the certainty of making the wing ball almost every time. The cloth of course has a lot to do with it as well. Guys like Wade Crane and David Howard wouldn’t have fared as well today in the breaking department.
They would have adjusted I'm sure.
 

ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Silver Member
They would have adjusted I'm sure.
Exactly, just like baseball players hitting sliders and knuckleballs or 98mph fastballs they didn't throw in 1920. They would have adjusted just like they did to all the pitchers back from the day. That's what they do, that's why they went as far as they did. ;)
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
Seems as though the power break has largely been taken out the equation because of the templet rack allowing for the more accurate softer break and the certainty of making the wing ball almost every time. The cloth of course has a lot to do with it as well. Guys like Wade Crane and David Howard wouldn’t have fared as well today in the breaking department.
Corey Dueul was soft breaking before there were any template racks.

Jaden
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How many players that post here on AZ billiards do you think can say they've beaten a top 100 player in the world in competition without a spot coming into play???? I'm honestly curious.

Jaden

p.s. feel free to chime in if you have.
How about just winning games against them. That is an outstanding achievement for most of the working players. Especially in non rotation games. I am not going to say the people I won against, but I had some days in my pool experience where I battled with some very strong players and kept them trying to stop me, and not being able to. I felt like I was the king of the world. It only happened about 4 times in 50 years of play, but they are great memories.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I beat a pro for cash but I suspect he was laying down. He didn't think I knew who he was.
 

eg9327

Member
I beat about 5 drunks last night. They might not have been topp 100 drunks, but they were definitely stumbling pretty good.
 

gypsy_soul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I also beat Ronnie Allen in a (short) one pocket match, David Howard (US Open winner) 11-8 in Reno, and, I'm told, Denny Searcy at nine ball (it was the 70s and a blur ;) ).

I think more here could make such claims if only they would get out and play.

I also beat Allison Fisher at an Expo. She broke and ran a rack on me, then broke dry and I ran out. I won on fewer misses. 😋

I've also been beaten like a rented mule by Dallas West, Bob Vanover, Steve Mizerak, Allen Hopkins, Oscar, Thorsten, Dennis Orcullo, Darren, Biado, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Torbjörn Blomdahl and others too onerous to mention.

In1991 I gave Ronnie Allen 10-7 playing one pocket and he had to play with one hand , jacked up , on a 10ft table at CJ’s Billiards Palace in Dallas TX for $3 grand …. I got away with the cash after 12hrs of grinding!!! Thought I was gonna steal the cash but I barely got there , he never stopped talking the entire time lol 😂 Fun times, I miss Ronnie for sure, what a lesson I got that day , I was 21 …. Also got to play Jonnie Ervalino ( sorry if I misspelled his name ) , what a character he was !
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
In1991 I gave Ronnie Allen 10-7 playing one pocket and he had to play with one hand , jacked up , on a 10ft table at CJ’s Billiards Palace in Dallas TX for $3 grand …. I got away with the cash after 12hrs of grinding!!! Thought I was gonna steal the cash but I barely got there , he never stopped talking the entire time lol 😂 Fun times, I miss Ronnie for sure, what a lesson I got that day , I was 21 …. Also got to play Jonnie Ervalino ( sorry if I misspelled his name ) , what a character he was !
You got around pretty good dude. You caught Ronnie at the tail end of his career. His best days were behind him by then, but he was still dangerous. I saw Ronnie beat some very good One Pocket players playing even, his one hand to their two. Lesser players could get anywhere from 10-8 to 10-6. And he could hit you with ten and out in those days!

His favorite gaff game was to play one handed (either jacked up or on the table) and give up games like 10-6 to good players and take the break. If you let Ronnie break you were dead meat. But you know that too, don't you.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They mow the greens now?!? When did that start? I remember when we needed bacon grease on the balls and bloodhounds for putting.

But seriously, folks, I think the top 100 now are a lot more skilled than the top 100 in 1960. The skill set is slightly different and that seems to bother some people.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are many more players of a higher skill level world wide ( talking pool now) then there were years ago. I can remember tournaments with 24 or so entrants in the early 1990s that I won and if I played at that same skill level now in any 24 person tournament I would not ever place at all in the money.

I have tried to continually improve using all the latest teaching techniques available and that is the only thing that has kept me reasonably competitive. There are just more very, very good players now; than one would run into in a room or a tournament say 30 or more years ago.

I think if you take the old standard amateur pool player ratings of A,B, C, D. - that the players today have all moved up at least one letter- a B rated player from 1990 plays more like a C rated player today, and a good B player today is much more like an A rate player from 1990.

The availability of proper training on technique is on a totally different page than 30 or more years ago. There is a right way to play this game from the ground up and it is now available to everyone in video, personal instruction, and just a few great books IMO.

It is not as much the equipment as I believe it is the stroke and the discipline and the availability to become aware of the correct approach to the game.

I will add something else here too- managing emotion during competition is easily 50% of success in any sport. There was not even a decent book available until the mid 1990s on either the awareness, the process, or the methods of managing emotion- the how's and why's of the working of the human mind. Pool books like " A Mind for Pool" or "Pleasures of Small Motions" never came close to truly examining what goes on within the brain during stressful situations and how one can transfer that knowledge to steadying the pool stroke in strong competition. It is all out there now and those whose strokes got crushed by the weight of competition can learn how to become masters of their emotions and free themselves to execute at their very best potential on every stroke- just like the very best pros - BC that is really what makes someone a champion.
 
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book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is no doubt in my mind that there are many more players of a higher skill level world wide ( talking pool now) then there were years ago. I can remember tournaments with 24 or so entrants in the early 1990s that I won and if I played at that same skill level now in any 24 person tournament I would not ever place at all in the money.

I have tried to continually improve using all the latest teaching techniques available and that is the only thing that has kept me reasonably competitive. There are just more very, very good players now; than one would run into in a room or a tournament say 30 or more years ago.

I think if you take the old standard amateur pool player ratings of A,B, C, D. - that the players today have all moved up at least one letter- a B rated player from 1990 plays more like a C rated player today, and a good B player today is much more like an A rate player from 1990.

The availability of proper training on technique is on a totally different page than 30 or more years ago. There is a right way to play this game from the ground up and it is now available to everyone in video, personal instruction, and just a few great books IMO.

It is not as much the equipment as I believe it is the stroke and the discipline and the availability to become aware of the correct approach to the game.

I will add something else here too- managing emotion during competition is easily 50% of success in any sport. There was not even a decent book available until the mid 1990s on either the awareness, the process, or the methods of managing emotion- the how's and why's of the working of the human mind. Pool books like " A Mind for Pool" or "Pleasures of Small Motions" never came close to truly examining what goes on within the brain during stressful situations and how one can transfer that knowledge to steadying the pool stroke in strong competition. It is all out there now and those whose strokes got crushed by the weight of competition can learn how to become masters of their emotions and free themselves to execute at their very best potential on every stroke- just like the very best pros - BC that is really what makes someone a champion.
I agree 100% that there are many more high level players today than in 1990. The advent of leagues and all the information being available that was once reserved for a handful a year , has raised the bar.
 

gypsy_soul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is no doubt in my mind that there are many more players of a higher skill level world wide ( talking pool now) then there were years ago. I can remember tournaments with 24 or so entrants in the early 1990s that I won and if I played at that same skill level now in any 24 person tournament I would not ever place at all in the money.

I have tried to continually improve using all the latest teaching techniques available and that is the only thing that has kept me reasonably competitive. There are just more very, very good players now; than one would run into in a room or a tournament say 30 or more years ago.

I think if you take the old standard amateur pool player ratings of A,B, C, D. - that the players today have all moved up at least one letter- a B rated player from 1990 plays more like a C rated player today, and a good B player today is much more like an A rate player from 1990.

The availability of proper training on technique is on a totally different page than 30 or more years ago. There is a right way to play this game from the ground up and it is now available to everyone in video, personal instruction, and just a few great books IMO.

It is not as much the equipment as I believe it is the stroke and the discipline and the availability to become aware of the correct approach to the game.

I will add something else here too- managing emotion during competition is easily 50% of success in any sport. There was not even a decent book available until the mid 1990s on either the awareness, the process, or the methods of managing emotion- the how's and why's of the working of the human mind. Pool books like " A Mind for Pool" or "Pleasures of Small Motions" never came close to truly examining what goes on within the brain during stressful situations and how one can transfer that knowledge to steadying the pool stroke in strong competition. It is all out there now and those whose strokes got crushed by the weight of competition can learn how to become masters of their emotions and free themselves to execute at their very best potential on every stroke- just like the very best pros - BC that is really what makes someone a champion.
💯 agree
 
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