Matching-up, tactics, pace and style of play, recognizing vulnerability and knowing what to do when you see it... Please share
beating better/more skilled players... stories and strategies????
- Thread starter PhilosopherKing
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I used to play a guy that was one of the best bankers I've ever seen.
If I couldn't hook him playing safe I made sure he did not have any kind of bank shot.
If I couldn't hook him playing safe I made sure he did not have any kind of bank shot.
did you ever try to shake his confidence by getting him to shoot and miss low percentage banks? would that have been a good or bad strategy?
what if you tried to out-bank him? would it rattle him or at least distract and take him a little off his game?
oooooooops
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this thread's about finding ways to beat better players.
or, finding ways to outplay guys you can't outshoot.
If you are playing someone who is flat out better then you and you want to win one of two things need to happen, they need to play worse then normal and come down to your level or below, or you need to play better then you normally do and play up at or above their level.
There is no real strategy. If they are better at the game overall then your playing a safety instead of a shot or taking on a tough shot instead of playing a safety is still putting your own lesser skills in those aspects of the games up against their own superior skills.
I have beaten quite a few players who are overall better players then me over the years, but in those times I normally managed to play a level or two above my normal speed and got into a very confident frame of mind and was able to simply play at that higher level I needed to play at in order to win.
All in all it is the same as any match. You want to beat someone in a race to 9? Play better then them, miss less shots, run more racks then them. Whether they are better than you or worse than you at the end of the day you need to play better then them in "that" match to win.
There is no real strategy. If they are better at the game overall then your playing a safety instead of a shot or taking on a tough shot instead of playing a safety is still putting your own lesser skills in those aspects of the games up against their own superior skills.
I have beaten quite a few players who are overall better players then me over the years, but in those times I normally managed to play a level or two above my normal speed and got into a very confident frame of mind and was able to simply play at that higher level I needed to play at in order to win.
All in all it is the same as any match. You want to beat someone in a race to 9? Play better then them, miss less shots, run more racks then them. Whether they are better than you or worse than you at the end of the day you need to play better then them in "that" match to win.
Sounds obvious, but it's about making yourself play your best, and finding the best way to make your good opponents play worse than they usually do.
Most strong opponents shoot with their own specific rhythm (fast, slow, etc.). Try to alter the game's pace so that it's outside your opponents' natural rhythm, provided you can do so without throwing yourself off or breaking any rules. Basically use any manner of psychology to your advantage as much as possible without being unethical. Strong players are very confident, frequently over-confident, and will overestimate their percentages on various shots. It's both what got them good in the first place, and a weakness. Use this to your advantage when evaluating risk-reward of your shots and where to leave your opponent on defense.
Most strong opponents shoot with their own specific rhythm (fast, slow, etc.). Try to alter the game's pace so that it's outside your opponents' natural rhythm, provided you can do so without throwing yourself off or breaking any rules. Basically use any manner of psychology to your advantage as much as possible without being unethical. Strong players are very confident, frequently over-confident, and will overestimate their percentages on various shots. It's both what got them good in the first place, and a weakness. Use this to your advantage when evaluating risk-reward of your shots and where to leave your opponent on defense.
Once you get to a certain skill level there isn't really much you can do against a superior player. The one thing I do know is that you have to shoot. Lots of people tell stories about shooting safeties and frustrating their opponent etc, but once the player is at the top level it won't work anymore. These players are liable to kick a ball in or resafe you most of the time. Unless you can put a couple of racks together you have very little chance of winning, if any at all. My victories against better players have always been "shooting" victories where I ran racks. I've lost plenty of times when I thought I had them locked up and then having them run out on me.
Sometimes you'll catch a player at an "off" day, but apart from that the above holds true.
You just have to run out and when you can't run out, lay perfect safeties.
Sometimes you'll catch a player at an "off" day, but apart from that the above holds true.
You just have to run out and when you can't run out, lay perfect safeties.
He banked better then Wells Fargo.
2strong4u
Banned
To beat strong players you have to make your shots but there's a couple more important tasks.
Don't sell out when you miss. Giving up easy out will make it impossible for you to win. So think about what you will leave if you miss. If it's a poor percentage shot...think about the safe.
When playing safe they need to be lock safes. You can't let them hit the object ball and return the safe or luck a ball. You play safe to get ball in hand. You get ball in hand and you get out.
Work on your game and when you play better talent you can rise to the occasion. If you can break and run a couple racks a set, it enables you to beat a higher level of talent. Practice your break. Humiliate the ghost. Shock the world!
Don't sell out when you miss. Giving up easy out will make it impossible for you to win. So think about what you will leave if you miss. If it's a poor percentage shot...think about the safe.
When playing safe they need to be lock safes. You can't let them hit the object ball and return the safe or luck a ball. You play safe to get ball in hand. You get ball in hand and you get out.
Work on your game and when you play better talent you can rise to the occasion. If you can break and run a couple racks a set, it enables you to beat a higher level of talent. Practice your break. Humiliate the ghost. Shock the world!
when players of different abilities play, its human nature for the worse player to play a little better, and the better player to play a little worse (playing toward the skill of the opponent)
One strategy is to play short sets against the better player, that way you only have to get hot (or lucky) for a little while (over the long haul, the better player has the bigger advantage)
another strategy I have used to pretend to be a little worse than I am, that way the better player relaxes and doesn't play his best game. Hopefully I will catch him off guard and get the win before he bears down.........
One strategy is to play short sets against the better player, that way you only have to get hot (or lucky) for a little while (over the long haul, the better player has the bigger advantage)
another strategy I have used to pretend to be a little worse than I am, that way the better player relaxes and doesn't play his best game. Hopefully I will catch him off guard and get the win before he bears down.........
Around 1998 in Chicago they had a International 3C tournament. Many foreign players from Europe, also the TOP 4 players in the World at that time.
The 4 players were seeded into the Finals, in the finals the 'Seeded' player went to 50 and the rest of the finalist went to 43.
In the preliminaries I was 7/1, My second game of the finals was with one of the seeded players, (I won't mention His name). On paper this player was supposed to win, but close, but, after about 7 or 8 innings I could tell this guy was choking a little when things weren't going as He planned.
Through two thirds of the game, the guy had really come off the rails and is getting a little testy! I decided to really put him to the test for some heart, I started stalling a little and playing 'Defence.' Well that's when He fell apart like a cheap suit!
Final score, 43-33! The guy was so extremely furious, He wouldn't even shake my hand after the game and muttered some profanity some what under His breath!
I turned to Him and told Him, "You'll never be World Champion, you're a GREAT talent and player, but, you don't have one of these!" And I was thumping on my heart
The 4 players were seeded into the Finals, in the finals the 'Seeded' player went to 50 and the rest of the finalist went to 43.
In the preliminaries I was 7/1, My second game of the finals was with one of the seeded players, (I won't mention His name). On paper this player was supposed to win, but close, but, after about 7 or 8 innings I could tell this guy was choking a little when things weren't going as He planned.
Through two thirds of the game, the guy had really come off the rails and is getting a little testy! I decided to really put him to the test for some heart, I started stalling a little and playing 'Defence.' Well that's when He fell apart like a cheap suit!
Final score, 43-33! The guy was so extremely furious, He wouldn't even shake my hand after the game and muttered some profanity some what under His breath!
I turned to Him and told Him, "You'll never be World Champion, you're a GREAT talent and player, but, you don't have one of these!" And I was thumping on my heart
I don't think there is much of anything you can do to beat a better player with tactics, that is unless he is a better shooter but does not know much about % shots or safeties.
The only way to win is to play at your best and have them play at bellow their average speed.
I tell my son this, for him to start thinking he is a good player he has to even out his hills of good games and bad games so where they are little bumps. If your game is run 6 balls one game, run 2 balls the next, you will lose a lot, then a worse player can beat you. If you run 6 balls one game and 5 another, a worse player will very rarely beat you.
You can't out-move or out-think a better player because they will know what you know and then some. You try a soft break to leave clusters, he can turn that around on you with a safe instead of going for a crazy shot. You leave him a shot you think is tough, he may be able to nail it 90% of the time.
I had some guy use the old 8 ball tactic of just batting balls around and trying to block pockets with his balls on my son, he lost bad because my son could run out, and he did, just waited till he got a shot, then just played position for pockets that were clear or used his balls or the cueball to clear the pockets.
Couple things what can help ...
Know your opponent.
What areas of his game you could beat or be even. If you know he is strong kicker/safety play play over confident and aggressive game.
Because you should not try compete his strengths. If he is shotmaker\flashy player try play grinding safeties to get him shoot too hard balls whose tear him confidence down..
Mental game. If he is fast player you need to play little bit slow. Vice Verca. Also if he is like Earl Strickland or Mika Immonen you should try shots what could have less control but have good chances to get lucky. If you happen to make some they might get so mad they can't play solid anymore(caution. Sometimes they fire everything in because they're mad).
Mental game goal is not to shark but bring opponents weaknesses for play. Many other aspects here.
Attitude.
You need to have cold mathematical approach for your chances. Figure what gives you best odds for strategy to match. Lot of similarity with poker odds. Also you have to accept fact; If I don't perform I don't have a chance. So it's easy to play without pressure when you accept that. You can then just focus strategy and performance.
Some example from my best match against superior opponent.
Year was near 2000 and I was playing Finnish Eurotour event after long period non competitive playing. It was knockdown round. Winner goes to 32 cup. Loser goes home. Also price money was okay too if I could pull this one.
I get against strong Dutch player who was reigning European Champ. I was on stroke so I knew I could have some changes.
Alternative break race to 9 nine ball. I would like more winner break but no matter.
I win lag and run out first rack even in little nervous. He run out him too then clear from my dry break and run out his second break also. He plays perfect.
I get ball from my break but get out of line while run out and we go safety play. He outplayed me easily and grab that game also. Then he run to five ball his rack and plays safe. I kick, he plays again safe, I kick, he get shot he get out.
Game is 1-5 to him.
I'm break and dry. He run balls again to five balls then play safe.
Now here is turning point. I realize he plays strategy of not taking any hard shots he might miss because he thinks he outplay me safeties anyway.
I also realize I need to keep him not able to steamroll.
I have easy 1 rail kick what I know I hit 100% but I will also sell out 50% to 70%. I give up any thoughts about one railer because I KNOW I will lose that way always. I just can't him to get chance. So I figure 4 rail kick what I noticed was good line and really good chances to get safe if I hit it solid. I hit it solid and freeze cue ball behind same ball which was hooking me!
I get ball in hand and clear table and then he break dry. I run table and run out my break also. Now I got momentum and he start feel pressure. I'm just nobody from middle of nowhere and he was already won 2 last eurotours.
Game goes to hill hill. I break and have really tough one ball. Rest of rack is easy if I just manage to put one down. I miss and he get chance but he is also little awkward. He gets difficult 3 first balls in and I think it's over... But then I see he is shaking. Maybe I got chance. He dogs then EASY 5 ball and I run out and close match!
It was that moment 5-1 where I get right mood and strategy. I knew I must keep pressure to him or no chances. So I knew I need perform higher standards kicking to keep him difficult places.
Know your opponent.
What areas of his game you could beat or be even. If you know he is strong kicker/safety play play over confident and aggressive game.
Because you should not try compete his strengths. If he is shotmaker\flashy player try play grinding safeties to get him shoot too hard balls whose tear him confidence down..
Mental game. If he is fast player you need to play little bit slow. Vice Verca. Also if he is like Earl Strickland or Mika Immonen you should try shots what could have less control but have good chances to get lucky. If you happen to make some they might get so mad they can't play solid anymore(caution. Sometimes they fire everything in because they're mad).
Mental game goal is not to shark but bring opponents weaknesses for play. Many other aspects here.
Attitude.
You need to have cold mathematical approach for your chances. Figure what gives you best odds for strategy to match. Lot of similarity with poker odds. Also you have to accept fact; If I don't perform I don't have a chance. So it's easy to play without pressure when you accept that. You can then just focus strategy and performance.
Some example from my best match against superior opponent.
Year was near 2000 and I was playing Finnish Eurotour event after long period non competitive playing. It was knockdown round. Winner goes to 32 cup. Loser goes home. Also price money was okay too if I could pull this one.
I get against strong Dutch player who was reigning European Champ. I was on stroke so I knew I could have some changes.
Alternative break race to 9 nine ball. I would like more winner break but no matter.
I win lag and run out first rack even in little nervous. He run out him too then clear from my dry break and run out his second break also. He plays perfect.
I get ball from my break but get out of line while run out and we go safety play. He outplayed me easily and grab that game also. Then he run to five ball his rack and plays safe. I kick, he plays again safe, I kick, he get shot he get out.
Game is 1-5 to him.
I'm break and dry. He run balls again to five balls then play safe.
Now here is turning point. I realize he plays strategy of not taking any hard shots he might miss because he thinks he outplay me safeties anyway.
I also realize I need to keep him not able to steamroll.
I have easy 1 rail kick what I know I hit 100% but I will also sell out 50% to 70%. I give up any thoughts about one railer because I KNOW I will lose that way always. I just can't him to get chance. So I figure 4 rail kick what I noticed was good line and really good chances to get safe if I hit it solid. I hit it solid and freeze cue ball behind same ball which was hooking me!
I get ball in hand and clear table and then he break dry. I run table and run out my break also. Now I got momentum and he start feel pressure. I'm just nobody from middle of nowhere and he was already won 2 last eurotours.
Game goes to hill hill. I break and have really tough one ball. Rest of rack is easy if I just manage to put one down. I miss and he get chance but he is also little awkward. He gets difficult 3 first balls in and I think it's over... But then I see he is shaking. Maybe I got chance. He dogs then EASY 5 ball and I run out and close match!
It was that moment 5-1 where I get right mood and strategy. I knew I must keep pressure to him or no chances. So I knew I need perform higher standards kicking to keep him difficult places.
Nice post Poolmanis. Players should take note of what you said here since you play so well and you seem to know what you are talking about.
There are two things that I have noticed when watching matches between two unevenly skilled players. The first is the weaker player tends to play tight and they try to play too perfect. My haunch is they try to focus, or bear down their way to victory. This doesn't usually work. I think it just puts even more pressure on the lesser player. The second thing I've noticed and this returns better results is when the weaker player just plays their game as if they are alone practicing. These are normally seasoned gamblers that just don't give a rip who they are playing. They can play their game regardless of who the opponent is. This should probably be a goal that we all have -- being able to play our game no matter what. Of course, this is much easier said than done but really when you think about it -- what do you really have to lose when you are playing someone much better than you? You are supposed to lose. You have everything to gain so just play your game and accept your fate.
I know I need to take my own advice.
There are two things that I have noticed when watching matches between two unevenly skilled players. The first is the weaker player tends to play tight and they try to play too perfect. My haunch is they try to focus, or bear down their way to victory. This doesn't usually work. I think it just puts even more pressure on the lesser player. The second thing I've noticed and this returns better results is when the weaker player just plays their game as if they are alone practicing. These are normally seasoned gamblers that just don't give a rip who they are playing. They can play their game regardless of who the opponent is. This should probably be a goal that we all have -- being able to play our game no matter what. Of course, this is much easier said than done but really when you think about it -- what do you really have to lose when you are playing someone much better than you? You are supposed to lose. You have everything to gain so just play your game and accept your fate.
I know I need to take my own advice.
play your game
I play better players quit often. The trick, IMO, is to play your game, don't get caught up in trying to out run the better player. More often than not when you try to play the run out game with a better player you will lose because its just that the better player is a better shot maker, stronger position play, and better breaks.
Ultimately you need to make them feel uncomfortable. If they don't get out play safe, and lock them up or leave them long and on the rail. When you have the chance to get out make sure you do. If you are playing 8 ball make sure to determine, realistically, that you can get out or you can't early in the game.
Don't let them running racks get to you. Just sit there, stay composed and be ready when you have the chance. The tables, pun intended, can turn quickly in your favor.
I play better players quit often. The trick, IMO, is to play your game, don't get caught up in trying to out run the better player. More often than not when you try to play the run out game with a better player you will lose because its just that the better player is a better shot maker, stronger position play, and better breaks.
Ultimately you need to make them feel uncomfortable. If they don't get out play safe, and lock them up or leave them long and on the rail. When you have the chance to get out make sure you do. If you are playing 8 ball make sure to determine, realistically, that you can get out or you can't early in the game.
Don't let them running racks get to you. Just sit there, stay composed and be ready when you have the chance. The tables, pun intended, can turn quickly in your favor.