Becoming a professional

[mapman72]

Thank You

Obviously this topic struck a chord with many of you and I appreciate your advice and comments. I am still anxious to hear from some others on the list about their personal experiences. One thing that I forgot to mention is that I am 33 years old, and when I was 28 I was diagnosed with stage 3 Cancer that started in my tonsil and spread to my lymph nodes. Although I had two surgeries, a feeding tube for over a year, chemotherapy, and radiation, I have come out on top and beat it. So, I guess I am now suffering from the "Lance Armstrong" syndrome. It's not just enough to beat Cancer anymore, now you have to win 7 Tour de France's. Just kidding, but seriously, after that battle, I feel like there is nothing that I can't accomplish and that is what has me even considering a professional pool career. I also feel that I don't want to be in another situation where I am staring at my life slipping away and wondering "what if".

But so many great points were made about the pitfalls of turning pro and I have even seen this playing on the regional tours. Last weekend I had a somewhat decent tournament in Virginia taking 7/8th ($150), but when I did the math, I realized that after entry fee, hotel, gas, food, etc., I was down about $150. Not bad for a great weekend getaway, but now that isn't my sole source of income (thank God). And those who recommended the US Open to test my skills, wouldn't you know that my work's biggest conference of the year always seems to coincide with that tournament So, as for now, I believe that I will continue to play on the regional circuit, while taking small steps to improve my game like entering the DCC or other bigger events. Thanks again.

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Mapman72 have you considered be a Weekend Pro, and attending Tournaments with in Striking Distance of your Home on Weekends? Hoping to make a name for yourself, and get a Sponsorship Deal so you can go full time?

 

[bgb]

He was speaking of himself, an athlete ontop of his game. I don't know if he'd say that about an aspiring amateur in a poor-paying sport. There are a ton of risks.

I can promise you what he would say - 'you want to keep a boring old job instead of trying to make a living at the thing you love - you cannot be serious'

 

[sarahrousey]

Mapman,

I might be able to give a different take, but things are also different for me because I'm a girl and we have a tour and all of that.

I think you should follow your dream. That has always been what I have been told about life, to follow your dream. How many people in the world can say they did that?

I always wanted to be a professional pool player, but I was always told not to and told to go to college and get a job, do what everyone does. So I was sitting in 8 am micro-economics class and all I could think about was pool. I was practicing my bridge and all that and thinking, "well, when class gets done the pool hall will be open." So I changed my path, knowing it would be difficult. I finished my second year of college and took a chance. I had to travel thousands of miles to even qualify for the pro tour. But everytime I played in a pro event I knew I was right were I belonged.

Yes, it is frustrating to say that you are one of the top players in your sport and you are broke. Yes, expenses are ridiculous and you have to try to cut corners everywhere you possibly can. I don't have a sponsor either so I know the pain of getting to tournaments. JAM and some of the others are right. You have to get used to a totally different lifestyle.

I disagree with what someone said about the pros hating what they do. If you hate what you do then you are obviously doing it for the wrong reason. You may go through periods of time when you are frustrated or down on yourself, but you have to try to not focus too much on the struggle to make money and take time to remember, you do what you love everyday. People who hate their profession have lost sight of that.

I would say the only way to not go for it is if you have a family. If others are depending on you then it is somewhat selfish. I am doing it now, while I am young before I have a family to depend on me. But if you don't, I say go for it. Especially since you have already kind of tested life and won by beating cancer. You kind of deserve a reward and that reward could be to follow your dream.

Sarah

 

[JustPlay]

Mapman,

I might be able to give a different take, but things are also different for me because I'm a girl and we have a tour and all of that.

I think you should follow your dream. That has always been what I have been told about life, to follow your dream. How many people in the world can say they did that?

I always wanted to be a professional pool player, but I was always told not to and told to go to college and get a job, do what everyone does. So I was sitting in 8 am micro-economics class and all I could think about was pool. I was practicing my bridge and all that and thinking, "well, when class gets done the pool hall will be open." So I changed my path, knowing it would be difficult. I finished my second year of college and took a chance. I had to travel thousands of miles to even qualify for the pro tour. But everytime I played in a pro event I knew I was right were I belonged.

Yes, it is frustrating to say that you are one of the top players in your sport and you are broke. Yes, expenses are ridiculous and you have to try to cut corners everywhere you possibly can. I don't have a sponsor either so I know the pain of getting to tournaments. JAM and some of the others are right. You have to get used to a totally different lifestyle.

....... but you have to try to not focus too much on the struggle to make money and take time to remember, you do what you love everyday. People who hate their profession have lost sight of that.

.........

Sarah

Ms. Rousey,

I dont' know how old you are or if you live at home or come from a wealth family, but, trying to become a full time tournament pool player has too many drawbacks if a person is in their mid 20's or older.

How much money did you make this year as a "professional" pool player (without counting gambling winnings or losses)? I didn't see your name on the top 20 womens money list (20th place has made $4800 this year so far).

Please, dont' get me wrong, I am not attacking you or your dreams, but one has to be realistic about successfully achiving those dreams and at what cost. This person can still keep his day job and play in all of the major and regional tournaments he likes. But to play tournament pool full time he is going to have to beat players like Strickland, Putnam, Archer, Davis, McCready, Frank, Hohmann, Reyes, Fisher, Corr, Lee and a host of others if he wants to maintain his current life style and still have money for food at the end of the week.

On top of that when the rent, taxes, gas, hotel bill, food, clothing etc, are due, how is he going to like to have to play the top players in the country and in the world just to pay his bills? Its great to play these players, but, they have bills too that have to be paid and unless you can beat these players on a consistant basis, they will beat you to first place more times then you beat them...

If you are in your teens or early 20's, then I think if a person has the talent to play with the best, then I think they have some time on their hands to give it a shot to be a full time tournament pool player, nothing wrong with trying it for a few years...

 

[sarahrousey]

JustPlay,

I guess I didn't mention my age and yes, I'm sure my age has something to do with what I say and do. I am 22. I decided to start playing or trying to playing professionally at age 19. I don't come from a wealthy family whatsoever and I do not live with my parents. I work hard playing in local tournaments and of course gambling. Don't get me wrong, it is a major struggle. That is why I said you have to get used to a totally different lifestyle.

That lifestyle is also why I mentioned that it would be selfish if you had others depending on you. And the reason I am doing this while I am young. I agree perhaps being a weekend warrior is the proper thing for mapman to do until he is ready to integrate himself into the full-on pool player lifestyle. It is a personal choice that only he can make.

Sarah

 

[1pRoscoe]

JustPlay,

I guess I didn't mention my age and yes, I'm sure my age has something to do with what I say and do. I am 22. I decided to start playing or trying to playing professionally at age 19. I don't come from a wealthy family whatsoever and I do not live with my parents. I work hard playing in local tournaments and of course gambling. Don't get me wrong, it is a major struggle. That is why I said you have to get used to a totally different lifestyle.

That lifestyle is also why I mentioned that it would be selfish if you had others depending on you. And the reason I am doing this while I am young. I agree perhaps being a weekend warrior is the proper thing for mapman to do until he is ready to integrate himself into the full-on pool player lifestyle. It is a personal choice that only he can make.

Sarah

Excellent posts, Ms Rousey...

 

[wayne]

I think your making way more out of this than is needed....Let me ask you one question....Do you think that any PGA tour player is going to say they have "no chance" to beat Tiger or Ernie???

Perhaps the "all the money in your pocket" is what your harping on...That's fine... it was only a comment to emphasize the being honest part...perhaps its a little overboard for you....

I will retract the "all the money in your pocket" statement......If that doesn't make you happy...then I know your just sparking the lighter.........er.....I mean looking for a flame war...(in case your mind reading skills are turned off)..........

Well now that you have revised it twice it makes me happier. To give someone the original advise (if you were serious) would certainly not be realistic for any aspiring pro and I guess anyone with any common sense would realize this but it really did make me laugh in the first place.

I still entertain thoughts of winning a pro tournament and therefore look for a realistic assessment of what it would take. I have observed a few players who were strong and getting stronger and saw them move up to become world class players, the most observable feature of both was the continued gradient improvement over a lengthy period of time.

This has been my successful action over a lengthy period of time is to continue to search for ways to improve and never be happy with the status quo. I haven't yet taken the plunge to see if I can be all I can be and maybe all I can be is a shortstop, but if there comes a point when the time is ripe I may take that plunge.

Wayne

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

JustPlay,

I guess I didn't mention my age and yes, I'm sure my age has something to do with what I say and do. I am 22. I decided to start playing or trying to playing professionally at age 19. I don't come from a wealthy family whatsoever and I do not live with my parents. I work hard playing in local tournaments and of course gambling. Don't get me wrong, it is a major struggle. That is why I said you have to get used to a totally different lifestyle.

That lifestyle is also why I mentioned that it would be selfish if you had others depending on you. And the reason I am doing this while I am young. I agree perhaps being a weekend warrior is the proper thing for mapman to do until he is ready to integrate himself into the full-on pool player lifestyle. It is a personal choice that only he can make.

Sarah

Hey, there's nothing wrong with taking the weekend warrior-approach. I've seen people come a long way playing very little. Hell, you know Romana. You have to drag her to the room and she's only gotten better lately.

 

[Williebetmore]

How much money did you make this year as a "professional" pool player (without counting gambling winnings or losses)? .

JustPlay,
While your basic thesis is sound (no prize money in pool), the fact remains that there are MANY other sources of income in professional pool - specifically appearances, lessons, gambling income, and ENDORSEMENTS. I know for a fact that I am not alone in thinking the potential for Sarah R. is actually quite large. If and when her game advances her into the top 5, do you not think that "Generation X" image will garner her some much deserved notoriety?? I do.

My only thought on the subject (and a strongly held personal belief) is that anyone that can make a living doing something that they enjoy is blessed. I see far too many people with the life beaten out of them by demanding, unpleasant, stressful jobs.

 

[ScottR]

I hope I get some feedback from the pros on this one. I am at the point in my life where my pool game is very good, but I just can't get over the hump and beat the pros consistently. I play in the regional tour events, and can upset a pro every now and again, but I'm more likely to lose both matches to professional caliber players and just make it into the money rounds and break even or make a little cash. One thing I notice after I play well and lose to McCready or Davis 7-5 or 9-7 is that these guys don't work other than playing pool. Right now, I have a decent career and make pretty good money. Although I would love to try to become professional and play pool for a living, I know I would have to take my lumps for a while until I could make enough money to survive. So my question is: Do I have to totally give up my career and focus all my attention on my pool game to take a chance at turning pro and making living playing pool? or, Can I continue to work a regular job and try to increase my practice time and expect to be able to improve to the level to compete with the professionals that play pool every day of the week? I wanted the feedback from the pros because I'm sure they were all faced with this dilemna at one point or another. When do you know when it's time to drop the "traditional" lifestyle and jump into professional pool? and, can you do it halfway or you just have to take the plunge? Oh, by the way, I'm hating my job lately.

Please help

Get VAP to talk to you. He seems to have figured out how to have a full time job ( ), play pool 22.5 hours per day, post on here 17 times throughout the day AND get sleep.

I'd say he has the nuts on this pool thingy.

 

[alinco]

Hey Mapman,

Excellent thread. Lots of good points have been brought up.
I know you and you and I play about the same. I played a
little better 4 years ago.

I'll relay my experience with 3 current pros that I knew
back when...

A few years ago, Mike Davis was just a little better than
us. Probably barely a ball better than we are now. I had
beaten him in a Planet Pool event but he definitely beat
me several more times. He was able to win one or two PP
events although he wasn't the favorite in this area. Mike
"disappeared" on the road for a couple years and came
back a changed player. The tour had gotten slightly stronger
while he was gone and yet he came back and soon was the
favorite to win events. I guess you learn a lot of ways
to win "on the road". Now he's top 10.

I once beat Danny Basavich in a Planet Pool event when
he missed a shot up 6-4. I ran out the set 7-6. At the time
he was getting to be a strong player capable of winning the
event. He also "disappeared" on the road and came back a
serious contender even in Pro tournaments. While congratulating
him at a Rockville event, he told me that when he left that
our pool skills were about the same. He was a better gambler
but that our abilities were very similar. He said you cannot
imagine the complete game you put together when faced with
road dificulties.

Max Eberle played in this area many years ago as well.
He won a few events but again was not necessarily favored
to win the regional events. Similar to Mike, I was able to
win a few matches but he had the upper hand especially
right before he left the area. I was at a Planet Pool event in
Delaware and had just given away the tournament in my lowest
moment of pool playing. Up both sets in the double elimination
final and lost both by missing shots under pressure. Max asked
me on the ride home what my pool playing goals were. I told him
it was to be a full time professional pool player. He said,
"That's it?". He told me he was going to be a world champion.
I said, "what about after that?". He said he'd win another
world championship and another one after that. Talk about desire.
Shortly after that, he entered his first pro event in Texas.
He finished 4th and has been consistently in the Top 20 ever
since.

I've played a few professional events winning only a few matches.
I cannot stress the importance of playing the US Open. It will
challenge, measure and electrify your game. You have to find
a way to make that event. So much of the country has to fly
to the event. We get to drive and can even go back and forth
if needed. It's barely 3 hours from DC.

We'll talk...
Andy

 

[sjm]

Sarah Rousey's right. If the dream means enough to you, chase it, but not before you fully measure the sacrifices required and conclude that you're willing to make them.

Still, this thread is starting to bother me a bit. It has been filled with lots of superb advice, but those who suggest that you only need to go on the road and/or compete often in first-flight events to build your competitive pedigree are, in my opinion, not telling it like it is.

Our sport is filled with countless players who think they need only execute their games a little better to reach the game's highest level. A few of them are right, but in my view, most of them are wrong.

I believe that what stands between most capable, promising players and the realization of their dream of playing at pro level is a) fundamentals that are good but not good enough, b) pattern play that is solid but not solid enough, c) a break that is good but not good enough, d) defense and tactical play that is good but not good enough, and e) kicking that is not good enough. In each case, the missing ingredient is knowledge, and that knowledge is best acquired through top notch instruction or, at very least, regular collaboration in a non-competitive situation with top game theorists.

A plan to reach the game's highest level must include a plan to fill in the gaps in one's knowledge. This, of course, would be on top of the recommended steps already advocated for maximizing one's competitive pedigree.

To all who aspire to the game's top level, beware the trap of concluding that you have enough knowledge, and that only better execution stands between you and reaching your potential. Those who've reached the highest echelons of our game have never abandoned their learning curves. Why would you?

 

[jimM]

Kind of like a small business

This has been an interesting discussion. My father was a professional pool player. I've been playing for a few years but have no interest in becoming a pro. For one reason, I'm too old. By the time I get good enough to beat some of you, I'll be dead.

My father died in '74. He knew and played with all of the big guys at the time. Willie Mosconi, Minnesota Fats. He and Jackie Gleason used to coach two opposing womens teams in Florida. I used to meet some of these guys when they came to Pittsburgh when I was young. So, my father was good. All he left me when he died was a pool cue. It is a very difficult life, even if you are great. I take lessons from Tony Robles in New York and I'm always surprised that someone who plays so well doesn't win all of the time.

My insight to this is that being a pro anything is somewhat like being in a small business or starting one. You have to be willing to starve and love it. You always have to defend yourself with your family who always know someone who is doing better than you are. And the question "Why don't you get a good steady job" seems to always come up. The point is that if you really don't want to do it, you probably shouldn't. There is probably alot more bad about it than good and you have to be able to look past that to look at your dream.

Your question, should you try and can you make enough money is from a rational being. Most of the time, people who do these things are doing the only thing that are good at. There is no other way to live. I think I got my sense of gambling with my life from my father. It is something you have to have in you or you will not survive in these worlds.

Consider people who look at those who have small businesses as people who are free and can do anything they like with their time and they have no boss. Well, alot of that is true but with qualifications. Yes you can do anything you like with your time as long as you want to work 24 hours a day and you have no bosses except the IRS, every customer, and everyone you deal with. So these people read a few books and take their life savings and open a small business. After a year their money is gone and they get scared because there aren't any guarantees. They cut and run, because they have really never starved and loved it. And that is what it takes. If you are someone who loves to do something even though you are starving, then go ahead. But before you lose all of the money you may ever build up, think deaply about it.

I guess one way to go deeper into this is to consider how many tournaments you would have to win to average out to be a weekly paycheck of $1500 like you probably get now. Everytime you say to yourself, if that guy wasn't so lucky when he put me behind the 6 ball, I would have won, you lose a weeks salary, or two weeks salary. It becomes very hard to make up.

Just my thoughts on the subject,
Jim

 

[Salamander]

Terrific post by SJM. That's it in a nut shell.

I will say this, as a member of one of the many decent pool players that is searching for that added extra which will take me "there", I'm no longer holding my breath. Instead of waiting for the day that I can "turn pro", I've instead taken the tact of competing, when time allows, in regional events. I take solace and some pride that I can compete with and sometimes beat the best. But I am no longer under the illusion that even if I were able to attain top 20 in the world, that there is any decent money in this game to sustain a good living.

The road that I have chosen is to play as much as possible, mostly for the love of the game. I really do believe that it is possible to play terrific pool without sacrificing years on the road and hustling up scores in run down bars and pool rooms. If you discipline you're mind, you might be able to win a major tournament like Warren Castanza did (The Monk). His seemed to be a challenge to see if I could win that big tournament and he did....through deligent practice and dedication.

As for quiting you're job...Don't. Instead find something else that interests you and play pool to. Most so called "full-time pros", have other incomes as well.

Hell, if you live on the East coast you have me beat...there is no such things as regional tours in Colorado. If I want to play in a "pro-event", I have to buy an airline ticket to start...then hotels...etc....

Regards,

Doug

 

[JustPlay]

JustPlay,
While your basic thesis is sound (no prize money in pool), the fact remains that there are MANY other sources of income in professional pool - specifically appearances, lessons, gambling income, and ENDORSEMENTS. I know for a fact that I am not alone in thinking the potential for Sarah R. is actually quite large. If and when her game advances her into the top 5, do you not think that "Generation X" image will garner her some much deserved notoriety?? I do.

My only thought on the subject (and a strongly held personal belief) is that anyone that can make a living doing something that they enjoy is blessed. I see far too many people with the life beaten out of them by demanding, unpleasant, stressful jobs.

You are right there are many other sources of income. Endorsements/ Sponsors- Very hard to come by, Ms. Rousey, even pointed out that she doesn't even have them. Appearances are really reserved for world renowed players like Varner, Strickland, Morris, etc.... You have to be that caliber of player and well known for people to pay you to show up at their venue and that take years to get to that status. The only think left is gambling and lessons.

For a person in Sarah's position, sponsorship, endorsements and Appearances could be right around the corner with her talent and popularity. Like, she stated, she started at 19 years old and about 4 years later, she is still looking to break into that market of sponorship, endorsements and Appearances. She is still young enough and has the talent to make a go at it. She also has to start winning major womens tournaments to do so. But if it doesn't materialize, what else does she have to fall back on if all of the above is doesnt happen over the next 5 or 7 years?

Mapman, has to take all of this into consideration before he makes a critical decision. It was nice for Sarah to take the time to post on here what she, goes though as a pro player and give some insight to it.

 

[Jack Madden]

Compare your salary and benefits now to winnings listed in one of the pool mags or online on AZB. Gabe Owen plays pretty sporty. His 2004 total winnings were $40,000. or so. Can you beat him consistently? Of course, this doesn't factor in "following your dream" or what you might win (or lose) on the side.

A friend of mine lived just off his pool winnings in this area for four or five years. He did a lot of scuffling and shuffling. He had a big advantage in that he looked horrible at the table (Lassiter looked pretty bad, too). I saw him win about $600 in one night at a bar between 10PM and 7AM at $10 and $20 nine ball. Is that sort of thing part of your plan to pay the rent? I think it takes a whole different set of abilities than tournament play.

Here is a way you can decide for yourself whether to take the plunge. Find a tough table in a quiet location. Play against the ghost at nine ball. See what your percentage is now, and set your goal for maybe half as many failed racks. For three months or so, play the ghost for an hour every night and then work on your problem shots for an hour. At the end of three months, make your decision.

Bob,
Good advice. Another consideration - do you have a family - wife and kids? "Pro" is a different life style than the 9-5 --- you will be gone a lot ---can be a big strain on relationships.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

 

[sjm]

In each case, the missing ingredient is knowledge, and that knowledge is best acquired through top notch instruction or, at very least, regular collaboration in a non-competitive situation with top game theorists.

QUOTE]

I agree that knowledge is the key, but I don't entirely agree with your statement about where to get it.

For example, Luther Lassiter is your hero, but who taught him? I am sure he had some teachers along the way, but my point is that Luther paved his own path. He made pool 'his way'. I am only going out on a limb here, so please correct me if I am wrong. Efren invented pool. What more needs to be said here.

McCready was obviously gifted and learned on his own more or less. I am sure he had some instructors, but again I have the feeling that Keith taught himself. For example, he claims that he became so good because he knows how to use inside english better than anybody. Who in the hell taught him that?!!! Look at that side arm stroke. I guess someone taught him that?!!! And he looks at the cueball last, as does Earl. Who taught them that?!!! Let's see, was Scott Lee around then? Boy, I wish I had Scott's stroke however! I keep telling Scott that he could have been the one if only he started to look at the object ball last. No one ever listens to WW

And finally, you can have all of the instruction in the world, but if you plain ole don't have it, you won't succeed. Just my opinion. What am I trying to say is - that talent has more to do with it than anything. And a lot of desire. So the posters above are giving a lot of credence to the 'desire' portion, and you are leaning towards 'instruction', but I think that the key word in one's mind should be: talent. Do I have the talent? - is what you should be asking yourself. Bottom line. You know it - otherwise you are seriously fooling yourself.

Just my humble opinion. WW

Agreed and agreed. Nice post. It takes the talent, the knowledge, and the competitive pedigree. I also agree that there is more than one way to get the knowledge.

 

[jjinfla]

Hi Sarah,

Keep in mind that when you go 2-2 in a WPBA tournament you win $1000 to $1300. A man goes 2-2 he doesn't come in the money.

The skill level after Allison and Karen drops drastically so that you have a very good chance to compete against the top 30. Whereas in a top men's tournament everybody can on any given day play as well as Kieth, or better than him.

Sarah, evidently college/University is not for you. It is not for everyone. But when you get tired of the partygirl, funtime, routine, you can always find some man and get married and have him support you. Or go back home to mom and dad. That doesn't work for a man.

LOL


Mapman, you fought the good battle against cancer and I congratulate you. Come down to Florida where every fifth person has done that. But that is a very good reason to keep your job and maintain your health insurance. I would venture to say that none of the pros have any health insurance. You get a relapse and without insurance you will put your family in the poor house.
Is that what you want for your kids?

Jake

 

[vapoolplayer]

Get VAP to talk to you. He seems to have figured out how to have a full time job ( ), play pool 22.5 hours per day, post on here 17 times throughout the day AND get sleep.

I'd say he has the nuts on this pool thingy.

um........sorry scott, i forgot to mention...........i don't work anymore

and whats sleep???

VAP