Bemoaning the rise of the bar box

Tit for Tat

ChicagoRJ said:
yeah, it would be much better if they left the tables unattended with no guests coming in to spend money on good food and nice beer selection. Can't really blame them for pool's problems....

They get paid for the tables on league nights, and anyone that is NOT in the league has to pay. They give free tables to league players....keeps them coming in a lot more often ;)
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At least one helps the other. My theory is that pool could easily be free like darts and it might be a draw for more ....other business.
 
336Robin said:
At least one helps the other. My theory is that pool could easily be free like darts and it might be a draw for more ....other business.
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I've been in pubs (here in the UK) that say you can't play without buying drinks (the tables weren't free play for clarity)!
 
westcoast said:
I think bar tables are fine for most amateurs. However, pro tournaments should almost never be played on bar tables. It isn't challenging enough for them. For example, it is sad that the US Open 10 ball and 8 ball are now played a bar tables. It makes me a lot less interested in those tournaments.

Back to my original point though- bar tables are plenty difficult for most amateurs especially if the pockets are made tighter. I have a 7 footer in my garage that has 4 inch pockets- you cannot fit two balls in the pockets. I bet most players would find it challenging enough to play on. Sure, the top pros in the world would make it look like a joke- but it would plenty challenging for most players.
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Its a different kind of challenge. Ever try 14.1 on a bar box? I did. Ran 50 something no problem in first couple tries and I'm no champ for sure. Felt cheap actually.

What about onepocket on a bar box? I tried that too. I played it with some good players. They took convincing to event attempt it. NOT the experience I was going for. BUT, that's all the bar had, so there you go.

And that pretty much sums it all up. Nothing really wrong with bar box 8 ball. But there is something wrong with that if that is the only game in town. Pool is a collection of games, not just 8 ball or 9 ball. Part of what holds my interest is the variety of skill sets required for the various disciplines. It can be argued that 8 ball on a bar box is a good game. Fine, I actually agree with that. BUT, 9 ball on a bar box is a joke, onepocket on a barbox is ridiculous, as is 14.1.

Like I said, I'm no champ. The most consecutive 8 ball break & runs I've ever managed to string together is 4 (this was on a 7' diamond smart table). And yes, that was fun. BUT, not as fun as putting up even a 2 pack of 9 ball on the big table. And NOT as fun as running 8 and out in onepocket on the big track. Running 4 or 5 banks on a small table is not as rewarding as doing the same on a 9 footer. Nor are table length draw shots as satisfying.

Bluntly, 7 foot pool is still pool, just more damn boring. And who likes that when there is a clear alternative? Maybe the formations of clubs are a possible solution? One can only hope...
 
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rhatten said:
Bar box 'piss in' pool games (TE 9b, APA rules in 8b or 'piss in' 10b) are not good for pool PERIOD. Who wants to win or loose on a 'shit in' pool game? FIX the game structure- standardize the games... ie Stop rewarding 'bad pool' playing... this is what keeps pool going backwards and provides NO incentive for players to try to get better...

Its hard enough to handicap (match up) skill level without adding in a coin toss to every game...This is why people stop coming to pool tournaments *(game structure!!). Its also a real reason why action is DEAD now. That and those horrific 'Valley type' 6 and 7 footers... All of those tables would make good reef structure at the bottom of the ocean imo... they are really bad for pool.

Randy
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Just out of curiosity would One Pocket and Snooker be included in the "piss in" games, or is it just the ones on the small table?
 
jalapus logan said:
Its a different kind of challenge. Ever try 14.1 on a bar box? I did. Ran 50 something no problem in first couple tries and I'm no champ for sure. Felt cheap actually.

What about onepocket on a bar box? I tried that too. I played it with some good players. They took convincing to event attempt it. NOT the experience I was going for. BUT, that's all the bar had, so there you go.

And that pretty much sums it all up. Nothing really wrong with bar box 8 ball. But there is something wrong with that if that is the only game in town. Pool is a collection of games, not just 8 ball or 9 ball. Part of what holds my interest is the variety of skill sets required for the various disciplines. It can be argued that 8 ball on a bar box is a good game. Fine, I actually agree with that. BUT, 9 ball on a bar box is a joke, onepocket on a barbox is ridiculous, as is 14.1.

Like I said, I'm no champ. The most consecutive 8 ball break & runs I've ever managed to string together is 4 (this was on a 7' diamond smart table). And yes, that was fun. BUT, not as fun as putting up even a 2 pack of 9 ball on the big table. And NOT as fun as running 8 and out in onepocket on the big track. Running 4 or 5 banks on a small table is not as rewarding as doing the same on a 9 footer. Nor are table length draw shots as satisfying.

Bluntly, 7 foot pool is still pool, just more damn boring. And who likes that when there is a clear alternative? Maybe the formations of clubs are a possible solution? One can only hope...
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Oddly enough, ive run 3 of 8 and 9 on both, though i rarely play on big tables. I think 9 is better on a big table, while 8 is better for the box.

The hard part about the big table is how much space it takes up, especially in relation to the seating it removes. I've got quite a few places now, but have yet to find a place willing to house a big table because it would take up nearly the room for two boxes. Soon ill be hitting up one of the local halls to see if i can strike a deal in exchange for upgrading their equipment, it hasn't been easy finding the space anywhere else. I wanted to start one up, once i found a spot, but they wanted 150k just to get in the door. Until then, all i can do is keep phasing out the valleys.
 
Banks said:
Oddly enough, ive run 3 of 8 and 9 on both, though i rarely play on big tables. I think 9 is better on a big table, while 8 is better for the box.

The hard part about the big table is how much space it takes up, especially in relation to the seating it removes. I've got quite a few places now, but have yet to find a place willing to house a big table because it would take up nearly the room for two boxes. Soon ill be hitting up one of the local halls to see if i can strike a deal in exchange for upgrading their equipment, it hasn't been easy finding the space anywhere else. I wanted to start one up, once i found a spot, but they wanted 150k just to get in the door. Until then, all i can do is keep phasing out the valleys.
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I'll be in Portland in July. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of an appropriate place to knock some balls around???

Best,

JL
 
Newcomers to our game need the bar table. Without the ability to run a few balls or make what to them is a tough out, they will never touch a big table or even step close enough to kook at it. Hence, as 9 foot players looking to expand our sport we sort of need the 7 foot tables.

I hate the 7 and even 8 footers, but i did learn to play on them and Im sure the majority of us had our days on them as well. Perhaps our personal games have been refined so well that we only appreciate playing on great equipment that the 7 foot bangers havent torn up.

Hell i dunno much, i just know that i had to start somewhere... And it was in a smokey bowling alley with 6- 7' Valleys. I graduated onto a 9' and will never look back, but i sure do like when Joe Cool and his pocket chalker step onto my side of the pool room.
 
Free Pool vs. Free to Drink Pool

vjmehra said:
How is paying for a table freeloading????

If I'm playing pool I have no intention of getting p*ssed, I'm there to play, I'll drink after!
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Go back and reread the post. He was referring to people who were playing on free play tables.....they are free if youre drinking...not free if you just want free pool.
 
336Robin said:
Go back and reread the post. He was referring to people who were playing on free play tables.....they are free if youre drinking...not free if you just want free pool.
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I was replying to you!!

You replied to my post suggesting I was a freeloader, even though I very clearly stated the tables were not free play.
 
PocketPooler said:
Newcomers to our game need the bar table. Without the ability to run a few balls or make what to them is a tough out, they will never touch a big table or even step close enough to kook at it. Hence, as 9 foot players looking to expand our sport we sort of need the 7 foot tables.

I hate the 7 and even 8 footers, but i did learn to play on them and Im sure the majority of us had our days on them as well. Perhaps our personal games have been refined so well that we only appreciate playing on great equipment that the 7 foot bangers havent torn up.

Hell i dunno much, i just know that i had to start somewhere... And it was in a smokey bowling alley with 6- 7' Valleys. I graduated onto a 9' and will never look back, but i sure do like when Joe Cool and his pocket chalker step onto my side of the pool room.
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I'm just hoping that there will be something to graduate to in the future (it's not looking good)!
 
jalapus logan said:
Its a different kind of challenge. Ever try 14.1 on a bar box? I did. Ran 50 something no problem in first couple tries and I'm no champ for sure. Felt cheap actually.

What about onepocket on a bar box? I tried that too. I played it with some good players. They took convincing to event attempt it. NOT the experience I was going for. BUT, that's all the bar had, so there you go.

And that pretty much sums it all up. Nothing really wrong with bar box 8 ball. But there is something wrong with that if that is the only game in town. Pool is a collection of games, not just 8 ball or 9 ball. Part of what holds my interest is the variety of skill sets required for the various disciplines. It can be argued that 8 ball on a bar box is a good game. Fine, I actually agree with that. BUT, 9 ball on a bar box is a joke, onepocket on a barbox is ridiculous, as is 14.1.

Like I said, I'm no champ. The most consecutive 8 ball break & runs I've ever managed to string together is 4 (this was on a 7' diamond smart table). And yes, that was fun. BUT, not as fun as putting up even a 2 pack of 9 ball on the big table. And NOT as fun as running 8 and out in onepocket on the big track. Running 4 or 5 banks on a small table is not as rewarding as doing the same on a 9 footer. Nor are table length draw shots as satisfying.

Bluntly, 7 foot pool is still pool, just more damn boring. And who likes that when there is a clear alternative? Maybe the formations of clubs are a possible solution? One can only hope...
Click to expand...

To run 50 on a bar table seems difficult to be honest- especially because there would be more tie ups to break out. You may not be a champ, but you must be a pretty good player.
 
IMO , here's the dealio : A combination of a few things, and to me it does not look like it's going to change any time soon. I believe regardless of everything else at the end of the day it just comes down to business - dollar$ & cent$.

The cost of commercial real estate to rent ( forget about buying ) has skyrocketed over the years. The cost of commercial space by the square foot is enormous. It does not matter in the least what any of us likes, thinks, despises, etc - the room owner needs to get $xxxxx return out of each square footage that he has and yes it takes quite a bit because pool tables and the additional space required for them is huge and if that does not happen the business will not be viable in a very short time. So can a pool table ( 7,8,9,10 foot rental price point per hour add up to $xxxxx at the end of the month to cover the nut? The vast majority of the time the answer is no. So where does the money come from then? Yes, alcohol of course. Alcohol is profitable , usually very profitable.

Now, think about it. Who is more likely to spend money? Two " players " in a match on a 9 foot - and they can be gambling or not - doesn't really matter. Odds are they are taking the game seriously because even if they are not in action they are probably trying to get some good practice in and alcohol pretty much is not in that equation . Then you have the leaguers, commonly referred to as " bangers ". More often than not the people in the leagues are in it for the fun, a night out, hang out with friends and be social. What goes perfectly with all of hose scenarios? You guessed it - our good buddy alcohol. Some on here may debate the percentage of leaguers that are drinking and that's fine for this conversation. My point being that there Def are some. Imo, probably most of them but at least the majority. So on league night between the at least two teams you have what 10-14 players total. Even if only half of those players drink and if each ONLY has 2 drinks apiece ( and we know that ain't happening ) those 2 or 3 or even 4 tables that are being used have now made exponentially more money than table time could ever dream of bringing in.

So that brings the obvious question : why can't we have our cake and eat it too? What I mean is why not just have the 9 footers for the league AND the players AND the alcohol. Well the answer is two fold. First and probably the most obvious is space. The room owners need to optimize the space available to them. The second, and Imo at least as important is the average league player IS SCARED TO DEATH of the 9 footer. No inclination to play on one what so ever. And to be honest, you think some of these matches between the 3's, 4's, and 5's take forever now - see if anyone could fade it on a fullsize. Not doggin anybody but in reality........... Anyhow, same as most other things - it just comes down to the money .
 
westcoast said:
To run 50 on a bar table seems difficult to be honest- especially because there would be more tie ups to break out. You may not be a champ, but you must be a pretty good player.
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14.1 on a nine footer is certainly harder than on a 7 foot table, IMO. That reminds me of a time, long, long ago in a galaxy, er, my basement far, well, just one floor below me now...uh, when I chronicled a random attempt at said game with my wife's flip camera.

You can check it out here if you wish to be bored. Damn, hard to believe that was over five years ago. How have I wasted my life hence? Well, I've been working three jobs, one full time, one part time, and one seasonal. Reflecting on this, it is a damn wonder that I ever find time to hold a cue, lol (weeping silently).

Life's all good. At the end of the day, I just like knocking balls around a table (preferably level). Well, that and a cold beer or two...
 
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BmoreMoney said:
IMO , here's the dealio : A combination of a few things, and to me it does not look like it's going to change any time soon. I believe regardless of everything else at the end of the day it just comes down to business - dollar$ & cent$.

The cost of commercial real estate to rent ( forget about buying ) has skyrocketed over the years. The cost of commercial space by the square foot is enormous. It does not matter in the least what any of us likes, thinks, despises, etc - the room owner needs to get $xxxxx return out of each square footage that he has and yes it takes quite a bit because pool tables and the additional space required for them is huge and if that does not happen the business will not be viable in a very short time. So can a pool table ( 7,8,9,10 foot rental price point per hour add up to $xxxxx at the end of the month to cover the nut? The vast majority of the time the answer is no. So where does the money come from then? Yes, alcohol of course. Alcohol is profitable , usually very profitable.

Now, think about it. Who is more likely to spend money? Two " players " in a match on a 9 foot - and they can be gambling or not - doesn't really matter. Odds are they are taking the game seriously because even if they are not in action they are probably trying to get some good practice in and alcohol pretty much is not in that equation . Then you have the leaguers, commonly referred to as " bangers ". More often than not the people in the leagues are in it for the fun, a night out, hang out with friends and be social. What goes perfectly with all of hose scenarios? You guessed it - our good buddy alcohol. Some on here may debate the percentage of leaguers that are drinking and that's fine for this conversation. My point being that there Def are some. Imo, probably most of them but at least the majority. So on league night between the at least two teams you have what 10-14 players total. Even if only half of those players drink and if each ONLY has 2 drinks apiece ( and we know that ain't happening ) those 2 or 3 or even 4 tables that are being used have now made exponentially more money than table time could ever dream of bringing in.

So that brings the obvious question : why can't we have our cake and eat it too? What I mean is why not just have the 9 footers for the league AND the players AND the alcohol. Well the answer is two fold. First and probably the most obvious is space. The room owners need to optimize the space available to them. The second, and Imo at least as important is the average league player IS SCARED TO DEATH of the 9 footer. No inclination to play on one what so ever. And to be honest, you think some of these matches between the 3's, 4's, and 5's take forever now - see if anyone could fade it on a fullsize. Not doggin anybody but in reality........... Anyhow, same as most other things - it just comes down to the money .
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You are correct, I am afraid.
 
Amen!!!!!!!

Break and One said:
I have read through the entire thread and some people have made some good comments and some others, well not so good comments.

Maybe my outlook is different than a lot of people's on here. I've mentioned before I've been playing for a little over 4 months. I must be spoiled. I have only been to one pool hall. They have 14 9' diamonds, 1 3 cushion and 12 7' diamonds.

I enjoy playing on the 9 foot tables. I like the challenge. I play in a Napa league on the 7 ft tables as well. I can see the pros and cons with both tables.

In my opinion, in my pool hall, the 7ft tables seem to bring in the money. The leagues play on these tables, as well as most of the casual people. I've never seen people waiting around for a 9ft table but I have for a 7ft table. A big thing is the casual player, a serious player is will to drive to play on a big table, the casual person is looks for convince cause they are playing for something to do, be it a date or with friends, they are having a good time not trying to prove. By keeping 7ft tables around you can accomplish that.

Two other things I noticed in this thread and want to bring up.

What's with all the negativity on league players? Like I said I'm new and in league so I don't understand. For the pool community the money seems to be in the leagues. League nights bring in a lot of people, these people spend money on food, drinks, and pool related items for sale. It sounds like some leagues have some extremely good players in them as well. I understand about the players who don't want to improve but honestly why do you care? Some people join a league just for the social aspect. They don't care about making it to Vegas or their win loss record. They just want to have fun. What's wrong with that and who is anyone to judge.

The second thing is people talking about the state of pool being quite poor. After reading a lot of responses in this thread, as well the whole forum, a huge problem seems to be negativity. Their are a lot of people on here who just hate on everything. You get new players seeing that and it's a huge turn off. Take sam lambert on here. As far as I am concerned he has never done anything wrong and actually posted some useful stuff but man has that kid been ridiculed.

Pool rooms are already like exclusive clubs to some degree. If you don't know someone, don't play lights out, or willing to give up your money to the better players, you are an outcast. why would the new players coming into the game have any desire to continue after the first encounter in the real pool world, not just a bar with a table. Don't get me wrong their are some great people out there but the bad ones seem to stick out more.

Everyone starts somewhere. Like the posted commented in this thread, if they see a pocket chalker and a cue claw they will take advantage. Why? What are so wrong with those item? ( I own neither) but now we are going to hate on the players who have them?

I have really enjoyed the game of pool in my short time and I do not post a ton on this forum. But some people can really be a turn off to this sport.

Sorry for the rant, I didn't shoot very well on my 8ft table tonight.
( best of both worlds haha).
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I prefer the 9' for the challenge of tight pockets and more green.

I also enjoy staying away from the 16 year old ninja wannabe twirling his stick around, as well as the drug addict whore trying to score her next hit.

I wanna be left alone to PRACTICE. i dont want bothered, i dont want you in my way. I dont want you waljing in front of me when im mid stroke. I dont want to hear your stupid stories about how drunk you were or how big her boobs were. I want to PRACTICE. I dont want to hear about how you won $10 on this shot last week. I dont want to show you trick shots. I want to PRACTICE, BE FOCUSED, AND CONCENTRATE.


Enjoy the 7 footers; thats why they are there. Learn the game, build your stroke, learn about shape. Take what you learn and challenge yourself to get better and them play on the 9' when youre serious about wanting to improve. If youre not wanting to imrpove, then stay on the 7' side of the room, and leave your drama and chaos there too.
 
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