Best 14:1 Player Ever-John Schmidt or Willie Mosconi?

[hangemhigh]

but anyone who thinks harriman,thorston, engert ,myself etc wouldnt have givin him all he could stand is dillusional .




Yeah, sonner or later he would have got winded carrying all of the cheese he won from you guys and would have asked you to stop giving. LOL

 

[Bobby]

They were both amazing runs by both Willie and John. But in my opinion, anyone that can beat Irving "Deacon" Crane's 309 in 1939 on a slow as mollases 5 x10 with clay balls would be the best ever.

Mosconi tied Crane's 309 also on a 5 x 10' table a couple of years after Crane did. And if I'm not mistaken Mosconi ran 353 also on a 5 x 10'. I agree the 300+ runs on a 5 x 10 are way more impressive than these runs today.

 

[john schmidt]

but anyone who thinks harriman,thorston, engert ,myself etc wouldnt have givin him all he could stand is dillusional .




Yeah, sonner or later he would have got winded carrying all of the cheese he won from you guys and would have asked you to stop giving. LOL

you have a right to your opinion.

all im saying is todays best are great and he would have to play perfect to beat us all. oh thats right he only played one guy each year to determine who was world champ.

your probably one of those people who think minnesota fats was a great player too.


try not too be a jealous hater type person it doesnt look good on you.

i havent even seen you yet but ive got a pretty good picture in my head.


middle aged ,plays like crap and hates anybody whos great at anything.

you should have no trouble though because millions are just like you . good luck in life youll need it.

 

[hangemhigh]

you have a right to your opinion.

all im saying is todays best are great and he would have to play perfect to beat us all. oh thats right he only played one guy each year to determine who was world champ.

your probably one of those people who think minnesota fats was a great player too.


try not too be a jealous hater type person it doesnt look good on you.

i havent even seen you yet but ive got a pretty good picture in my head.


middle aged ,plays like crap and hates anybody whos great at anything.

you should have no trouble though because millions are just like you . good luck in life youll need it.

What, no challenge giving me the back rail and the breaks for all I can stand? LOL

 

[sfleinen]

We haven't seen the best of John Schmidt yet -- that's the point

John:

Thanks for the quick reply and for the heads-up about facts. While it's true that it's human nature to revere legends of yesteryear even in the face of current champions accomplishing same or better achievements, this is usually done after the current champion has built a comparable resume.

In your case, although your accomplishments are by no means anemic, I (and many, many other fans) believe the surface has only been scratched as to what you're going to achieve -- the best is yet to come.

Willie's case is built on 30+ years of domination. Yes, dominating probably the "same eight guys" in the small round-robin tournaments (as you succinctly point out), but constant domination nonetheless -- for 30+ years straight. Perhaps it's unfortunate that the field is much, much larger now, and domination of this caliber may never happen again; along the lines of how Rocky Marciano dominated boxing -- undefeated -- during his time. But you won't hear much comparison of a young champion against Rocky Marciano unless he/she'd built up enough of a resume that would be sizable/comparable. Again, methinks the pool world is only beginning to see what you're capable of -- the best is yet to come!

Hope this helps explain this a little,
-Sean

i play in 64 man tourneys.
he played 8man round robins and one on one world title.

ive played like 5 14.1 tourneys in my whole life and we have 50 guys who play great so im sorry i havent won 50 world titles lol.

i havent run over 526 because ive play pool part time and part of that time i play 14.1 and only part of that time is on a loose enough table to run 500.

anyway its a shame that willie could not come back in his prime and play me 10ball,14.1 and onehole .

anyway i could run 769 tommorrow and win the next 10 straight pool tourneys and most
people will say hes the best and the rest of us couldnt carry his jock strap .

i understand its more fun to remember yesteryear that way. i have no hard feelings its human nature.


by the way willie could have had the rest of his life to run the 224 i ran on a diamond 9ft with year old cloth.


something to remember no sport ever that i can think of are the players from the past better than the players from the present.


the guys now days master several games we dont just play 14.1 . in fact i play it a couple times a year and on a good table im going to run 200 plus nearly everyday .

in closing willie by the fact that all he played was 14.1 in tiny fields of course he won more.

but anyone who thinks harriman,thorston, engert ,myself etc wouldnt have givin him all he could stand is dillusional .

 

[hangemhigh]

I'm glad you are ok with me not hating you.

 

[the420trooper]

i play in 64 man tourneys.
he played 8man round robins and one on one world title.

ive played like 5 14.1 tourneys in my whole life and we have 50 guys who play great so im sorry i havent won 50 world titles lol.

i havent run over 526 because ive play pool part time and part of that time i play 14.1 and only part of that time is on a loose enough table to run 500.

anyway its a shame that willie could not come back in his prime and play me 10ball,14.1 and onehole .

anyway i could run 769 tommorrow and win the next 10 straight pool tourneys and most
people will say hes the best and the rest of us couldnt carry his jock strap .

i understand its more fun to remember yesteryear that way. i have no hard feelings its human nature.


by the way willie could have had the rest of his life to run the 224 i ran on a diamond 9ft with year old cloth.


something to remember no sport ever that i can think of are the players from the past better than the players from the present.


the guys now days master several games we dont just play 14.1 . in fact i play it a couple times a year and on a good table im going to run 200 plus nearly everyday .

in closing willie by the fact that all he played was 14.1 in tiny fields of course he won more.

but anyone who thinks harriman,thorston, engert ,myself etc wouldnt have givin him all he could stand is dillusional .

This is the kind of input I was hoping for in this thread. Thanks John.

 

[LoGiC]

Some points to bring up here are:

A) 4x8 isn't necessarily easier. You have less space to negotiate the rack, you are shooting tighter. Try it magnified on a 3x7 (just a more common table today), and you'll understand the point real quick.

B) Today's players are far more diverse than yesterday's greats. Guys like John play far more games like he pointed out. They have to to make any kind of money/living today. There aren't too many 14.1 tournaments. Even IF he lost in 14.1 to willie, he could probably give up weight in a rotation game or 1-pocket. If John were to concentrate on 14.1 solely, then yes, I believe we would see him breaking willie's records consistently.

 

[Pushout]

Practice, exhibitions, how about Irving Crane's 150 and out against Joe Balsis in the final of a Straight Pool World Championship? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this has been duplicated.
Also, IIRC, Hal Houle said that Greenleaf ran an awful lot of 100 and 150, don't remember the number he told me now.

 

[wolfcookie]

Mosconi hands down..Schmidt is great but playing in mosconi;s days arent anything like today..Balls cloth all the things everybody has already posted..But if you ever got to see the man shoot as I did in 1967 you could answer this your self

 

[Ramin]

lets find the equipment!

There is no way John Schmidt and him would be able to go heads up so we can compare on today?s equipment how Willie would do. But one thing that we can do is remember what other sports do.
There is no way for anyone to compare Rocky Marciano, Mohammad Ali, Mike Tyson and Lennox Luis to each other because they were all from different eras and had different factors, physically and mentally, to deal with. But as far as any records set they have to beat them otherwise the record stands. That is why it is called a record.
Same in baseball and football and other sports. Records need to be beat.

Now in pool since we think that the equipment is more of a factor than anything else, maybe John can find a table that is 4 X 8 and nappy cloth and clay balls and try to break the record on the same equipment and I think he can. So find the person who has the equipment and set it up. It is good for the game and it is good for John to set the record with the same everything, than maybe people will see what John has done with 402 is tougher than what Willie has done with 500+.

 

[hangemhigh]

There is no way John Schmidt and him would be able to go heads up so we can compare on today?s equipment how Willie would do. But one thing that we can do is remember what other sports do.
There is no way for anyone to compare Rocky Marciano, Mohammad Ali, Mike Tyson and Lennox Luis to each other because they were all from different eras and had different factors, physically and mentally, to deal with. But as far as any records set they have to beat them otherwise the record stands. That is why it is called a record.
Same in baseball and football and other sports. Records need to be beat.

Now in pool since we think that the equipment is more of a factor than anything else, maybe John can find a table that is 4 X 8 and nappy cloth and clay balls and try to break the record on the same equipment and I think he can. So find the person who has the equipment and set it up. It is good for the game and it is good for John to set the record with the same everything, than maybe people will see what John has done with 402 is tougher than what Willie has done with 500+.

At one time, George Rood owned the equipment, maybe it is still around Ohio somewhere.

 

[Ramin]

well, i am not around this forum that much. but i am pretty sure that john will give it a try if the equipment is set up.

 

[sfleinen]

At one time, George Rood owned the equipment, maybe it is still around Ohio somewhere.

Ah! Talk about someone who can personally attest to the playing difficulty of this older equipment, and is probably the last human still alive that has personally played Ralph Greenleaf -- George Rood! I'm sure if George no longer has this equipment, it can be found somewhere.

Or, at least set up a table similarly -- same pocket cut -- using nap cloth (like that which Gorina made for the IPT), and I'm sure a set of clay balls can be found somewhere. Great idea!

P.S.: it's "nap" cloth. "Nappy" refers to somebody's hairdo, or in the UK / Australia it's a diaper.

 

[Celtic]

Willie grew up playing on 5x10's thats one of the reasons the pockets where bigger. Lets see john break 400 on a 10 footer first. As long as mosconi holds the record he is better.

While I agree that Willie is better I disagree entirely on "WHY" he is better and the whole thread's reasoning.

Once you are running 300+ balls you are playing ridiculously good straight pool and if things go well anyone who can do 300+ can do 500 or 600 or even 1000 if luck just seems to shine that day. Does that one single run make that person the best in the world? No, it gives them a nice record but if their second highest run is 200 and some other guy out there has 50 400+ runs I have to go with the guy without the record high run and the far more consistent high run rate.

Willie Mosconi is the greatest because he won 15 World Championships in between 1941 and 1957. He basically dominated the sport for 15 straight years. Noone since him has come even close to that kind of dominance over this sport. And more then anything he was stopped by a stroke and a self imposed retirement.

His high run is irrelevant when you compare it to the huge number of 100+ runs on 5x10 tables in the world championships in front of huge crowds against top quality opponents. THOSE are the runs that really matter, not his exhibition run or the practice runs anyone else does today. If some person manages to suddenly start snapping off huge numbers of 100+ runs in true 14.1 pro competitions and dominate the sport like Mosconi did then that is awesome and they are worth comparing to him. But noone alive is anywhere near that level atm, Sigel might have been close in his prime.

The runs that matter are the ones done under the pressure and for the championships, and Mosconi is far and away the best pressure Straight pool player the world ever saw. He made alot of 150 and outs when they mattered.

 

[Cuebacca]

Using Willie's equipment is an interesting idea and it would certainly provide the potential for a fair comparison of runs to be made, but why not just let sleeping dogs lie? In a way it seems like the only reason to do this is to prove a point and maybe to make Willie Mosconi turn over in his grave.

I can't speak for John Schmidt, but it seems to me that it would just be a chore to have to spend all that time with the crappy equipment. It would really take a LOT of spite to fuel such a venture (unless someone put up some money to be won).

What is the reward? Warm fuzzy feelings are nice, but the man's got to put food on his table, and I doubt anyone would claim he could break the run on his first try. Spending days (months?, years?) on obsolete equipment doesn't seem to be a productive use of a pro player's time.

I say let the sport continue to progress with high performance equipment until someone wants to put up enough dough to make it worth it for today's champions to go back to the stone age gear for a while. Just my humble opinion.

 

[AtLarge]

Posters keep saying that Willie's run of 526 ended without a miss -- that he just stopped because of fatigue.

In his autobiography, "Willie's Game," Willie (with co-author Stanley Cohen) writes: "I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end."

Does anyone believe that his autobiography is wrong about this?

 

[unknownpro]

Wasn't it a Brunswick Sport King table? What size are the pockets? I grew up playing on those. Anybody have a picture of the pockets openings? I know where a 9 footer is I used to have and I sold three 8 footers way before I knew Mosconi's record was on that type table.

I think it would be a mistake to assume that Mosconi would not be able to compete in rotation games. Rotation was played A LOT back in the day when pool was charged by the game with rack boys. Rotation was THE major game in the South where I grew up. Eight ball and nine ball were for the noobs that couldn't make 15 balls in an hour. Wouldn't it have been at least the 2nd major game nationwide in Mosconi's era?

 

[Celtic]

in closing willie by the fact that all he played was 14.1 in tiny fields of course he won more.

but anyone who thinks harriman,thorston, engert ,myself etc wouldnt have givin him all he could stand is dillusional .

Tiny fields of the 8 best 14.1 players in the world at the time of the World Championships you mean?

So lets just pretend for a second that 14.1 was still the main game, paid relative money to what it did back then, and we built a 8 man field.

Keep in mind that as THE main game the players who dominate 9-ball or 10-ball atm would be the guys playing 14.1 at world class level because they go where the money is and so this is a Reyes who actually practiced and played the game for the last 20+ years exclusively, same with all of them.

We have Hohman, Reyes, SVB, Souquet, Orcollo, Yang, Wu, and Schmidt.

There is our 8 person field for this year John, round robin, you need to not only win this one, but you basically need to dominate fields like this for 15 years straight. Sounds easy, I mean it is a tiny field right? Because that is exactly what Mosconi did, he dominated the sport when 14.1 was THE game and the money was relatively alot higher then it is now.

If ANYONE had the speed and skill to be the dominate player that Mosconi was in our era it is Reyes, he is the only person I could see going multiple years of taking the 8 top players and winning time after time after time. If he had focused on 14.1 I do think he might have been that good, but if he had of focused on the game like that do you seriously think you would have been the equal of Reyes? Sorry man, you would have been his Caras or Ponzi and he would have been the Mosconi.

Different era's give people more opportunities, we play with different equipment. But when you compare era's you have to do so with this in mind.

If Jack Nicklaus was born in 1980 and focused on golf as he did in his actual era where would he be today? My thoughts are that he would be giving Tiger a run for his money because Jack is now playing with 2009 custom made clubs just like Tiger, he has trainers and nutrition experts just like Tiger, and he is going to have the rewards from those things, just like Tiger.

I doubt you would like to play with the old clay balls Willie had to deal with, doubt you would think much of the cues of that era or the cloth.

I imagine if you took a "in his prime" Mosconi and brought him into a pool hall, stuck a South West cue into his hands, got him on a Diamond 4.5x9 with simonis cloth he would think he had died and gone to pool playing heaven. After a short while of getting down the new speed of the tables and the way you can spin the balls on modern equippment he would be like Mosconi of old, only now playing on better equippment and shooting even better because of it. Give him some time to spar against the new breed and before too long rest assured he would be at the top of the game yet again because that is what he did.

The best of an era have a certain something that noone else has. It goes beyond the insane skill, they have a drive to win that goes beyond what all the other players have and it is what leads people to dominate a sport. Mosconi was a Gretsky, he was a Nicklaus, he was a Bjorg, he was far and away the best at what he did in a land full of pro's that could not keep up to him.

 

[Sam Waltz]

All I hear everytime the comparison of our past champions vs. today's modern day professionals is the same ol' lines. This equipment B.S. on and on and on and on and fricken' ON!

Realize this...watch John Schmidt or Danny Harriman's strokes or any of the other modern professionals who perform the way they do because of a mechanical and efficient delivery of the cueball on each and every stroke...then just try and convince me that those strokes couldn't perform equally to or even superiorly to that of Willie's!

I don't need to resurrect a hero of the game and put him in the ring with today's professionals. What I'd like to do is jump in the ol' Deloreon time machine, kick up 1.21 jigawatts from a local lightning bolt and cruise into the past with a couple superstrokers so we could all see just what a fundamentally sound modern day professional pool player COULD do with the always mentioned dastardly clay balls and nappy @#$ cloth of the long lost heros of the past!

Well, thats just my opinion so go on and hold yours to your heart as I'll do with mine and since none of us will ever know who's right we can just die with our own convictions on this all too often raised debate.

LOL and next time I might even tell ya how I really feel about it!

Enjoy the game and keep on playin' folks, but don't ever forget why you play this game. It's a lifetime commitment ya know...