Best 14:1 Player Ever-John Schmidt or Willie Mosconi?

[john schmidt]

Tiny fields of the 8 best 14.1 players in the world at the time of the World Championships you mean?

So lets just pretend for a second that 14.1 was still the main game, paid relative money to what it did back then, and we built a 8 man field.

Keep in mind that as THE main game the players who dominate 9-ball or 10-ball atm would be the guys playing 14.1 at world class level because they go where the money is and so this is a Reyes who actually practiced and played the game for the last 20+ years exclusively, same with all of them.

We have Hohman, Reyes, SVB, Souquet, Orcollo, Yang, Wu, and Schmidt.

There is our 8 person field for this year John, round robin, you need to not only win this one, but you basically need to dominate fields like this for 15 years straight. Sounds easy, I mean it is a tiny field right? Because that is exactly what Mosconi did, he dominated the sport when 14.1 was THE game and the money was relatively alot higher then it is now.

If ANYONE had the speed and skill to be the dominate player that Mosconi was in our era it is Reyes, he is the only person I could see going multiple years of taking the 8 top players and winning time after time after time. If he had focused on 14.1 I do think he might have been that good, but if he had of focused on the game like that do you seriously think you would have been the equal of Reyes? Sorry man, you would have been his Caras or Ponzi and he would have been the Mosconi.

Different era's give people more opportunities, we play with different equipment. But when you compare era's you have to do so with this in mind.

If Jack Nicklaus was born in 1980 and focused on golf as he did in his actual era where would he be today? My thoughts are that he would be giving Tiger a run for his money because Jack is now playing with 2009 custom made clubs just like Tiger, he has trainers and nutrition experts just like Tiger, and he is going to have the rewards from those things, just like Tiger.

I doubt you would like to play with the old clay balls Willie had to deal with, doubt you would think much of the cues of that era or the cloth.

I imagine if you took a "in his prime" Mosconi and brought him into a pool hall, stuck a South West cue into his hands, got him on a Diamond 4.5x9 with simonis cloth he would think he had died and gone to pool playing heaven. After a short while of getting down the new speed of the tables and the way you can spin the balls on modern equippment he would be like Mosconi of old, only now playing on better equippment and shooting even better because of it. Give him some time to spar against the new breed and before too long rest assured he would be at the top of the game yet again because that is what he did.

The best of an era have a certain something that noone else has. It goes beyond the insane skill, they have a drive to win that goes beyond what all the other players have and it is what leads people to dominate a sport. Mosconi was a Gretsky, he was a Nicklaus, he was a Bjorg, he was far and away the best at what he did in a land full of pro's that could not keep up to him.

i decided to play 14.1 alot.

if the top 9ball players decided to play nothing but 14.1 all the time trust me they wouldnt be any better than say hohmann or me.

sorry to burst your bubble.


another thing danny diliberto was doing a player review with me on my 169.

he said the players today are better than the players from that era.

hes been around for 40 years so im going to go with his and my opinion over yours.

by the way have you ever seen me or mosconi play for days on end in person like danny has.

you probably have not.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

first off if i played on a 4x8 for 30 years and 526 was the best i could do i would be pissed.

willie was the best ever i am nowhere near him and neither is anyplayer today.

now thats settled i feel better lol

 

[sfleinen]

first off if i played on a 4x8 for 30 years and 526 was the best i could do i would be pissed.

willie was the best ever i am nowhere near him and neither is anyplayer today.

now thats settled i feel better lol

John:

Willie played on a 5'x10' for 30 years, not a 4'x8'. The 526 was done on a 4'x8' as part of an exhibition; it is the equipment that was handed to him, not that he had a choice in it. (Knowing how strongly opinionated Willie was, I'm sure if he were given a choice, he would've asked for a 5'x10'. :smile: )

Having pride in your abilities is to be admired, however, and I'm sure is a driving factor in your success. As mentioned previously in regards to this, "more is yet to come..."

-Sean

 

[metallicane]

John -

I have met you (you won't remember, but so what) and I thought you were a nice guy. I bought your DVDs and I think they are terrific. You are a terrific player and I can't wait to see what kinds of runs you have in the future. But I think you need to not be so defensive. Even comparing you to Mosconi should be a HUGE compliment. Having someone say Mosconi was better should not get you fired up. You are a great player. Let the negative stuff slide off. You are better than that. I do believe you will be the one to surpass the 526 also.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Willie gets my vote based not on the number 526 but on the number 15.

 

[the420trooper]

The 420 has clouded you judgement severely.

Hamgem, I have never personally insulted you before. I agree with you on a lot of things....BUT....Couldn't you have just said "I disagree with you because...."

I could say something smart like "What's your excuse?", ( And I thought about it), but I try not to insult others for simply disagreeing with me.

Michael

 

[hangemhigh]

Hamgem, I have never personally insulted you before. I agree with you on a lot of things....BUT....Couldn't you have just said "I disagree with you because...."

I could say something smart like "What's your excuse?", ( And I thought about it), but I try not to insult others for simply disagreeing with me.

Michael

Michael, I got thick skin, so don't hold back. You are proud of your 420 life, so just fire it up and laugh it off. That wasn't really an insult, unless you wanted to take it that way.

 

[Zagiflyer]

first off if i played on a 4x8 for 30 years and 526 was the best i could do i would be pissed.

willie was the best ever i am nowhere near him and neither is anyplayer today.

now thats settled i feel better lol

John;

Nobody here is saying that you aren't a fantastic player with incredible talent and you are still young. Mosconi started playing as a child and you picked the game up at a later age and can run 400+ balls, that's incredible by anyone's standards, even Mosconi's. You have won tournaments in multiple formats against great players and you have nothing to prove so don't take any of this personally.

I think that we can all agree on this; if Mosconi could come back from the dead and be in his prime and you guys played some 14.1 we would all love to see it and it would be a great game. I think that your ability and explosive offense would be respected by Mosconi or any of the old guys from that era. Both you and Mosconi would be a threat to win the game in one inning if given an opportunity to get going, you are (were in Willie's case) both fast, agressive, powerful, explosive, exciting players. I'm not saying Mosconi had it easier with the small field and you shouldn't either but the fact is that we will probably never see that format again with players who play 14.1 almost exclusively so direct comparisons will be tough to make. Congratulations on your DCC one pocket victory.

I for one hope that you or somebody beats Mosconi's 526 exhibition record because I think that records are meant to be broken. If anyone is going to do it you would be at the top of the list. Don't take these discussions too seriously John, all of us amateurs need something to discuss and argue about. Hell, it's my dream to run 30 and you can run 400+ and 100+ on a daily basis so you really don't need to worry too much about my opinion. You are right, you have the capability to give anyone who has ever played 14.1 all that they can handle and then some if you are on your game; I think that we can ALL agree on that.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

John -

I have met you (you won't remember, but so what) and I thought you were a nice guy. I bought your DVDs and I think they are terrific. You are a terrific player and I can't wait to see what kinds of runs you have in the future. But I think you need to not be so defensive. Even comparing you to Mosconi should be a HUGE compliment. Having someone say Mosconi was better should not get you fired up. You are a great player. Let the negative stuff slide off. You are better than that. I do believe you will be the one to surpass the 526 also.

i feel you and i am being defensive and shouldnt.

thing is i just won a massive tourney with 350 players .

even though i havent played a tourney in 3 months and spent most of my time on my dirt bike.

point is when someone starts a thread and says congrats john on winning the tourney like 3 people chime in a say good shooting.


when someone compares me to willie 25 people chime in and say im not even in the same caliber,and go on for 2 pages talking how inferior i am.


why im looking for approval from people who are very ignorant and have trouble running 50 shows what a moron i can be sometimes.most of them like sjm mean well but have no clue sometimes.

like many have said im not in mosconis league.

well diliberto says i am .

well sjm for example is a nice guy but i dont put his opinion lightyears near dilibertos. sorry stu.

anyway threads like this remind me why i leave this site alone and hang out on thumpertalk.its a dirtbike forum where the pros are worshiped and not bashed constantly.

im going dirtbiking this whole next week and am not going to be on here thank god.


you guys can bash away as im going to be flying through the desert going 50-70 miles an hour trying not to die , nowhere near a computer.actually living life instead of talking about it.

i swear if i wreck and land on a cactus doing 60 it would be less aggravating than reading some of the insulting crap on here.


from now on i have a new rule i will only reply to people who use a real name.

that limits it to about 4 guys .

thats great as i hate to type.

im not telling everybody off ,just the haters . you know who you are.

everybody else on here is great but im done being the target on here.

have fun bash away

 

[MVPCues]

You know what would be sweet? Just like they did a computerized remix or something about boxers of yesterday fighting todays champions...I wonder if they can do that with pool? I know it is not accurate but it sure would be fun to watch....:thumbup:

To be honest, this would feasible. If enough video exists to take data and build probabilities for certain situations, run outs, safeties, kicks, banks, zones where balls are left after a break, enough data to predict what each player would do in certain situations ie go for it or duck, etc, simulations could be programmed. It would be a massive amount of data, with massive probability matrices, but the end result could be quite a show. Simulations like this over the long run, imo, would be just as accurate as pitting them together for real for only one match to determine who would be the best.

Kelly

 

[SpiderWebComm]

i feel you and i am being defensive and shouldnt.

thing is i just won a massive tourney with 350 players .

even though i havent played a tourney in 3 months and spent most of my time on my dirt bike.

point is when someone starts a thread and says congrats john on winning the tourney like 3 people chime in a say good shooting.


when someone compares me to willie 25 people chime in and say im not even in the same caliber,and go on for 2 pages talking how inferior i am.


why im looking for approval from people who are very ignorant and have trouble running 50 shows what a moron i can be sometimes.most of them like sjm mean well but have no clue sometimes.

like many have said im not in mosconis league.

well diliberto says i am .

well sjm for example is a nice guy but i dont put his opinion lightyears near dilibertos. sorry stu.

anyway threads like this remind me why i leave this site alone and hang out on thumpertalk.its a dirtbike forum where the pros are worshiped and not bashed constantly.

im going dirtbiking this whole next week and am not going to be on here thank god.


you guys can bash away as im going to be flying through the desert going 50-70 miles an hour trying not to die , nowhere near a computer.actually living life instead of talking about it.

i swear if i wreck and land on a cactus doing 60 it would be less aggravating than reading some of the insulting crap on here.


from now on i have a new rule i will only reply to people who use a real name.

that limits it to about 4 guys .

thats great as i hate to type.

im not telling everybody off ,just the haters . you know who you are.

everybody else on here is great but im done being the target on here.

have fun bash away

You can beat any person on earth on any given day at any game having to do with round shit and holes. That's good enough for me. Hope to see ya at the expo.

Dave

 

[cardiac kid]

when someone compares me to willie 25 people chime in and say im not even in the same caliber,and go on for 2 pages talking how inferior i am.

John, a poster expressed his opinion and several people responded with theirs. No one who knows you or has watched your exceptional abilities at 14.1 would consider you inferior.

why im looking for approval from people who are very ignorant and have trouble running 50 shows what a moron i can be sometimes.most of them like sjm mean well but have no clue sometimes.

I certainly hope you don't look outwards for your personal validation. You are one of the best of our generation. No one can take that away from you. I don't care whether you are better or as good as or whatever with Willie. You are a great player period!

anyway threads like this remind me why i leave this site alone and hang out on thumpertalk.its a dirtbike forum where the pros are worshiped and not bashed constantly.

Worshiped?

 

[Zagiflyer]

Hey John;

I'm an old motocross racer myself, be careful on that bike. Riding is a blast and it's great fun but I saw a few guys end up in wheelchairs...have fun but be careful. You are greatly appreciated in the pool world and you are one of the best so don't let this stuff bother you, just shrug it off. Remember, your ability at this game is only matched by a handful of people in the whole world. How many people can say that they are that good at anything? This is just an innocent, hypothetical discussion, and the fact is that Mosconi is dead and you are still here with many, many years to build your legacy. Someday 60 years from now people will be arguing if Joe Blow, the hot new young 14.1 player, is as good as John Schmidt or Thorsten was. I, for one, appreciate your love of 14.1 and how it's helped bring the game back.

As I said before, if Mosconi was here today and had to play you he would respect your game (and how you conduct yourself which I why I hate to see you arguing with us wannabees) and I know damn well that your modern opponents do so don't worry about what some of the rest of us say. The bottom line for all of us here is that if you came to our town to play pool we would be lined up to get in and see you play!

 

[Celtic]

i feel you and i am being defensive and shouldnt.

thing is i just won a massive tourney with 350 players .

<snip>

im not telling everybody off ,just the haters . you know who you are.

everybody else on here is great but im done being the target on here.

have fun bash away

You played great at the DCC, I am not sure what you even feel the need to defend yourself on. You are being compared to argueably the greatest pool player to ever pick up a cue.

Seriously, what the hell, if you compared Ernie Els to Jack Nicklaus Ernie would probably say "Jack was the man, I am good but he was in another league". It is a sign of respect and the ability to accept reality.

You get compared to Efren Reyes and say you would be every bit as good as a Efren Reyes would have been had he focused on straight pool? I mean come on man, NOONE in the 1990's would have been at his level in that game had he focused on it, not Archer, not Strickland, not Souqet, not Engert, not Hohman, and no man not you either. Under the pressure and in tournament play he would have done the same thing he did in 9-ball and that is be the number 1 player, win more then his share of the events, and have to spot anyone and everyone to get a money match.

And what you seem to not be understanding is that the above is not a cut, noone is saying you are not a great pool player. You are simply not the legend those guys are. You have some great wins, but those guys in their good years did not win 2 or 3 events, they won 10 or more. They did not have a Danny Harriman barking at them for action, noone in the world wanted anything to do with playing them even for cash. When the World 9-ball championships was about to start Efren was the favorite on the betting sites for a reason man.

For cripe sakes, tell Mike Weir "heya man you are a great player but Jack Nicklaus was better" and he would reply "no shit, that guy was awesome". But you, no no, tell you the same thing and you get "wtf, you saying I suck? Jack has no game, every pro these days is better then him, he would hate life if he had to play all of us in this era".

I am not sure if you are grasping what a complete lack of respect you are showing and how delusional it all sounds. Yes you are good, but no, you are not an equal to the most successful and winning straight pool player to ever pick up a cue at the peak of 14.1's golden era. If you think that is a cut on your skills you need to go see a friggin shrink.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You played great at the DCC, I am not sure what you even feel the need to defend yourself on. You are being compared to argueably the greatest pool player to ever pick up a cue.

Seriously, what the hell, if you compared Ernie Els to Jack Nicklaus Ernie would probably say "Jack was the man, I am good but he was in another league". It is a sign of respect and the ability to accept reality.

You get compared to Efren Reyes and say you would be every bit as good as a Efren Reyes would have been had he focused on straight pool? I mean come on man, NOONE in the 1990's would have been at his level in that game had he focused on it, not Archer, not Strickland, not Souqet, not Engert, not Hohman, and no man not you either. Under the pressure and in tournament play he would have done the same thing he did in 9-ball and that is be the number 1 player, win more then his share of the events, and have to spot anyone and everyone to get a money match.

And what you seem to not be understanding is that the above is not a cut, noone is saying you are not a great pool player. You are simply not the legend those guys are. You have some great wins, but those guys in their good years did not win 2 or 3 events, they won 10 or more. They did not have a Danny Harriman barking at them for action, noone in the world wanted anything to do with playing them even for cash. When the World 9-ball championships was about to start Efren was the favorite on the betting sites for a reason man.

For cripe sakes, tell Mike Weir "heya man you are a great player but Jack Nicklaus was better" and he would reply "no shit, that guy was awesome". But you, no no, tell you the same thing and you get "wtf, you saying I suck? Jack has no game, every pro these days is better then him, he would hate life if he had to play all of us in this era".

I am not sure if you are grasping what a complete lack of respect you are showing and how delusional it all sounds. Yes you are good, but no, you are not an equal to the most successful and winning straight pool player to ever pick up a cue at the peak of 14.1's golden era. If you think that is a cut on your skills you need to go see a friggin shrink.

That's totally different. You're comparing apples to walnuts. Of course everyone would say Jack's better than Mike. To put it into the proper pool light... Jack would be a multiple 400-ball runner with countless 200's and Mike Weir might have run 130-out in a tournament for a few times when it counted. To put Mike and Jack in the same sentence is like putting me in the same sentence as John Holmes - it's the joke of the galaxy.

However, whenever you put someone who has crossed the 400-ball sound barrier a few times in the same sentence as _______ (pick your fav legend), it's worthy of a thread to pick the comparison apart.

It's funny, when someone croaks they used to play better and better every year that goes by. OF COURSE Mosconi played top echelon straight pool! But, I wish I could dig that guy up and prop him up with some crutches and duct-tape to play in an all-around challenge with Schmidt. Call me a sucker but Mosconi at his best had the worst of it in 9-ball, 10-ball and way the worst of it in 1P against John. 50/50 coin flip in a race to 150 - Mosconi didn't "have" to win.

Finally, there's more competition today world-wide than there was in 1940. Filipinos couldn't spell pool back then, and I'd spot them the "OOL". So, just because someone doesn't have X number of 14.1 world championships doesn't mean they couldn't beat Mosconi at his best.

Heck, I'm sure there were some years Mosconi didn't even play in a tournament and prob said he won the world championship for that year...or played 1 guy a 1000 pt match or something.

Not knocking Mosconi - but people have this guy on an angel cloud because of his 526 or whatever it was. Send him in an annual world 14.1 with Schmidt, Hohmann, Engert, Ortmann, Harriman, Hopkins, Souquet, Sigel, and Varner and see if he can get there 15 times. just my humble opinion.

p.s. don't forget Bustamante, and he doesn't even play the game and look what he did at the last 14.1

 

[sjm]

...... well sjm for example is a nice guy but i dont put his opinion lightyears near dilibertos. sorry stu......

No apology required, John. You are a very nice guy, too, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Still, the truth is that, likely unbeknownst to you, I'm comparing you to players that I myself watched often. I've been around straight pool since 1966. That means that, just like DiLiberto, I've been around the game for over 40 years. I've attended over ten different world 14.1 championships live, having attended every day of play in every single one of them. As a youth, I spent a lot of time aorund Irving Crane, Jack Colavita, and Mike Eufemia, counting them as good friends. As a regular at the Golden Q in Queens, NY, I saw virtually all of the great straight poolers play frequently.

I saw all of the following play straight pool in their primes: Crane, Lassiter, Cranfield, Sigel, Martin, Mizerak, Hopkins, Varner, Balsis, Rempe, Butera, DiLiberto and West. I could tell you about the styles and tendencies of most of them, and would be happy to do so when we meet next if it interests you.

My assessments of players are not pie in the sky guesses, but comparisons of players that I watched often.

I can tell you with complete certainty that there are very few people who've seen more world championship 14.1 play since 1975 than me, and those few who have know me well (at least by sight), as I always saw them at these events.

I am, as you suggest, less qualified than some to pass judgment on the most elite players, but I am more qualified than most, and when I catch up with the old-timers of the straight pool era, I find my views on the players of yore and their strengths and weaknesses to be quite similar to theirs.

Guess all I'm saying is that my opinion on straight pool's old timers would qualify as educated in the eyes of most so I'll continue to chime in when threads like this one are in play, more than willing to chance that someone will find an amateur's opinion to be unworthy of consideration.

.... most of all, John, I wish you continued success in your purusit of excellence. It was nice seeing you at the DCC and congratulations on snapping off the one pocket event. I think of you as a friend, as you always greet me as such, and hope that will continue to be the case. And, of course, I look forward to seeing you hoist the championship trophy at the next World 14.1 Championships.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

The record is mosconi's and until it comes down, he is the best. End of discussion

Id like to see john give it a try on similar equipment, but until then its still Mosconis.

 

[Celtic]

That's totally different. You're comparing apples to walnuts. Of course everyone would say Jack's better than Mike. To put it into the proper pool light... Jack would be a multiple 400-ball runner with countless 200's and Mike Weir might have run 130-out in a tournament for a few times when it counted.

Umm huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Weir

Won the Masters, has 8 wins on the PGA tour, was once ranked 3rd in the entire world in golf rankings?

Equivalent to a 130 ball runner a couple times when it counted?

Seriously?

You just 1 upped the whole thread on foolish comments.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

Posters keep saying that Willie's run of 526 ended without a miss -- that he just stopped because of fatigue.

In his autobiography, "Willie's Game," Willie (with co-author Stanley Cohen) writes: "I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end."

Does anyone believe that his autobiography is wrong about this?

Ive read it both ways, Its been a while since I read mosconis book but I just finished Billiards (huslers,hereos,legends......) by john grissim. and thats where I got the reference. Id beleive Mosoni's book first though

 

[Rich93]

John Schmidt doesn't go around saying that he is better than Mosconi. And he didn't ask for a thread where the OP proclaims that John is better than Mosconi. But the thread happened. So a lot of people disagree, and to make their case they argue that Willie's accomplishments far outshine John's. John gets pissed, and he argues back in a way that downgrades Willie's accomplishments. And the argument escalates. I wish John would have let it all pass.

Whenever Mosconi was asked if he thought he was the greatest player who ever lived, he would always respond "I don't know - that's for others to say". Of course, he actually did think he was the best ever, but he didn't feel he had to say it. Or maybe he felt that saying it would just lead to a endless and un-winnable argument.

I think John Schmidt is a great player and, though I've never met him, a nice guy (probably a lot nicer than Mosconi). I hope he continues to post. He's one of the few pros who post, and most of the others only do so when they have an ulterior motive. He honors us by joining in - I just wish he hadn't joined this one.