Best bar table player with the big rock?

[JAM]

Now, it is none of them

LOL. Ask the players at the action table at the Super Billiards Expo in Valley Forge about who they deem as a proficient bar-box mechanic. Last year, the first night of the event, Keith McCready held the table for a spell until the wee hours of the morning. Nobody else would challenge the table, and the action ended, a first in my experience of going to the SBE. Later on in the week, he ran two 11's and one 10 on the 3-1/2-by-7 Diamond table.

As well, the Pro/Am tournament, played on bar tables, Shannon Daulton rose to the top. Can't leave out Shannon Daulton when it comes to veteran bar table players. Though he's a young'n in my book, he comes to the table with a whole lot of experience and expertise. I was totally impressed with Shannon's game on the bar box.

My counterpart, a veteran player with the big rock, tells me he thinks Jesse Bowman is the best in the land on the bar table today.

There are quite a few unsung heroes on the bar table, some relatively unknown unless you hail from their neck of the woods. Here's a shot of the action table at last year's Super Billiards Expo. Gold star goes to who can name the player in the gray shirt to the left of the table. Rumor has it that he left Valley Forge with full pockets. Standing room only and total pool bliss for all those in attendance.

Now here's a question for you. When is the last time you've seen a bar table with a big rock? I ain't seen one in YEARS.

JAM

 

[Island Drive]

I lived in Colo for several years and the Dick you refer to is Dick Henry and when Dick was right, he was absolutely awesome and maybe one of the most incredible characters ever in the game. If you ever get the chance, just ask Grady about him, he would probably know more about Dick than anyone living now.
Way back in the middle 70's, I staked Stevens against Dick in the old Centennial Billiards on Santa Fe in Denver and it is an event I will never forget as long as I live. Both had their mixtures so messed up and it was just absolutely hillarious to watch. Greg fot the cash, but it was not pretty.
Dick was though, on the right day, as good as anyone could be. But that is also kind of the way bar pool was back in those days.

Dick was never in the Matlock/Kiether catagory, I saw Jerry Brock empty out Dick Henry in the early 70's and don't forget about the Goose and Fat Randy for other pretty dam good bar players.

 

[vagabond]

LOL
Now here's a question for you. When is the last time you've seen a bar table with a big rock? I ain't seen one in YEARS.

JAM

There is a seat reserved permanently for Keith in the history of pool.No one can take that away.It is good to know that he is still strong on bar table.
I have not seen a big rock for ages.
Shanon can do lot of things in pool than people realize.They think he is only a one pocket player.Real people know what he is capable of.


Since no one is mentioning about Jason Kirkwood ( Michigan)&Richie Smiegal ( Bay city, MI) & Barry Emerson ( washington ? or Dallas,TX), steak horses can make lots of money if these guys were taken on the road.

 

[EL'nino]

Tony Watson

 

[Mike Templeton]

Tony Watson

I don't think it's Tony, but the since Tony has lived in NC and SC recently, the picture does have a "Carolina" feel to it. That looks like Ron Parks from Charlotte, NC in the NY Yankee hat, and there is a gentleman to the left of the picture with "Cocks" on the back of his hat (South Carolina Gamecocks). It looks more like Tony in the gray striped shirt.

The picture is kinda blurred, but my best guess would be Jamie Baraks, although I don't think that is right either.

Tell us, Jam...................................

 

[Rod]

I lived in Colo for several years and the Dick you refer to is Dick Henry and when Dick was right, he was absolutely awesome and maybe one of the most incredible characters ever in the game. If you ever get the chance, just ask Grady about him, he would probably know more about Dick than anyone living now.
Way back in the middle 70's, I staked Stevens against Dick in the old Centennial Billiards on Santa Fe in Denver and it is an event I will never forget as long as I live. Both had their mixtures so messed up and it was just absolutely hillarious to watch. Greg fot the cash, but it was not pretty.
Dick was though, on the right day, as good as anyone could be. But that is also kind of the way bar pool was back in those days.

I lived in Colorado Springs. During my early pool years (60's) Dick would come up and play once in a while, he was from Pueblo. All the locals took notice when he showed up. Dick had an incredible stroke, man that guy was loose. I don't think he was quite the player in those years but that fat boy could play. Dick usually played golf, I'd imagine because the local guys didn't want any part of him on a pool table.

Watching a game one day Dick loaded up on a snooker table length draw, the ball hopped a little from the force, sat there and then sucked back across the table. I thought wow I got to get me one of those, (strokes). I think he was the first guy I saw shoot one hell of a masse shot during one of those games. I left Colo early on, sorry to hear he ended up in a nut house, (if he did) he always seemed to be a real nice guy. As a side note Jim Gravel, a good player in his own rights (from Colo Springs) was one of few that tangled with Dick. My style of game/stroke come from both these guys.

Rod

 

[JAM]

There is a seat reserved permanently for Keith in the history of pool....

I was compelled to reply to an unsubstantiated statement: "Now it is none of them." Those who know me well are aware that I don't like to gamble too much. I'm a realist and enjoy having a roof over my head. Thank the good Lord, I have no addiction to games of stake, but I can tell you this, whenever I'm on the road and an opportunity presents itself on a 3-1/2-by-7 field of green, I would not hesitate to reach deep in my pockets and put my horse in the pit. Ironically, I never saw him play when he was in his twenties, beating every big name that came to California, but today at 48 years of age, don't discount the Earthquake on a bar table, especially if you happen to like your dough.

Picture courtesy of PoolPics by Hoppe! I like the purple shirt and colorful balls, with Efren standing in the background.

JAM

 

[vagabond]

I was compelled to reply to an unsubstantiated statement: "Now it is none of them." Those who know me well are aware that I don't like to gamble too much. I'm a realist and enjoy having a roof over my head. Thank the good Lord, I have no addiction to games of stake, but I can tell you this, whenever I'm on the road and an opportunity presents itself on a 3-1/2-by-7 field of green, I would not hesitate to reach deep in my pockets and put my horse in the pit. Ironically, I never saw him play when he was in his twenties, beating every big name that came to California, but today at 48 years of age, don't discount the Earthquake on a bar table, especially if you happen to like your dough.

Picture courtesy of PoolPics by Hoppe! I like the purple shirt and colorful balls, with Efren standing in the background.

JAM

Becarefull with your money when u and Keith run into the three names I mentioned.Aries look good in Red.Do u remember that famous red dress of Reba McIntyre( Aries women)

 

[satman]

Jason and Richie can both play top notch

There is a seat reserved permanently for Keith in the history of pool.No one can take that away.It is good to know that he is still strong on bar table.
I have not seen a big rock for ages.
Shanon can do lot of things in pool than people realize.They think he is only a one pocket player.Real people know what he is capable of.


Since no one is mentioning about Jason Kirkwood ( Michigan)&Richie Smiegal ( Bay city, MI) & Barry Emerson ( washington ? or Dallas,TX), steak horses can make lots of money if these guys were taken on the road.

I had the pleasure of playing Rich Schmiegle at the Valley tournament in Vegas in 2000. He beat me to leave me in 3rd place out of about 1300 that year. Neither of us played at the speed we were capable of. He won the tournament and the next year I watched him play and his game had jumped a bunch. In 2003 at Derby City, I played in a 3 man team tournament with Brian Gregg and Dan Walton. We played Jason, Richie and Brandon Ashcraft in the finals and they Double dipped us to win the tournament. They all 3 played absolutely incredible pool.
But I don't think I'd put them in the same category with Keith, Buddy and Dave on the bar box with the big cue ball. Those 3 with the big ball, have got to be the best to ever play the bar tables. Sam

 

[JAM]

Becarefull with your money when u and Keith run into the three names I mentioned.Aries look good in Red.Do u remember that famous red dress of Reba McIntyre( Aries women)

These "who's the best" threads are sometimes interesting to read. Many folk pick regional favorites because that is all they are exposed to, and, of course, the younger posters have no way of knowing how strong some veteran players were and still are today. Some people may believe that players who collect tin cups rule in today's pool world, but there are legends who chose not to go the tournament trail route.

I have never wavered from my belief that satisfaction for some pool players comes from playing the game and not from money and fame. I am aware of players who have made the headlines and -- poof -- they're gone, overnight sensations, then off the radar. To maintain a pool career for 30-plus years, at least here in the United States, has been a difficult road to travel.

Tin cups don't mean squat to some players, and their deep passion for the game has kept them buoyant and resilient through the ebb and flow of the turbulent pool world. Political stop signs and hurdles have actually hindered the success of pool as a legitimate sport. Result pickers think tournament wins represent the best of the best, but there is another school of thought, a secret society of unsung heroes that are often overlooked (IMO).

JAM

 

[vagabond]

but there is another school of thought, a secret society of unsung heroes that are often overlooked (IMO
JAM

That is my point,JAM

 

[watchez]

Sammy Soto from southern Illinois. In the early 90's, Buddy played him on Sammy's table, in Sammy's home bar with the big rock & Sammy won. Since I haven't seen or heard of Sammy in a few years I would venture to guess he is dead.

 

[vagabond]

But I don't think I'd put them in the same category with Keith, Buddy and Dave on the bar box with the big cue ball. Those 3 with the big ball, have got to be the best to ever play the bar tables. Sam

I will be a fool if I deny the greatness of those three u mentioned.What I am wondering is whether those greats can still play with the same speed they played 10 years ago.Few years ago in a bar box tournament in JOB Billiards,Madison,TN, Shannon daulton was doing the lines.Eventhough shannon was a roadie he did not know who Jason and Richie were till they beat david matlock,Johny archer,Shannon daulton.Then all the big wigs knew who these kids were.I told shannon that these guys are from Michigan.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Dave Matlock....

I have seen Dave play some pretty salty players (PRO and they appear on this website) and they got the worst of it.

Dave Matlock is the best I have ever seen on a bar box.

Ken

 

[JAM]

That is my point,JAM

I'd venture to guess that there aren't too many unknowns in today's pool world due to the advent of technology, i.e., internet, cell phones, and pool media.

The way I see it, you've got your tournament soldiers [Player A], action players [Player B], and a rare breed who swings both ways [Player C].

Player A: A tournament champion in today's pool world who plays topnotch in a competitive environment at a high-profile event. They are able to execute every shot, maintain their focus, and rise to the top, often in the money rounds. Their names are well known in the pool culture, of which all of us on this forum are a member of, and are often heralded as the best of the best.

Player B: Now enter into the fray, an action player who doesn't miss a ball in games of high stakes -- the higher the stakes, the better their game. They seem to soar to the top in this kind of competitive environment and cannot be beat. Their game reaches heights that are unattainable by a Player A-type shooter.

Player C: Just pulling four names off the top of my head, Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Nick Varner would be old-guard Player C's, and new guard would be someone like Danny Basavich. I do not believe any of these players would have reached their high level of play, had it not been for engaging in many hours of action.

I don't think there are a whole bunch of "unknowns" in today's pool world, but I do believe there are MANY Player B's from yesteryear who are often overlooked. I still don't know, though, how you can compare Luther Lassiter to Mika Immonen or Cornbread Red to Jason Kirkwood. Personally, I never saw Luther play, but I've definitely seen Mika. In Cornbread's prime, would he have drilled Jason Kirkwood of today? Would Efren Reyes have beaten Ronnie Allen when Ronnie was the one-pocket king? That's my point.

JAM

 

[Skess]

Now here's a question for you. When is the last time you've seen a bar table with a big rock? I ain't seen one in YEARS.

JAM

Incredibly, we still see the occasional bar (league play) with the big cue balls. They won't open the tables up so we have to use them. Having grown up with regulation cue balls on 9' tables, I was amazed that those big rocks actually were used. I equate it to playing with a bowling ball.

It's hard to imagine that players would prefer the big cueball. I find that I have to rethink how I get around the table when we use them. More rolling, less english.

I'm curious... I've read that Keith liked the bigger cueball on the bar tables. Did the top "big rock" players move the cueball the same way as a regulation ball or was there a different approach to playing with one. I know what league players have to do to play with them, but did it matter to the better players.

Scott

 

[OldHasBeen]

I'd like to mention a GOOD (if Not Great) un-known.

I was on the road (for 2 years) and made a ton of $ with a relatively un-known bar box player.
It was a fellow named "CALIFORNIA BOB".
Now this was back in the late '70's and Bob was strictly a HUSTLER. On some rare occasions when he was working his way up the ladder of players in a good pool town, he would run into a good player who could really play very well.
USUALLY EITHER I WOULD THEN PLAY OR HE WOULD JUST QUIT AND USE IT TO GO BACK TO PLAYING LESSER PLAYERS WITH MORE $.
But on quite a few times he would get completely stretched out and - MAN COULD HE EVER PLAY WITH A BIG CUE BALL!
His M.O. was to get in Dead Stroke on a bar box playing cheap and then when they called in the good players he ran over them like a Truck. Come to think of it – That’s how we met.
He actually helped me with my big ball game.
I can't tell how many bars we went into and after 1 beer and 10 min - I said Lets Go.
Bob would say wait I think I see some potentail here, lets give it 30 more min. Many, Many times he would start out playing for $2 - $5 a game and we would win between $100 to $400 for the night. And when your on the road - That's The Nut and then some. THAT WAS THE STRONGEST PART OF BEING WITH HIM.
Once in Shreveport, when the lure of a big time poolroom got the best of me, I insisted on going into Guys & Dolls. Bob had said he Hates Pool Rooms – Too much matching up and talking before any action he would say – but that was my gig so we went. After about 20 min of woofing with some locals (who knew me from when Buddy was there), Bob actually got sick to his stomach and threw up. I just gave him the keys to my car and told him to call when he landed in a bar.
There is no way to say how good he might have been or could have become because (like me) he had no interest in trophies or titles. He wanted to excel in The Hustle and was convinced this is where the $ was.
He had long stringy black hair, beard and always wore a big floppy leather hat. I on the other hand was usually in business attire and NO ONE IN TWO YEARS EVER PUT US TOGETHER.
Bob was also the Worlds Champion at getting down with the local ladies. I swear, he could go into a bar that closed in 10 min and come out with a lady that would usually have pool info, a local car & plates and a place for him to flop. On the other hand - I Think when they made that song "All The Girls Get Prettier At Closing Time" - They had BOB in mind. I used to tell him - "Bob, You must be mad at you putz". This was a big advantage though because I was driving a new Lincoln w/ Missouri plates - and this really helped to dispel any thoughts we might be together.
Naturally, in two years together there were many stories told between us and some involved "KEITHER". There is no reason to go into them here but I think they may have been very competitive in CA.
Now I'm not going to say that we were as good and defiantly not as famous as some road teams like Hubbart/Segal, Toby/Joe, Keith/Jimmy, etc. - BUT for those two years I kept detailed records and I would match/bet $ for $ the outcome ON THE CA$H.
Bob is about 62 or 4 now and the last I heard he is in Canada.

TY & GL

 

[cueaddicts]

....The way I see it, you've got your tournament soldiers [Player A], action players [Player B], and a rare breed who swings both ways [Player C].

Player A: A tournament champion in today's pool world who plays topnotch in a competitive environment at a high-profile event. They are able to execute every shot, maintain their focus, and rise to the top, often in the money rounds. Their names are well known in the pool culture, of which all of us on this forum are a member of, and are often heralded as the best of the best.

Player B: Now enter into the fray, an action player who doesn't miss a ball in games of high stakes -- the higher the stakes, the better their game. They seem to soar to the top in this kind of competitive environment and cannot be beat. Their game reaches heights that are unattainable by a Player A-type shooter.

Player C: Just pulling four names off the top of my head, Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Nick Varner would be old-guard Player C's, and new guard would be someone like Danny Basavich. I do not believe any of these players would have reached their high level of play, had it not been for engaging in many hours of action....
JAM

JAM,

Somebody mentioned Vernon Elliott's name in an earlier post. What a great example of your classic Player B (above). Awesome in his day for the cash... but very far under the radar in the grand scheme of things for most pool spectators and fans.

It's very tough to incorporate these different type players into one "who's the best" scenario. Given that, I would have to think that with the Big Rock on a bar box, Matlock and Keith would get my vote for the two all time greats.

But, as it is...the Big Rock and slow cloth has gone the way of the dodo.

Sean

 

[Snapshot9]

My Picks ...

There's only 3 people in the last 30 years that had an aura about them on the bar box for the dough. These guys were absolutly the MOST talked about and MOST feared for a looooonnnng time.

DAVE MATLOCK (big rock)

KEITH McCREADY (big & small rock)

BUDDY HALL (small rock)

There's no one nowadays that's talked about like these 3 were for so long.

These are my picks also. I played Buddy some when he came through here
before he turned Pro. I watched the first match-up Dave Matlock had here
in town when he had just come from Western Missouri (I believe Starlight, Mo.) for a $700 set (He played our own Jr. Brown). I have played Omaha
John quite a few times, and would not put him into the 'Best' category.
I have never though had the pleasure of watching Keith play in person, but
have heard a lot of old stories about him. I do not think that any player had
the backing though that David Matlock had when he lived in Oklahoma. It
was rumored that he had 3 oilmen that would back him up to $500,000 in
a match-up. David told me when he was in Wichita for a tournament at
Rumors here that he had run 28 consecutive 9 ball games on a bar table.
And I remember watching him running 9 consecutive 10 ball games on the
Brunswick 9 footer at Rumors in a ring game with 7 guys for $10 a man.

 

[JAM]

...Naturally, in two years together there were many stories told between us and some involved "KEITHER". There is no reason to go into them here but I think they may have been very competitive in CA.
Now I'm not going to say that we were as good and defiantly not as famous as some road teams like Hubbart/Segal, Toby/Joe, Keith/Jimmy, etc. - BUT for those two years I kept detailed records and I would match/bet $ for $ the outcome ON THE CA$H.
Bob is about 62 or 4 now and the last I heard he is in Canada.

Yep, I am aware of who you are talking about, though I do not know him. A great example of the Player B type in my earlier post. I'm aware of many players of that era who are not known in today's pool world.

BTW, which Jimmy are you referring to partnered up with Keith? Is it Jimmy Reid, by chance? Where has he been as of late? I missed seeing him at the U.S. Open this year. Hopefully, Jimmy will be at the Derby City Classic in January, being that he's only about a 2-hour drive.

There's a couple of great ones in my neck of the woods, but because of occupational hazards and/or life's hard knocks, they aren't recognized. The late Steve Gumphries was an incredible player, and there's a young gun from Maryland named Max who could drill anyone in one pocket when he's in good form. Strawberry is another pool phenom who is still often talked about as being one of the best one-hole mechanics.

JAM