Best One-Pocket Player in the History of The World?

[jay helfert]

I was waiting for Jay to step in so I could second-guess, and disagree with my old pal. Steve Cook, while being one of the few people on a very short list who I give credit to for really knowing the game of OnePocket, was miles away from Ronnie -- or Artie Bodendorfer. We keep forgetting about Artie. Jay, because he wasn't around him, everyone else, because he never appeared in any tournaments. Jay mentioned Jersey Red and Boston Shorty, Artie beat both of them.
As for Jack Cooney being #2, Jack lived and hustled with me in Chicago when he played Bugs Rucker on the West Side. Bugs gave Jack one-hit-and-the-pick, a monster spot. Bugs had us $2500 loser at the game before Jack finally got loose and won the money. Believe me, Jack would have been no match for Bugs playing even. When Jack first started hanging in my joint, North Shore Billiards, Artie was at first skeptical about playing Jack. Jack's rep had Artie somewhat intimidated. They wound up playing together as partners against a weak player (Grady Humphreys), giving him a big spot for big money. After a few days, Artie, frustrated by Jack's shot selection, suggested they quit the partners game and play against each other. Jack, on the other hand, was quite impressed with Artie's shot selection and asked for 10 to 8.

the Beard

Thanks Freddie. I regret not seeing Artie in his prime. Even though I was in Chicago a couple of times. The first time or two I was trying to get action, playing some with Tom Karabotsas and Tommy Spencer. Also hit 'em around with Joey Gold. All three could play. George Michaels was around then too. Another strong shortstop, but Spencer was the best of the bunch.

Years later I came back with Danny Medina. You remember that one in the 80's. He played you some high dollar Banks and I played your friend Wayne some cheap $50 a game 9-Ball Banks. Danny did good on that trip and we finished over 10K to the good. We traveled from Kentucky at the Childress tourney (Danny was 3rd) thru Ohio (we got action in Dayton and Cincy) and up thru Indiana, playing in Indianapolis. No one beat Danny that trip and he finished it by getting fourth in the Classic Cup in Aurora.

I do wish I had seen Artie play, as he is the one top player I missed. If he beat Red and Shorty, he is indeed one of the best. And I rate both of these guys above Steve Cook for the cash. Steve actually peaked in the 90's at One Pocket. Did Artie ever play Kelly? He was Ronnie's toughest opponent always. What about Marvin Henderson? He was a fantastic One Pocket player, but led an erratic lifestyle.

At one time Kelly and Marvin were hanging around the Billiard Den together. They respected each other too much to match up. I tried to get Marvin to play him, but he always said he wasn't in shape. You know what I mean. One time they practiced together and it lasted only five or six games, because the whole poolroom crowded around their table. There was no bet, and they were laughing and joking, but Kelly won almost every game. He stayed in better shape most of the time. He knew he couldn't drink, because when he did, he was a nasty drunk. Kelly popped someone at a tournament once (maybe in Chicago), when he was plastered. Could it have been Sammy Jones? Do you remember this?

 

[freddy the beard]

Artie and Kelly? No.

Thanks Freddie. I regret not seeing Artie in his prime. Even though I was in Chicago a couple of times. The first time or two I was trying to get action, playing some with Tom Karabotsas and Tommy Spencer. Also hit 'em around with Joey Gold. All three could play. George Michaels was around then too. Another strong shortstop, but Spencer was the best of the bunch.

Years later I came back with Danny Medina. You remember that one in the 80's. He played you some high dollar Banks and I played your friend Wayne some cheap $50 a game 9-Ball Banks. Danny did good on that trip and we finished over 10K to the good. We traveled from Kentucky at the Childress tourney (Danny was 3rd) thru Ohio (we got action in Dayton and Cincy) and up thru Indiana, playing in Indianapolis. No one beat Danny that trip and he finished it by getting fourth in the Classic Cup in Aurora.

I do wish I had seen Artie play, as he is the one top player I missed. If he beat Red and Shorty, he is indeed one of the best. And I rate both of these guys above Steve Cook for the cash. Steve actually peaked in the 90's at One Pocket. Did Artie ever play Kelly? He was Ronnie's toughest opponent always. What about Marvin Henderson? He was a fantastic One Pocket player, but led an erratic lifestyle.

At one time Kelly and Marvin were hanging around the Billiard Den together. They respected each other too much to match up. I tried to get Marvin to play him, but he always said he wasn't in shape. You know what I mean. One time they practiced together and it lasted only five or six games, because the whole poolroom crowded around their table. There was no bet, and they were laughing and joking, but Kelly won almost every game. He stayed in better shape most of the time. He knew he couldn't drink, because when he did, he was a nasty drunk. Kelly popped someone at a tournament once (maybe in Chicago), when he was plastered. Could it have been Sammy Jones? Do you remember this?

George Michaels has been in Frisco for awhile. He plays a lot better than shortstop speed now. It was nice of you not to mention Danny Medina beating me playing banks in my home court. However, we landed on each other once more at Starcher's tourn in Akron for $200 a game. I played much tighter this time, and after he had won the first two games I beat him 8 in a row and he packed it in. He left me with one of the most delicious lines I have ever heard (and you know how cocky he was), "Freddy, I cant beat you playing bank pool." That remark, and a few others have sustained me through the years.
Artie and Kelly never played. When Artie emerged as a top player, Kelly was already heading for early retirement. I believe the booze finished him (Kelly) off as a player. He was a horrible drunk. Brooklyn Charlie's wife clobbered him with a beer bottle at Johnston City after he had made a nasty remark. She tried to finish him off with the broken end, but was stopped mid-flight. Kelly did punch somebody at JC but I have forgotten who.
Marvin Henderson spent some time at Bensingers with us but he stayed broke the whole time. He didnt play good at all while he was there, and we thought he was just an over-the-hill drunk. I beat him playing Banks and Artie beat him playing 3cushion. Unbelievably, he went to Detroit (The Rack)from there, and became "Marvin" again, one of the earth's best players. What he did to get back in stroke, I dont know, because he was still drinking-- just maybe not as much.

the Beard

 

[teambizy]

I would have to agree that Efren looks pretty much unstoppable in one pocket. I thought cornbread red played pretty good one pocket as well.

 

[jrhendy]

Interestimg thread here. It's been debated for years now who was/is the best. In my lifetime the two best I've seen were Ronnie and Efren. It's hard for me to choose between the two. Ronnie had a very aggressive style and an amazing ability to create shots and move multiple balls toward his hole.
No one, not even Efren could do that like Ronnie. And Ronnie could and would run ten and out all day long, sometimes from nowhere. He was always spotting someone a game like 10-4 or 10-5.

Efren, on the other hand is equally creative at finding unique moves and safeties that just leave his opponent no way out. He comes up with shots that no one else sees, over and over again. And he does two things better than anyone ever, and I'm not talking about kicking balls. Because Ronnie may have kicked better than Efren at One Hole. What Efren is amazing at is running balls when they are clustered in a pack. He will move the cue ball a few inches and bump balls to put them in postion. He can wind his way thru a traffic jam and run out better than anyone ever.

The second thing that Efren excels at is running balls when they are all down table. He can get behind the balls when they are all within two diamonds of the end rail and run out. He can play position behind balls that are only inches off the end rail. Marshall Carpenter said Rags was the greatest human being he ever saw play One Pocket, but Efren is NOT human.

Efren played Ronnie in L.A. about ten years ago and gave him 8-7 and the break. Ronnie out moved Efren every game and got the first shot, usually running four, five or even six balls. But from there Efren would win anyway, often running out with all the balls down table (see above). In his prime Ronnie would have won all these games. He would have run seven and out game after game. This was an over the hill Ronnie playing a peaking Efren. No match.

Ronnie at his peak would have battled Efren and maybe won, as he was a relentless money player, at his best shooting a difficult shot for the cash. Ronnie rarely missed a tough combo or super thin cut on his out ball. If he had a look at his hole on the game ball, you could lock it up. I watched his show for years and it was equally impressive as the one Efren has put on for the last 15 years.

I have a vision of Efren shaking his head at the run outs and kick shots Ronnie would come up with. And don't underestimate Ronnie's ability to win. He had the best nose for the goal line I ever saw. He could smell the money.
And remember Ronnie had to deal with the likes of Ed Kelly, Jersey Red and Shorty. In my opinion all better One Pocket players than anyone alive today except Efren.

Steve Cook did not want to play Ronnie for big money. For 50 or a 100 a game, it would have been close. But for 500 a game, it would have been all Ronnie. Of course, Steve wouldn't play that high either. Who knows how good Jack Cooney was? He was smart enough not to test himself and reveal his true speed. I suspect he was the second best player in the 70's and 80's.

Ronnie practiced with him for two weeks, getting ready for his match with Danny D. in 1987 in Phoenix. They played 50 a game every day, and broke even over all. That was the last time I saw Ronnie play good, about 90 to 95% his peak game. Efren didn't come into prominence until a few years later.

Jay, in the session(s) between Ronnie and Efren I saw, Ronnie was also breaking for the same whole every time. I remember him winning the first four or five games in a row and not ending up with the $$. If there was any difference in games in their prime, it wasn't much, and as we have discussed before, throw in Ronnie's "gamesmanship" and he might even have a little edge. I have seen Efren get ruffled and that would have been a weakness against Ronnie.

As far as Jack Cooney, I watched him play Grady a couple long sessions at 9 to 8 at Sixth & Western in L.A. when Grady was considered to be the best one pocket player in the country. I don't remember who won, but it wasn't much and Grady said something like "what do I do better than this guy"?

I have the pleasure of watching and sometimes playing (with a huge spot) T-Rex, one of the best young one pocket players in the country at Hard Times in Sacramento once and a while. He is the closest thing to Ronnie in recent years I have seen. He always has the balls going towards his hole and runs out from everywhere and is very tough on his home court. John Henderson

 

[supergreenman]

While I'm on the subject of one pocket........


Now....I'm curious to see your vote.

I voted for Efren(as did most people by the looks of it, but in the intrest of keeping things interesting I submit the following:

basterdized from the Ridley Bent song Suicidewinder

“I’m Johnny Cash when I’m drinkin’
I’m The Clash when I’m thinkin’
I’m Mad Max when I’m drivin’
I’m Mike Diamond when I’m rhymin’
I’m Humphrey Bogart when I’m smokin’
I’m Bob Marley when I’m tokin’
and when I'm in bed dreaming, I'm a 1 pocket screaming demon

 

[erikido]

thats what most 8 or 9 ballers say who don't understand the game. I used to say it myself before I realized what these guys are doing on the table playing one pocket. Take the finest points of 14.1 and 9ball and banks and you might just play good one hole....

Gerry

I LOVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEE straight pool and nine ball...8ball I play occasionally but I just get more out of the other 2. I also like rotation a lot, but am not good enough at it yet to be able to stand to play more than 5 games before it just starts to get frustrating. One pocket, just too defensive a game. I am actually quite good at defensive shots...But, I like a game which has more of a combination of the 2.
One of the guys who I always play with loves the game. Offers to spot me in the game all the time. But, why would I gamble on something that I am not even going to enjoy that much.

I will play an occasional game though,like once a month or so, just to have a change of pace

 

[erikido]

What a boneheaded response! Are you a poolplayer? It's a shame you can't appreciate the finer things in life. One pocket is the chess game of pool. I guess you're a checkers kind of guy!! philw

1700-1800 rated chess player ;D

 

[thebighurt]

Just to throw this in the ring. From about 1996-1999 theFlorida tour had a state one pocket championship along with the end of the year 9 ball state championship( this is when Paul Johnson, Joe Penna, John Ditoro and dennis Searind ran the tour. All 4 years Johnny Ervolino won the one pocket not bad seein how he was 60+ at the time. By the way the field every year included Buddy Hall, Steve Cook, Danny Diliberto, Steve mizerak, Slim Carney, David Grossman, Jihn Ditoro, C.M. Lee, not to mention a bunch of others I am leaving out.

 

[philw]

that's a nice game and remember watching it. It is kind of funny, Efren has Grady tied up like a boy scout and then walks in front of Grady while he's attempting a critical shot.
JoeyA

Grady has had his share of sharking. I saw Danny Jones blatantly shark Grady at a tournament in Illinois in th 80's it was so bad Grady broke down his cue and left the table. In my opinion Danny should have been disqualified. I wonder if Grady remembers this? I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Philw

 

[philw]

I'm a pretty young guy who plays nothing but straight pool one pocket and banks. I have the priveledge of learning these games from what someone who learned from the best one pocket player.
Artie Bodendorfer

He said that Artie played and broke every top road player that came in to chicago. My mentor learned to bank playing Bugs and Freddie the beard. He also went on the road with Youngblood and Cannonball Lefty when he was young. From what he tells me, Artie didnt have to go on the road cuz all the top players came in just to play him. Sometimes they would get Freddie thinking they got Artie only to get broke by Freddie and then have to come back later to play Artie. This all happened at Besingers which was Artie's room. Efren learned one hole from Freddie and from what I'm told absolutley refused to play Artie. So how strong is that !!! ???
My personal favorite one hole players are Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Steve Cook, Grady, and Bugs ( just because he could bank his way out of jams others thought they had him stuck in ).
Efren is definitley the best player of the modern era. But I really wonder how he would have held up in the 60's and 70's when EVERYONE played all games. Nowadays a lot of players focus on only on or two diciplines. My next venture is gonna be 3 cushion. But its hard cuz there is nowhere to play it here in Vegas except Cue Club and I'm not too fond of the riff raff in that place! Anyways , just my 2 cents.

I understand Artie was a tremendous player who didn't allow his opponents any breathing room but I can't believe Efren wouldn't want to play him. I also know that Efren learned one pocket from Freddie having watched Efren's internship at the Chicago Billiard Cafe daily. Philw

 

[jay helfert]

Just to throw this in the ring. From about 1996-1999 theFlorida tour had a state one pocket championship along with the end of the year 9 ball state championship( this is when Paul Johnson, Joe Penna, John Ditoro and dennis Searind ran the tour. All 4 years Johnny Ervolino won the one pocket not bad seein how he was 60+ at the time. By the way the field every year included Buddy Hall, Steve Cook, Danny Diliberto, Steve mizerak, Slim Carney, David Grossman, Jihn Ditoro, C.M. Lee, not to mention a bunch of others I am leaving out.

The "old school" One Pocket players could play a little. And Johnny was always rated a hair below Kelly and Jersey Red. Ronnie would give Johnny 8-7 all day long. Believe me, Johnny didn't want that game.

If anything, Johnny got better with age. Maturity and discipline will make you a better One Hole player.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, in the session(s) between Ronnie and Efren I saw, Ronnie was also breaking for the same whole every time. I remember him winning the first four or five games in a row and not ending up with the $$. If there was any difference in games in their prime, it wasn't much, and as we have discussed before, throw in Ronnie's "gamesmanship" and he might even have a little edge. I have seen Efren get ruffled and that would have been a weakness against Ronnie.

As far as Jack Cooney, I watched him play Grady a couple long sessions at 9 to 8 at Sixth & Western in L.A. when Grady was considered to be the best one pocket player in the country. I don't remember who won, but it wasn't much and Grady said something like "what do I do better than this guy"?

I have the pleasure of watching and sometimes playing (with a huge spot) T-Rex, one of the best young one pocket players in the country at Hard Times in Sacramento once and a while. He is the closest thing to Ronnie in recent years I have seen. He always has the balls going towards his hole and runs out from everywhere and is very tough on his home court. John Henderson

Those were the same sessions at Hard Times. Ronnie did start out winning but couldn't sustain it. In the end Efren won something like the last eight games in a row. It got so bad I had to leave.

T-Rex is the first guy since Ronnie to spot me 8-4. He beat me four games for $300 a game and I pulled up. I broke twice and left a ball a couple of inches from my hole. He couldn't see the ball and both times he managed to get the cue ball around the table and snuggle up behind the ball. I had seen enough.

 

[1pocket]

I am actually quite good at defensive shots...But, I like a game which has more of a combination of the 2.

If this is true, then someday -- when you have time, and people to learn from -- you will come around, because surely One Pocket is "a combination of the two"

 

[1pocket]

1700-1800 rated chess player ;D

I missed this -- in that case you really might as well start looking forward to the days when you love One Pocket -- why wait?

Im curious if you happen to know about where Efren would be rated in Chess? I know he enjoys the game, but don't really know how well he plays...

 

[sjm]

I missed this -- in that case you really might as well start looking forward to the days when you love One Pocket -- why wait?

Im curious if you happen to know about where Efren would be rated in Chess? I know he enjoys the game, but don't really know how well he plays...

It has been posted on the forum before that Efren's chess rating is in the 1800's.

 

[Fatboy]

Gotta give Ed Kelly his props he won in Reno in 92, he beat Corn bread Red etc, in some close matches. but Efrin will still crush him, and no dis-respect to Ed as he would crush me.

 

[sjm]

My guess is --of the few guys that got to see Rags, Ronnie, and Efren-- that they would vote each of them the best of all time for their respective styles of play.

Of the old-style, more strategic game, Rags was presumably the best, as attested to by the legends of that era. In the 1960's, Ronnie's aggressive shotmaking and constantly moving groups of balls towards his hole, made him the undisputed leader of the new pack. He re-invented one-pocket with his brilliant style of play. I saw him play Eddie Kelly in the 1960's, and I simply couldn't believe what I was witnessing.

Ronnie may have been the first guy to ever combine the agressiveness of 9-ball with the finesse of straight pool. Keep in mind-- all the players of that era were adept at the intricacies of working in close from straight pool. Today, very few players are accustomed to it. In 9-ball it's usually only necessary to roll the cueball into a one to two-foot circle for adequate position.

When Efren came to the one-pocket forefront in the 90's, his play was an impressive extension of Ronnie's style. His play is phenomenal, and few doubt that he's the best of all time. The 3 R's: Rags, Ronnie, and Reyes.

Doc

Surely, then, the next great book on the history of one-pocket will be "From Rags to Reyes."

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Jay and the Beard

I have to say, I enjoy reading your posts the most.... very entertaining. I hope you guys keep posting some more stories on here. I'm at the end of the thread and I'm going through withdrawal.

 

[Bobby]

The "old school" One Pocket players could play a little. And Johnny was always rated a hair below Kelly and Jersey Red. Ronnie would give Johnny 8-7 all day long. Believe me, Johnny didn't want that game.

If anything, Johnny got better with age. Maturity and discipline will make you a better One Hole player.

Jay, how did Eddie Taylor match up with the top one pocket players? A few years ago I asked Johnny Ervolino to list in his estimation the best one pocket players he'd ever seen, and this is how he ranked them if I remember correctly:

1- Hayden Lingo
2- Rags Fitzpatrick
3- Eugene "Clem" Metz
4- Ronnie Allen
5- Jersey Red

I know he had Eddie Taylor on the list but I can't remember where exactly. He also said that he (Johnny) at his best needed one ball from Ronnie Allen, he also said he would probably need a ball from Reyes (both playing at their best), so I surmise that he considered Reyes and Ronnie roughly equal.

Bobby

 

[RED NAXELA]

Surely, then, the next great book on the history of one-pocket will be "From Rags to Reyes."

That was a gem, SJM.