Ah the semantics of it. The vibration dampening I guess I'm talking about is the vibration associated with the addition of a joint. Give me a better term.
Fred <~~~ could use a better term
best pin
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Ah the semantics of it. The vibration dampening I guess I'm talking about is the vibration associated with the addition of a joint. Give me a better term.
Fred <~~~ could use a better term
Thanks for the info, Donnie. Jon was a good player and I enjoyed his game. Sorry to hear of his passing. Happy New Year!
Exactly what is meant by "hard" hit vs. "soft" hit?
Tramp Steamer:
Appreciate your feedback/opinion. Here's that website's small paragraph about "joint" in its entirety:
I don't see where there's a description of something that refutes what was posted, related to certain materials' characteristics to transfer the vibrations and resonance of the shot back to the shooter's hand. Only that the energy (forward motion) of the shot from one section of the cue to another, and that "the harder the material, the harder a shot can be taken." (Which is bunk, really -- all quality cues today are capable of transferring extremely powerfully-hit shots from one section of the cue to another, to the cue ball -- no matter what commonly-used material is used for the joint.)
Neither of these two things have anything to do with what we're discussing here related to "feel" and "feedback."
KJ Cues brings up a valid point -- exactly what is a "hard hit" vs. a "soft hit"? Some seem to have different definitions of these two terms. I myself changed my definition of these two after discussing a cue with a local luthier.
In the process of defining what I want in my cue, he hands me a cue with a stainless steel joint, and I stroke a ball with it. I tell him that I don't like the hit, because to me it felt "too hard" -- which for me, meant I got no feedback from the cue. I didn't feel (or felt very little) of the vibrations and resonance of the hit, that somehow the cue was "so strong" that it somehow withstood any contact with the cue ball. The luthier corrects me, and says, "No, you mean 'soft' -- the cue is absorbing all the vibrations and resonance, and they're not making it to your hand." I looked at him with an up-turned eyebrow confused look, not understanding at first. But then after I thought about it, I understood. He explained this idea of the "big steel block" thing that I mentioned in my earlier post #13, where wood doesn't transfer vibrations or resonance to steel, because of the SIGNIFICANTLY different mass, weight, density, etc. of steel. He explained that the vibrations through the shaft simply "bounce off" the steel barrier, going back down the shaft from whence they came.
Then, he hands me the same-made cue, but this time with a wood-to-wood joint, and I stroke a ball with it. I did feel the difference, and I *heard* the difference, too. There was a noticeably longer "ponk" sound, and I felt the feedback all the way back in my grip hand. (Both these cues were wrapless, by the way.) He explained that this was a purer hit, because it was unmodified and uninterrupted. He shared his personal opinion to me that this wood-to-wood cue "talks" to the shooter better. He also said some people prefer a talkative cue, others want the cue to shut up and just relay the energy to the cue ball.
This luthier, by the way, also made musical instruments (guitars and flutes), and I trust this man knows what he's talking about when it comes to sound, vibrations, and resonance of wood.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Tramp Steamer:
Appreciate your feedback/opinion. Here's that website's small paragraph about "joint" in its entirety:
Joint
The joint is obviously where the shaft joins to the butt end. It is the section of the cue that is attached to the bottom of the shaft and contains the threads that receive the pin of the butt section.
This part of the stick receives and transfers the energy of the shot from one section of the cue to the other. The harder the material it is made from, the harder a shot can be taken. Some common materials of its manufacture include metal, wood, phenolic resin, buckhorn, or ivory.
The joint is obviously where the shaft joins to the butt end. It is the section of the cue that is attached to the bottom of the shaft and contains the threads that receive the pin of the butt section.
This part of the stick receives and transfers the energy of the shot from one section of the cue to the other. The harder the material it is made from, the harder a shot can be taken. Some common materials of its manufacture include metal, wood, phenolic resin, buckhorn, or ivory.
I don't see where there's a description of something that refutes what was posted, related to certain materials' characteristics to transfer the vibrations and resonance of the shot back to the shooter's hand. Only that the energy (forward motion) of the shot from one section of the cue to another, and that "the harder the material, the harder a shot can be taken." (Which is bunk, really -- all quality cues today are capable of transferring extremely powerfully-hit shots from one section of the cue to another, to the cue ball -- no matter what commonly-used material is used for the joint.)
Neither of these two things have anything to do with what we're discussing here related to "feel" and "feedback."
KJ Cues brings up a valid point -- exactly what is a "hard hit" vs. a "soft hit"? Some seem to have different definitions of these two terms. I myself changed my definition of these two after discussing a cue with a local luthier.
In the process of defining what I want in my cue, he hands me a cue with a stainless steel joint, and I stroke a ball with it. I tell him that I don't like the hit, because to me it felt "too hard" -- which for me, meant I got no feedback from the cue. I didn't feel (or felt very little) of the vibrations and resonance of the hit, that somehow the cue was "so strong" that it somehow withstood any contact with the cue ball. The luthier corrects me, and says, "No, you mean 'soft' -- the cue is absorbing all the vibrations and resonance, and they're not making it to your hand." I looked at him with an up-turned eyebrow confused look, not understanding at first. But then after I thought about it, I understood. He explained this idea of the "big steel block" thing that I mentioned in my earlier post #13, where wood doesn't transfer vibrations or resonance to steel, because of the SIGNIFICANTLY different mass, weight, density, etc. of steel. He explained that the vibrations through the shaft simply "bounce off" the steel barrier, going back down the shaft from whence they came.
Then, he hands me the same-made cue, but this time with a wood-to-wood joint, and I stroke a ball with it. I did feel the difference, and I *heard* the difference, too. There was a noticeably longer "ponk" sound, and I felt the feedback all the way back in my grip hand. (Both these cues were wrapless, by the way.) He explained that this was a purer hit, because it was unmodified and uninterrupted. He shared his personal opinion to me that this wood-to-wood cue "talks" to the shooter better. He also said some people prefer a talkative cue, others want the cue to shut up and just relay the energy to the cue ball.
This luthier, by the way, also made musical instruments (guitars and flutes), and I trust this man knows what he's talking about when it comes to sound, vibrations, and resonance of wood.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Yeah, me. KJ's right on this one. The only reason a jointed cue exists in the first place is because a person would look like a doofus walking into a poolhall with a fifty-eight inch cue case.
Hi Fred!
First, a very happy, healthy, and prosperous New Year to you and yours.
As for a better term, how about "vibration continuity" or "vibration transference"? Or maybe even "minimal vibration dampening." These are just off the top of my head, and I myself could be using the wrong terms to describe that quality of "not interrupting the natural flow of vibrations and resonance down the entire length of the cue."
-Sean
pin choice may or may not matter..I think a skilled cuemaker could possibly make a similar hitting cue with different pins. Joint collars could alter the vibrations going through the whole cue. I think stainless steel joint collar makes the cue hit more "sharp". phenolic wood to wood collar seem to have a "harder" feel. Personally if you want the hardest hitting cue (a cue that makes the cue ball move easily) get some dense wood, fullspliced or one piece of wood cut into two with a timeless timber dense wood shaft. The vibrations will go straight through the cue..Alton keeps saying that is unbroken fiber. The more rings and segments the cue has, it could change how the energy/feedback goes through the cue. But if you have a wood cut into like 7 segments for a cue. A skilled cuemaker could put them all back with flat to flat facing and it might still hit the same as a one piece cue. Personally I like a more dampened hit with ob-1 shaft with a solid ivory joint collar with radial pin.
One of my favorite hitting cues is a high end McDaniels with 3/8x11 pin (full ivory collar) with a 314-2 shaft.
One of my favorite hitting cues is a high end McDaniels with 3/8x11 pin (full ivory collar) with a 314-2 shaft.
My point is only that the joint does make a difference. I've seen it, and I've felt, and I've discussed it with some of the better players on the planet & some damn fine cuemakers.
At 55 yrs old I've hit a hell of a lot of balls. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over my opinion, nor am I going to move forward into a conversation that may find me among a group being referred to demeaningly as "resident expert". I'm not one, nor do I claim to be.
The advice to discuss all of this with a chosen maker is the most directly utile info available in this thread, but let's not discount the balance of info & opinion based on the fact that it isn't provided by a maker. Many on this forum have gleaned opinion from widely ranging interaction with the cuemaking & cue using community, as well as many hours of personal experience.
At 55 yrs old I've hit a hell of a lot of balls. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over my opinion, nor am I going to move forward into a conversation that may find me among a group being referred to demeaningly as "resident expert". I'm not one, nor do I claim to be.
The advice to discuss all of this with a chosen maker is the most directly utile info available in this thread, but let's not discount the balance of info & opinion based on the fact that it isn't provided by a maker. Many on this forum have gleaned opinion from widely ranging interaction with the cuemaking & cue using community, as well as many hours of personal experience.
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Maybe I should have been more specific, but I'm refering to the picture of the various joints thay Viking uses, and their discriptions.
If 5/16 14 is good enough for Gus, Scruggs, McDaniels, and a laundry list of other cue makers, its good enough for me. It may not make a difference, but I still like that pin. As far as wood, well, you can never go wrong with purple heart! lol!
Joe
Joe
Ebony with straight grain maple up front is the best'if we could figure a wat to test the different pins and joints without the player knowing it ,I would betno one could tell the difference.
I made a cue with a big wood screw like a billiard cue that played better than anything I ever played,THE DEANO CUE.
I made a cue with a big wood screw like a billiard cue that played better than anything I ever played,THE DEANO CUE.
RD3P
Banned
so if i had 5 cues with the exact taper, tip, wood, balance and the only thing different was the Pin type
id beable to tell a difference in all 5 cues???? i dont think so.
the only way id kno any difference is the way they unscrew and screw together...period.
and if someone could honestly tell me wich cue had wich pin in it after playing with it....id give them a small fortune..., hell they should already be rich if there feel is that sensative or they have exray vision.
the only pin i can seee that might beable to tell a differnce in would be the 3/8 10 into wood vs say a brass piloted cue (and thats a slight maybee but the differences there are alot more than just the pin) and i guarantee you wouldnt beable to tell the difference between a radial and a 3/8 10 just by playing.
hell take any pin...and mate the it to a shaft directly into the wood...no insert ....you cant tell me you can honestly tell the difference between a 5/16 18 vs a 5/16 14 vs a 3/8 10 vs a Radial vs glass...just by playing. some pins might theoretically be stronger or fit more accurately... but in the end....
its all just a gimmick.. as long as the cue screws together properly thats all that counts
alot of custom cuemakers badmouth a S.S. joint and say they dont like them....the reason they dont like them is because Steel is expensive and the S.S. is hard on there Tooling.
id beable to tell a difference in all 5 cues???? i dont think so.
the only way id kno any difference is the way they unscrew and screw together...period.
and if someone could honestly tell me wich cue had wich pin in it after playing with it....id give them a small fortune..., hell they should already be rich if there feel is that sensative or they have exray vision.
the only pin i can seee that might beable to tell a differnce in would be the 3/8 10 into wood vs say a brass piloted cue (and thats a slight maybee but the differences there are alot more than just the pin) and i guarantee you wouldnt beable to tell the difference between a radial and a 3/8 10 just by playing.
hell take any pin...and mate the it to a shaft directly into the wood...no insert ....you cant tell me you can honestly tell the difference between a 5/16 18 vs a 5/16 14 vs a 3/8 10 vs a Radial vs glass...just by playing. some pins might theoretically be stronger or fit more accurately... but in the end....
its all just a gimmick.. as long as the cue screws together properly thats all that counts
alot of custom cuemakers badmouth a S.S. joint and say they dont like them....the reason they dont like them is because Steel is expensive and the S.S. is hard on there Tooling.
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Chris,
You may want to check the time that you made your first post and the time that I made mine. There's difference of just 5 mins. or less.
In other words, while you were posting yours, I was composing mine. It was impossible for me know that you were posting or WHAT you were posting.
I've been on this forum long enough to have read many incredible posts by what I refer to as the 'resident experts' and I'm sure that you have also.
The time frame alone should tell you that I was not referring to you specifically.
I actually think that you have some knowledge in this area and your posts are very much worth reading so please don't take it personally.
However, if you feel the need to include yourself in that group, then it's certainly your prerogative, not mine.
Afaik the Uni-Loc radial pin is the most precise and tight-fitting pin among all 3/8" pin.
That's what I use and prefer.
That's what I use and prefer.
Differences between "pin" and "joint"
RD3P:
I'm not sure if you were talking about my posts, but if you were, I think you may've misunderstood. I wasn't referring to the pin, I was referring to the JOINT, whether that joint is wood-to-wood, or metal-to-metal, specifically. I agree; I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference between the various pin styles if the joint itself (i.e. wood-to-wood, or all metal) stays the same. I myself have an assortment of cues with 3/8-10, 5/16-14, 5/16-18, Radial, and even a Radial copy, and with the fact that all of these cues are wood-to-wood, I can't tell the difference.
However, I do have a couple cues with an all-stainless joint (metal-to-metal); one with 5/16-14, and another with 5/16-18, and I can definitely tell the difference between these metal-to-metal jointed cues, and the other wood-to-wood jointed cues. Like I mentioned in a previous post; these metal-to-metal jointed cues have a "mellow" hit -- i.e. one with minimized vibrations transferred back to the gripping hand. (As mentioned, some refer to this kind of hit as "stiffer" or "hard." That question of what exactly defines a "hard" or "soft" hit enters the picture again. Different interpretations of the meaning of these words.) But my wood-to-wood jointed cues, to varying degrees (the degree of which, of course, depends on the make, the quality, and the woods used in the manufacture of the cue) transfer the vibrations back down to my grip hand. There's even a noticeably louder/longer/resonating "ponk" sound than the metal-to-metal jointed cues.
Summary:
Can I tell the difference as to what pin a cue is using? Heck no!
But can I tell the difference in hit between a wood-to-wood joint, and a metal-to-metal joint? Yes, I believe I can.
I hope that helps clarify,
-Sean
RD3P:
I'm not sure if you were talking about my posts, but if you were, I think you may've misunderstood. I wasn't referring to the pin, I was referring to the JOINT, whether that joint is wood-to-wood, or metal-to-metal, specifically. I agree; I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference between the various pin styles if the joint itself (i.e. wood-to-wood, or all metal) stays the same. I myself have an assortment of cues with 3/8-10, 5/16-14, 5/16-18, Radial, and even a Radial copy, and with the fact that all of these cues are wood-to-wood, I can't tell the difference.
However, I do have a couple cues with an all-stainless joint (metal-to-metal); one with 5/16-14, and another with 5/16-18, and I can definitely tell the difference between these metal-to-metal jointed cues, and the other wood-to-wood jointed cues. Like I mentioned in a previous post; these metal-to-metal jointed cues have a "mellow" hit -- i.e. one with minimized vibrations transferred back to the gripping hand. (As mentioned, some refer to this kind of hit as "stiffer" or "hard." That question of what exactly defines a "hard" or "soft" hit enters the picture again. Different interpretations of the meaning of these words.) But my wood-to-wood jointed cues, to varying degrees (the degree of which, of course, depends on the make, the quality, and the woods used in the manufacture of the cue) transfer the vibrations back down to my grip hand. There's even a noticeably louder/longer/resonating "ponk" sound than the metal-to-metal jointed cues.
Summary:
Can I tell the difference as to what pin a cue is using? Heck no!
But can I tell the difference in hit between a wood-to-wood joint, and a metal-to-metal joint? Yes, I believe I can.
I hope that helps clarify,
-Sean
RD3P
Banned
the title of the thread is best Pin....it really makes no difference.
i will say that Mcdermott has millions of cues out there with a 3/8 10 wood to wood...and i havent seen one Mcdermott personally with Broken pin , joint shaft, threads prob.... lots of other cuemakers like this pin/joint because of its simplicity...
personally i prefer a piloted Stainless joint where the shaft has the insert...i like the weight up front and the solid quiet feel.... paired with a hard tip....but that is the whole Joint...most of this style joint have a 5/16 #14 pin(probably has something to do with the fact that there is brass insert in the shaft...i have one with a joint with a #18 count pin....a custom from a local maker
I think Jacobys piloted steel joint cues have a fatter Pin than say schon/joss/falcon ....not sure what the size of jacobys pin is...id have to look at my fathers cue..
in all of these cues the pin and thread count dont make a difference...the only way the pin makes a differnce in a cue is if its not installed Strait/or is physically bent/ or the glue breaks loose or something like that. and some would be easier to foul up if you dont know how to put a cue together
the name of the thread is Best Pin....they all work......
i will say that Mcdermott has millions of cues out there with a 3/8 10 wood to wood...and i havent seen one Mcdermott personally with Broken pin , joint shaft, threads prob.... lots of other cuemakers like this pin/joint because of its simplicity...
personally i prefer a piloted Stainless joint where the shaft has the insert...i like the weight up front and the solid quiet feel.... paired with a hard tip....but that is the whole Joint...most of this style joint have a 5/16 #14 pin(probably has something to do with the fact that there is brass insert in the shaft...i have one with a joint with a #18 count pin....a custom from a local maker
I think Jacobys piloted steel joint cues have a fatter Pin than say schon/joss/falcon ....not sure what the size of jacobys pin is...id have to look at my fathers cue..
in all of these cues the pin and thread count dont make a difference...the only way the pin makes a differnce in a cue is if its not installed Strait/or is physically bent/ or the glue breaks loose or something like that. and some would be easier to foul up if you dont know how to put a cue together
the name of the thread is Best Pin....they all work......
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of course they all work, but the pin/joint with the most surface contact area is going to provide a better hit, b/c its going to provide a better transfer of energy. Thats why Huebler made his inserts out of Nylon, better exact fit to the steel pin, its why the radial is so nice and why unilock sucks.
This is one of the main reasons why I don't like cues that when threaded half way the shaft still wobbles all over the place. When that happens the only thing keeping the shaft straight and perfect is the face of the joint, and there are gaps b/t the pin an insert or threads. You lose on the hit/feel b/c of that.
just my 2Cent,
Grey Ghost
This is one of the main reasons why I don't like cues that when threaded half way the shaft still wobbles all over the place. When that happens the only thing keeping the shaft straight and perfect is the face of the joint, and there are gaps b/t the pin an insert or threads. You lose on the hit/feel b/c of that.
just my 2Cent,
Grey Ghost