BHE vs FHE

[maha]

my head has exploded. but i understand bhe.

it is a straight stroke not a swooping one or anything else.
you stroke straight but have moved your back hand a small amount to one side before you start your forward stroke.

if you choose to do it during the stroke fine but your timing also needs to be good. but you are also cueing straight through the cueball.

i learned it myself 60 years ago before anyone ever heard the name by shooting the cueball for an hour or more just straight up and down the table and learning how to make it hit my point of aim and go to the spot i wanted after landing.
if you cant do that you are still a banger arguing over what you dont know.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There's been a lot of discourse since I last opened this thread. So much so, that I'm not going to bother quoting the issues I have with the swooping BHE I was originally trying to discuss. Rather, I'll just recant.

I have zero problem with the notion of using BHE. I personally think that if used to generate any notable amount of English. You run the risk of breaking down your mechanics. IMO, there's more value in keeping your grip arm mechanics identical regardless of desired English. This includes wrist movement. To produce the swooping BHE mentioned earlier.

That said, the swooping BHE cheerleader in this thread. Is leading us to believe that the dynamic wrist movement is so tiny that it's almost imperceivable. This reeks of the "twist of something" sales pitch, we've endured in the past.

So although nearly any method of stroking the cue can be taught and practiced to usefulness. The simplest and least dynamic is always the best approach. Why a player would risk breaking down the very thing ALL players struggle to master, (mechanics) with such a haphazard method is beyond me.

Too each their own I suppose. Me, I'll continue to worry about shape and pace. Anyone that wants to endure struggling unnecessarily with their grip arm with BHE and especially the swooping version can have it.

Enjoy

The problem I see with this entire post of your is that you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, how it's done and variations of how it can be done, and the end result or outcome of the OB and CB.

There is ONE very good thought you had and posted which is the following:

"Too each their own I suppose. Me, I'll continue to worry about shape and pace. Anyone that wants to endure struggling unnecessarily with their grip arm with BHE and especially the swooping version can have it."

And, WE WILL! ADIOS... (except there is NO SUCH THING AS A SWOOPING VERSION) (Clueless to the very end into infinity)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It does. Two shooters can strike a cue ball with two different cue ball paths, both of which can pocket a ball, where you claimed (with no OB in the diagram!) I'd miss and you'd make the ball. That's presumptuous, there could be a pocket hanger two inches off the CB.

So your method works for "pocket hangers two inches off the CB". Impressive. Of course, a small earthquake (or a breeze in the right direction) would also work...

You actually get fools to pay you for this "instruction"? That's more impressive than anything you've said here.

pj
chgo

 

[sparkle84]

The point of learning pro BHE is a more optimal angle of approach. As I wrote, less adjustment is therefore typically needed for aiming with english to pocket the OB. Also, learning it is incredibly fast and easy.

And I do see your point, timing might mean I get a tip-and-a-quarter instead of a tip of english because of timing, but for a shot like this?

View attachment 743579
If you want a lot of right hand off the 6-ball for the 7, and I mean a surprising amount of english almost regardless of speed of stroke . . . a few shots with the old diagonal cue then a few with pro BHE will be convincing and proof.

Not really a good example double o. The margin of error is so large you can hit this all kinds of ways and get there.

 

[sparkle84]

So your method works for "pocket hangers two inches off the CB". Impressive. Of course, a small earthquake (or a breeze in the right direction) would also work...

You actually get fools to pay you for this "instruction"? That's more impressive than anything you've said here.

pj
chgo

You don't actually believe he has paying customers do you? I guess maybe 1 or 2 a year but that's about it.

 

[The_JV]

my head has exploded. but i understand bhe.

it is a straight stroke not a swooping one or anything else.
you stroke straight but have moved your back hand a small amount to one side before you start your forward stroke.

I think there's two discussions happening at the same time. The dynamics of BHE and then BHE with an additional lateral wrist bend during the stroke.

While I don't have an issue with pure BHE english. I don't believe it works as cleanly as some describe. I have no dog in that fight, but believe it's a method poised to do more damage then adding benefit.

if you choose to do it during the stroke fine but your timing also needs to be good. but you are also cueing straight through the cueball.

Exactly... The issue then becomes timing. Bearing that in mind. Depending on that timing, you could still be arcing the tip during the forward stroke. This is not straight and the resulting CB hit will be glancing rather than stroke through. ...in the traditional sense.

i learned it myself 60 years ago before anyone ever heard the name by shooting the cueball for an hour or more just straight up and down the table and learning how to make it hit my point of aim and go to the spot i wanted after landing.
if you cant do that you are still a banger arguing over what you dont know.

I have zero doubt I could quickly learn shooting with BHE. Much like adopting TOI, or CTE (start the clock). However I still don't see any benefit in any of it so why bother.

That doesn't invalidate the methods for anyone. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Depending on that timing, you could still be arcing the tip during the forward stroke. This is not straight and the resulting CB hit will be glancing rather than stroke through.

Picking a nit...

It'll hit normally (non-glancing) if the swoop doesn't angle the cue at contact more than max offset with a straight stroke.

If during a swoop stroke we look at the CB along the angled line the tip is moving at contact, CB center and miscue limit are the same as if we were stroking straight from that direction. We'll only miscue if we swoop past that angle at contact.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

I think there's two discussions happening at the same time. The dynamics of BHE and then BHE with an additional lateral wrist bend during the stroke.

While I don't have an issue with pure BHE english. I don't believe it works as cleanly as some describe. I have no dog in that fight, but believe it's a method poised to do more damage then adding benefit.

Exactly... The issue then becomes timing. Bearing that in mind. Depending on that timing, you could still be arcing the tip during the forward stroke. This is not straight and the resulting CB hit will be glancing rather than stroke through. ...in the traditional sense.

I have zero doubt I could quickly learn shooting with BHE. Much like adopting TOI, or CTE (start the clock). However I still don't see any benefit in any of it so why bother.

That doesn't invalidate the methods for anyone. Just my 2 cents.

You could pretty easily learn back hand english. That is to say setting up with the cue stick on an angle with the back hand off of the shot line. Someone showed me the swoop stroke early in my pool playing days. Wish I could find them so I could strangle them slowly. After wasting months and engraining a swoop into my stroke I learned the truth. It is impossible to swoop across the face of a cue ball with any consistency.

The motions involved, the curves and angles, what I was trying to do wasn't possible. Most of the time the swoop was too soon or too late. On the rare occasion that the swoop was perfect the cue ball danced around the table like a wild child, however with no control and not doing what I intended. To this day if I put my hand all the way back on the bumper I am likely to swoop so I move it forward a little as soon as I feel the bumper.

Front hand english is superior to back hand english. The reason is because it results in a lesser cue stick angle to the line of cue ball travel. Resetting the bridge if it isn't set down perfectly for front hand english to begin with is the one slight disadvantage that goes almost completely away with continued usage. Function and ease of use, front hand english while never considered by most players is the english with the least issues.

Parallel Offset is what I use. Very easy to set up, a considerable education curve to learn to use it properly since both shot speed and offset of the cue come into play. I didn't try front hand english or quickly decided it wasn't for me very early in my pool playing. I used both back hand english and parallel offset at different times.

Blending two of the techniques for adding spin works surprisingly well as it eliminates some of the flaw created with any offset tip placement from the centerline.

Anyway, assuming you aren't one of the few using it, try front hand english for a few days when you have time. I think you will be agreeably surprised. There is no ideal way to apply side spin but I think it comes closest.

Hu

 

[maha]

everything works if you learn to use it properly and spend the time to ingrain it in your mind and stroke.

parallel i use often as well. but then it gets much tougher as you hit harder and longer. and you have to aim at a different spot on the object ball and know where that spot will be for your particular shot and speed.

its all part of getting good at the game and being well rounded.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Front hand english is superior to back hand english.

I think they're each superior for different cues - FHE makes a smaller angle, more suited to cues with longer pivot points (farther from the actual bridge); BHE makes a larger angle, more suited to cues with shorter pivot points (closer to the actual bridge).

But you're right in a sense... most pivot points are closer to the actual bridge ("BHE cues") than to the back hand ("FHE cues").

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

I think they're each superior for different cues - FHE makes a smaller angle, more suited to cues with longer pivot points (farther from the actual bridge); BHE makes a larger angle, more suited to cues with shorter pivot points (closer to the actual bridge).

pj
chgo

Oddly enough although we word things differently I think we are in general agreement. BHE works easiest when we can bridge at or near the pivot point. FHE is less sensitive to the bridge being at or near the pivot point.

Since bridge placement is often determined by other conditions this is one of the things giving FHE an edge.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Oddly enough although we word things differently I think we are in general agreement.

Yep.

BHE works easiest when we can bridge at or near the pivot point. FHE is less sensitive to the bridge being at or near the pivot point.

Since bridge placement is often determined by other conditions this is one of the things giving FHE an edge.

Good point. FHE also means you're using a low-deflection cue, an advantage for most.

pj
chgo

 

[maha]

why does FHE mean you are using a low deflecting cue???

 

[DeadStick]

It's a tiny supination or pronation (or any other movement of choice) to add 1.65 mm of english off the vertical axis.

You think hitting the CB only 1.65 mm off vertical center makes a significant difference in anything?

I’d be surprised if a good player’s standard deviation when attempting center CB isn’t bigger than that.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

why does FHE mean you are using a low deflecting cue???

Because pivoting at the back hand (basic FHE) only works with low deflection.

pj
chgo

 

[BRKNRUN]

Hey.....with all this BHE FHE PHE NHE talk....I came up with a new drill....kind of fun and (I think) beneficial at the same time...

I know I know....my laptop camera sucks buttermilk.....and disregard the twisty wrist at the end of my stroke....I was just channeling my inner Earl Strickland.....yeah...that's it...

Longish straight in Spinning Stop Shot.

EDIT - Used 10-ball as CB to show up better on my crappy camera

Have fun!!!

 

[straightline]

Just occurred to me, more familiar pivots might involve 4 wheel steering. I think I might do that sometimes; not sure yet.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just occurred to me, more familiar pivots might involve 4 wheel steering. I think I might do that sometimes; not sure yet.

I'm guessing "4 wheel steering" = moving both the front hand and back hand so the shaft crosses the shot line at a pivot point between them?

I agree and think the majority of side spin shots are aimed that way - few shots work with exact BHE, even fewer with exact FHE.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

For all of you anti-BHE posters that know sooo much about it...how many hours, days, months, years have you spent at the table actually using BHE either in practice, leagues, playing for money, etc. as opposed to conceptualizing what you think happens? My guess is very little to none.

How many tips or what part of the tip in fractions should be used if preset? Is it possible that tip size matters for calculations? (13mm tip vs. 10mm tip)? What do the offsets produce? Can draw (low) or follow (higher) be used as well as equator with the angled cue?

What do you aim at on the OB when using BHE as opposed to not using it-the same place or a different place?

IOW, if you're a contact point user do you choose the same point/spot or should it be thicker or thinner? How about a small amount of dynamic BHE? Thicker, thinner, or normal? How is dynamic BHE performed, is it a change of direction with the cue either to the right or left mid stroke with the arm (swoop)? Is it more in the fingers? Is it in the wrist? What?

If you can answer the questions above correctly with some semblance of personal knowledge that's great and shows BHE experience. If not, by beating around the bush, deflecting it with some wise ass remarks, or the typical ways of flipping it back without clear cut answers is nothing more than what always goes on. Mental pool or at the blackboard vs. at the table pool from experience.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey.....with all this BHE FHE PHE NHE talk....I came up with a new drill....kind of fun and (I think) beneficial at the same time...

I know I know....my laptop camera sucks buttermilk.....and disregard the twisty wrist at the end of my stroke....I was just channeling my inner Earl Strickland.....yeah...that's it...

Longish straight in Spinning Stop Shot.

EDIT - Used 10-ball as CB to show up better on my crappy camera

Have fun!!!

That's some oily wrist you have there!