Bias with Your Own Team's Playing Order? (long)

couldnthinkof01 said:
I didn't read all of it but this is what I see.
1st be a captain. Don't flip coins, pick each match up intentionally. Your the captain make a decision, people will respect that more.
2nd when you start the season decide if your team is there to win or have fun.
If you want to win YOU decide every match up every night to give you a chance to win. No wishy washy coin flippin b.s.
If your there for fun hell, flip coins for every match.
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You make some good points. But in this league, the top averages on each team MUST play each other all 3 games, the second highest averages on team team MUST play each other all 3 games, etc. The ONLY place bias can come into the process, is when two teammates have the exact same average. That's when a coin flip comes in as the most fair way to decide who plays who.

This was a unique situation where the other team's top player was WAY better than the second highest average player, and with only 2 weeks in the season left, whoever got to play the weaker player was pretty much a sure thing to take at least second place in the league.
 
Get_A_Grip said:
You make some good points. But in this league, the top averages on each team MUST play each other all 3 games, the second highest averages on team team MUST play each other all 3 games, etc. The ONLY place bias can come into the process, is when two teammates have the exact same average. That's when a coin flip comes in as the most fair way to decide who plays who.

This was a unique situation where the other team's top player was WAY better than the second highest average player, and with only 2 weeks in the season left, whoever got to play the weaker player was pretty much a sure thing to take at least second place in the league.
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Do you want a patch or something?
 
The other part of my original post that I don't recall anyone commenting on, is that most players tend of overlook how HUGE where someone plays in the order and whether they are playing the strongest or weakest players matters in how an individual will end up in the league standings.

I admit, most guys just don't like to think about these details. They just say, F it, I don't care where I play. But I have seen my captain in previous leagues, use this to enable him to take one of the top 3 spots before. Because I'm aware of exactly what they are doing now by insisting to play first every week, I don't allow that BS. If you are one of the top shooters on the team, I'm arguing that you SHOULD play in the order where it's most likely that you're playing the other teams best players.

I admit, I'm anal with this stuff. But I also know how shady and manipulative some players can be, to their benefit or their good buddies benefit on the team.
 
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HawaiianEye said:
Beating the lesser player would have given you pride?
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Beating him 3-0 and with maybe a table run or two to catch the guy in first place sure would have. That literally would have been the ONLY night in the whole season that I would have gotten to play a team's SECOND best player, instead of the top player.

Seems like a small thing, but that literally could determine who takes what top place in the league.
 
HawaiianEye said:
Beating the lesser player would have given you pride?
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As you are probably aware. Playing the top player might have meant that I never even got to the table until I got to break my 1 game. In fact, when I did play the their top player -- the first game, he barely missed a tough opening shot in the side and I ran out. The next game, I missed a tough opening shot, and he ran out. The third game came down to a safety battle that I won and then ran out.

Playing their second best player would have just meant that I would definitely get at least 1 chance to shoot each game, which I believe would be enough for me to beat him all 3 games. It doesn't mean that the other guy had no chance. Geez.
 
ideologist said:
It really should come down to flips when there's a payout at the end of the season for placement. Of course the team matters, but the captain potentially bumping one team member in money for another team member to go up in money is lame. Just take a break from that team, your life will improve

Also I'm sure your league dues are less than the payout, so maybe just find some cheap social games and live a more relaxed life
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Thanks. That how I view it too. I definitely won't play with these guys again. This was the first time that I had ever played with 2 of these guys on a team too, and 1 of them was the teammate that refused to accept the results of the coin flip.
 
alphadog said:
May I be Mr. Obvious and ask ,If you are the best player,why is your teammate tied with you?
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My teammates were all telling me that I'm the best player to try to justify me playing the stronger player. I agree with what you are saying. I believe that someone is only as good as their average (or rating). So if I'm tied with that guy near the end of the season, then he and I are tied period.

The one difference that could be argued in this league is, I've stayed either as the top average on my team or the second highest average throughout the season. As someone drops in average versus their teammates, then that person the next week gets to play the lower ranked player on the other team. So some players on our team have swung from being the number 5 player on our team to being the number 1 player, then back to being the number 5 player. While I stayed either number 1 or number 2 until I stopped playing.

This whole dynamic makes it super obvious how WHO YOU PLAY and how good they are is an absolutely huge factor in who places where at the end of the year. Unless of course there is one player WAY better than the rest on the team.
 
Get_A_Grip said:
What blows my mind is that NOBODY on our team and nobody in this thread has any problem with the teammate that refused to accept the results of the coin flip and cried to the captain to overrule it. IMO, that guy was the real problem that started all of this.
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I think because nearly all people commenting wouldn't have given that guy a chance to play the top shooter
 
The_JV said:
I think because nearly all people commenting wouldn't have given that guy a chance to play the top shooter
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I would. I play and gamble with the other team's top shooter all the time. While I won 2 out of 3 games when I did play him, he could have just as easily beat me 2 games. A challenge is one thing, but if you know how someone plays there really isn't much mystery.

I realize that with pool players, ego and bravado is a huge thing. But if my teammate and I are tied, and he really wants to be second place in the entire league, you would think that he wouldn't mind playing their top player. All I'm saying is that all of the criticisms directed at me, most certainly should be directed at my teammate even more for what he did. I just wanted to abide by the results of a fair flip.
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lorider said:
The main problem here is that you have a bunch of amatuers playing for money. Well greed probably takes first place.

I used to play in a money league and was a captain that decided to put together a dream team and as a result we came in first twice in a row. However there was a bunch of drama that ensued at the end of both sessions that caused me to disband the team and quit money league entirely..

The first session i had a few players argue that they played more matches than other players consequently paying more dues over the session and therefore believed they should be paid more....this after we all agreed at the begining if the session to split whatever we won evenly amongst the entire team..

At the start of the second session we all agreed to split the weekly fee evenly amongst the team whether you played or not...ensuring every one had paid the same amount at the end of the session.

Now the above caused a headache in itself trying to get the fee the following week if some one didnt show. Being the captain i paid the missing players share each week and it was a pain in the azz keeping track of who owed me and having to hear they didnt have it that week .

Then if that was not bad enough ...when we came in first again our best player decided he should get more than any one else because he won more matches and without him we would not have came in first. That really got me. So i threw him a 20.00 out if my pile and said the team is through .

Apa has its problems but i never face as much drama like i did in money leagues.
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The fairest way to split year end money is to:

a) First, repay each player's initial league registration fees
then
b) Split the remaining money according to nights played. Each night is worth one share. Divide the prize money by total number of shares, and pay accordingly.

Set it up this way at the start of the year, and there's no room for disputes. Extra tournaments throughout the year are split between the players that show up for the tournament.

Any other method is going to fuel disputes and hard feelings no matter what you do.
 
Have the league operator get rid of the extra money pay out for 1st, 2nd & 3rd place individuals along with the trophies. Take those extra dollars and put it into the team payouts. Will solve some of the drama being talked about.

Take advantage of having the visitor lineup tailored to matching up best you can with your nightly opponent. As a captain I used to have a solid home lineup and visitor lineup, but that was in a 5 man 25 game format.
 
Fore Rail said:
Have the league operator get rid of the extra money pay out for 1st, 2nd & 3rd place individuals along with the trophies. Take those extra dollars and put it into the team payouts. Will solve some of the drama being talked about.

Take advantage of having the visitor lineup tailored to matching up best you can with your nightly opponent. As a captain I used to have a solid home lineup and visitor lineup, but that was in a 5 man 25 game format.
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No individual payouts for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd would solve most of this like you said. But this league also has an "all-star" tournament at the end of the season too. Where the top player on each team gets to play in a separate tournament against each other for a chance to win even more money. So there really is a big incentive to take number 1 on your team, as well as taking one of the top 3 spots in the league.
 
Get_A_Grip said:
You make some good points. But in this league, the top averages on each team MUST play each other all 3 games, the second highest averages on team team MUST play each other all 3 games, etc. The ONLY place bias can come into the process, is when two teammates have the exact same average. That's when a coin flip comes in as the most fair way to decide who plays who.

This was a unique situation where the other team's top player was WAY better than the second highest average player, and with only 2 weeks in the season left, whoever got to play the weaker player was pretty much a sure thing to take at least second place in the league
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The fact that he was willing to let you two flip a coin about it, is the same reason he screwed you.
Captain picks the lineup no questions asked. Don't trust the guy play on a different team.
 
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Get_A_Grip said:
So there really is a big incentive to take number 1 on your team, as well as taking one of the top 3 spots in the league.
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So if I'm following along correctly. You are the top shooter based on wins...?..., or is it the other guy..?

I know you did the coin flip thing and that was the precedent set by the last similar situation. However IMO regardless of the actual lack of rule the most wins should have determined the top player on your team, and therefore determined who plays who. Not sure what side of that you would have ended up on, but it is what it is. If we're going to sticklers about who the best player is, then math is our friend.

To satisfy your thirst for satisfaction. I agree that the other dude and the captain on your team screwed you. Lesson learnt I suppose...
 
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