We go by winning percentage. That's it. Our winning percentage was exactly the same. We were both tied for second in the league and tied for number 1 on our team.
Bias with Your Own Team's Playing Order? (long)
- Thread starter Get_A_Grip
- Start date
Sry... that snippet from the first post threw me off. I thought you could have the same winning percentage but have different total wins. If that is a possible case, then I agree most wins is the best player. Regardless of what the coin says
Yeah, normally that's the case. But in this league the captain DOESN'T have any flexibility to choose. Because the highest average player MUST play the other teams highest average player, etc. The only time to make a decision or flip a coin is if two people on your team have exactly the same average.
I think that it actually IS possible to play less nights than the other guy, have less total games played and less wins, but have the averages comes out exactly the same. But the point is, the league itself doesn't use total wins or anything else to break a tie. The same winning percentage pretty much means you and the other guy are playing at the same level.
The “biased“ decision from the captain was based on what he felt was best for the team. Given what you had posted initially, I would have made the same decision. Again, based on what was best for the team. That’s what a good captain does...
That wouldn't bother me. I'd rather stay home and play 14.1 in my basement than show up and play bangers every week in a league. I used to actually feel bad about beating some of the bangers.
I was in a league with a woman who was paralyzed in a car accident. She and her husband were great people. I got no enjoyment out of beating them.
That's just me. If you feel differently then that's fine.
The only way me playing the stronger player would be better for the team would be if I was a huge favorite to beat either opponent all 3 games and my teammate wasn't. But that wasn't the case. Instead, it helped my teammate that cried about not wanting to play the better player.
Even if my teammate only wins 1 game against the stronger player and I win all 3 games against the weaker player, like I was a favorite to do, the team still gets 4 total games from both of us. That's the same number of games we got with me playing the stronger player.
The only difference was, I got one less win as an individual that I should have gotten and my teammate got 1 more win as an individual than he might not have gotten.
So the end result was, no benefit to the team at all. Rather it resulted in my captain transferring an individual win of mine to my teammate.
People can say whatever they want, but the numbers are the reality. A coin flip is the only fair way to do it. All other justifications are just a feel-good fantasy IMO.
Saying that, "It's for the good of the team", turned out to be just like the people who keep saying that, "It's for the children". Just a bunch of feel-good liberal BS with no basis in reality.
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And my main point is, with extra money on the line, trophies on the line, and the extra "all-star tournament" on the line, a captain should never make that decision himself. It should always be a fair coin flip that gives each player an equal chance to take number one as an individual. Anything else introduces bias against one player.
I'm spelling all of this out to hopefully prevent other captains from making a similar mistake.
One other thing the captain should never have done. If both players agree with his suggestion then fine. But if I'm telling him that we already flipped for it like the last time, and he disregards my opinion and essentially forces his will on me. What does he think will happen? As soon as one player didn't agree, a fair coin flip should have been used IMO.
I just decided to back out of the league and let the teammate and captain take second and third in the league. That's what they wanted anyway. So now they got it. I just lost a few friends as a result.
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Nope... Most wins is the only way to do it. Having a 75% winning average over 10 games is no where near as strong as 75% over 20 games.
In reality if you and the other player had waited for the captian to do his job, then all the hurt feelings could have been avoided. The use of the coin flip should have been his call, if he thought it was warranted. Obviously he either thought you had the better chance against the top opponent or he was protecting his buddy. One is a complement, the other is unfortunate. Would you be complaining or bragging if you managed the win over the better opponent and held on to stop spot on your team...?
Bunk. That's like saying you quit pool cuz you scratched or could scratch.
Leagues are one of pool's last refuges.
Jeff Livingston
The only way me playing the stronger player would be better for the team would be if I was a huge favorite to beat either opponent all 3 games and my teammate wasn't. But that wasn't the case. Instead, it helped my teammate that cried about not wanting to play the better player.
Even if my teammate only wins 1 game against the stronger player and I win all 3 games against the weaker player, like I was a favorite to do, the team still gets 4 total games from both of us. That's the same number of games we got with me playing the stronger player.
The only difference was, I got one less win as an individual that I should have gotten and my teammate got 1 more win as an individual than he might not have gotten.
So the end result was, no benefit to the team at all. Rather it resulted in my captain transferring an individual win of mine to my teammate.
People can say whatever they want, but the numbers are the reality. A coin flip is the only fair way to do it. All other justifications are just a feel-good fantasy IMO.
Saying that, "It's for the good of the team", turned out to be just like the people who keep saying that, "It's for the children". Just a bunch of feel-good liberal BS with no basis in reality.
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By your own admission, you were both big favorites to win all three games against the weaker player. That means the decision is really about who plays the stronger player. The captain should play the person he perceives to be the stronger player against their stronger player because that increases the likelihood of more wins against that stronger player, and ultimately more wins for the team as a whole. That’s the captain‘s responsibility to the entire team to maximize the team winnings.
The fact that your other guy only won two out of three games is irrelevant. You might not have done any better. We just don’t know. Nothing is guaranteed. Better players can lose to weaker players, but you play the odds. The odds were that your other guy would win three games and that you would have a better chance to win more games against their better player than he would have.
Leadership by committee doesn’t work. Your captain did exactly what I would’ve done in the same situation.
It’s easy to judge in hindsight but the way the captain played it had more upside. You have to figure the other guy would get 1 game against the top guy and you get 3. Total of 4. Best possible would be 5 if he managed to win 2.The only way me playing the stronger player would be better for the team would be if I was a huge favorite to beat either opponent all 3 games and my teammate wasn't. But that wasn't the case. Instead, it helped my teammate that cried about not wanting to play the better player.
Even if my teammate only wins 1 game against the stronger player and I win all 3 games against the weaker player, like I was a favorite to do, the team still gets 4 total games from both of us. That's the same number of games we got with me playing the stronger player.
The only difference was, I got one less win as an individual that I should have gotten and my teammate got 1 more win as an individual than he might not have gotten.
So the end result was, no benefit to the team at all. Rather it resulted in my captain transferring an individual win of mine to my teammate.
People can say whatever they want, but the numbers are the reality. A coin flip is the only fair way to do it. All other justifications are just a feel-good fantasy IMO.
Saying that, "It's for the good of the team", turned out to be just like the people who keep saying that, "It's for the children". Just a bunch of feel-good liberal BS with no basis in reality.
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The way he played it weaker guy has solid chance to get 3 against weaker player and you are a lock to get 2 against better player with a solid chance to get 3. For an expected total of 5 with a good chance for 6 points.
I think the captain made the best choice.
Heck yeah it would bug me if my teammate and I flipped a coin and he lobbied for the flip to be overturned. But I probably would have deferred to the captain in the first place without flipping the coin.
JC
Coos Cues
This thread reminds me of a team we played in BCA one night.
After the match was over the other team's captain Jimmy took off right away and the other 4 players were there still.
Since I am league president and our team captain one lady on his team asked me "Jimmy said the team captain has to play first is this right"? I told her no he is free to play the team in any order he wants.
A second player on his team then asked to no one in particular " Then why does he play first"?
A third player replied "And why is he team captain"?
The final player then asked "Why does he even play pool'?
I was relieved there was no one left to ask the next obvious question.
After the match was over the other team's captain Jimmy took off right away and the other 4 players were there still.
Since I am league president and our team captain one lady on his team asked me "Jimmy said the team captain has to play first is this right"? I told her no he is free to play the team in any order he wants.
A second player on his team then asked to no one in particular " Then why does he play first"?
A third player replied "And why is he team captain"?
The final player then asked "Why does he even play pool'?
I was relieved there was no one left to ask the next obvious question.
You read it wrong. I never said that we were both big favorites to win all 3 games against the weaker player. I said that "I" was a strong favorite to win all 3 games against the weaker player. In fact, the other guy only beat the weaker player 2 games, although, my teammate did blow a chance to win the 3rd game.
You need to figure things based on the odds. The odds are that I beat the weaker player all 3 games. My teammate has played the stronger player in the past and won 1 game.
The bottom line is, either way we played was a WASH as far as the team was concerned. The actual real-life matches we've played proves that I'm likely correct on that. A captain CANNOT use bias and must use a coin flip in this type of situation. I agree. You would have screwed me just like my captain did. Congrats.
I should add that I know what you will say next. So you're admitting that you are the better player than your teammate?
I am the more skilled player. I have a Fargo Rating, but my teammate doesn't have one yet. But this goes back to my other point, that a person is only as good as their league average. If it's the end of the season and he and I are tied for second place, then we ARE EQUAL as far as playing is this league is concerned. If this guy got fortunate and played above his head to get tied for second place, then that's not my problem. He needs to accept a fair coin flip, put his big boy pants on, and EARN second place in the league. Not be "gifted" second place by his captain buddy.
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Tell that to the guy who lost the coin flip. Play whoever the coin says to play, and stop whining to the captain to overturn it.
You do realize that the only reason that one person would have more total wins is because the other person MISSED a week right? They didn't win any more games than they lost than the other person did. So total wins is NOT the best way to do it.
He was being nice to his buddy. His buddy whined and he overruled the coin flip.
I didn't have a lock to get 2 games against the stronger player. I gamble with that guy all of the time. He could have easily beat me 2 or even 3 games. In a short number of games, runout players could easily skunk each other. But the weaker player had NO table runs in the league thus far. So the odds of me beating him all 3 games was very high. The main point is still for any captain reading this, do not F over one teammate in this type of a situation versus another when individual rewards are on the line.
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