Bias with Your Own Team's Playing Order? (long)

[David in FL]

Fargo Rating tells you in an objective manner, what your true skill level is. As a different poster just mentioned in this thread, when you play every player on the other team every night, the standings at the end of the year match everyone's Fargo Rating. The highest rated players (by Fargo) are above the lower rated players in the final standings. Do you not understand why this would be?

What I don’t understand is why having a FargoRate rating, simply having it, would make any difference whatsoever.

Everyone in my BCA leagues has a Fargo rating. Some are approaching 700. Some beginners are mid-200’s. Simply having a rating means nothing.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

What I don’t understand is why having a FargoRate rating, simply having it, would make any difference whatsoever.

Everyone in my BCA leagues has a Fargo rating. Some are approaching 700. Some beginners are mid-200’s. Simply having a rating means nothing.

Oh, people were asking if I was better than my teammate. If he HAD a rating, then we would know exactly how much better I am than him. Right now, all I can say is that I think I'm more highly skilled than him, but since we are tied in the league -- we are the same as far as the league is concerned.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Oh, people were asking if I was better than my teammate. If he HAD a rating, then we would know exactly how much better I am than him. Right now, all I can say is that I think I'm more highly skilled than him, but since we are tied in the league -- we are the same as far as the league is concerned.

If you think you are the better player, you should have played last.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

If you think you are the better player, you should have played last.

That is certainly your opinion. Doesn't make it any more valid than my opinion. I think if two people are tied for second in the league, the guy who loses the flip should play their best player. If you want to take second place in the league you shouldn't cry to the captain if you lose to flip to have him overrule it. That's my opinion. This is why leagues where each player plays every one of the other team's players each night is the best way to go. That way, nobody gets an advantage in the individual standings due to playing much weaker players.

See my post that I made #109
Post #109 shows an example in a different league that I'm in where the 3rd highest skilled player in this area is the number 1 player in the league due to him playing first every week and playing the other teams weakest players. You could say, he should play last. But he doesn't. He's gaming the system so he can be higher as an individual in the league than he otherwise would be.

I'm just trying to abide by a fair coin flip, not to play the weakest player on the other team, but to just play their SECOND BEST player. For my teammate not to accept that, seems to be the bigger issue to me.

 

[lorider]

Oh, people were asking if I was better than my teammate. If he HAD a rating, then we would know exactly how much better I am than him. Right now, all I can say is that I think I'm more highly skilled than him, but since we are tied in the league -- we are the same as far as the league is concerned.

I have not read all your posts but regardless the coin flip...your team mate whining....your captain lying....the bottom line is you wanted to duck the highest rated player on the other team in hopes of finishing higher in the money. Your captain may or may not have been thinking of the team but you were obviously thinking of yourself.

Your captain had no need to lie to try and justify his choice as to who played last....btw i agree with his choice as you yourself claim to be a superior player to your team mate who was tied with you.

I am a captain of 2 teams and have been a captain of one of them for 10 years. I never resorted to a coin flip and if for any reason one of my players wanted to duck who i matched them up with and wanted a coin flip i would kick them off the team. Not a dictator but just want to avoid drama such as what you were involved in.

I dont mean to sound harsh but its just my view and apparently many others based on what you posted.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

I have not read all your posts but regardless the coin flip...your team mate whining....your captain lying....the bottom line is you wanted to duck the highest rated player on the other team in hopes of finishing higher in the money. Your captain may or may not have been thinking of the team but you were obviously thinking of yourself.

Your captain had no need to lie to try and justify his choice as to who played last....btw i agree with his choice as you yourself claim to be a superior player to your team mate who was tied with you.

I am a captain of 2 teams and have been a captain of one of them for 10 years. I never resorted to a coin flip and if for any reason one of my players wanted to duck who i matched them up with and wanted a coin flip i would kick them off the team. Not a dictator but just want to avoid drama such as what you were involved in.

I dont mean to sound harsh but its just my view and apparently many others based on what you posted.

I actually didn't want to duck the other team's best player. I wanted to abide by whatever the coin flip indicated, like we did before in the same situation where I lost the flip. Obviously, this was so that I had a chance to catch the guy that was first place in the league.

I still believe that a coin flip is the correct way to deal with it when there is extra price money, trophies, and an extra tournament to play in for the top individual player on each team. Especially if one of the players doesn't think that they should be the one to bite the bullet. If any player regardless of their skill is tied for second place in the league, for whatever reason, they should also need to step up and prove that they deserve to be second in the league.

I pretty much PROVED that it was not a benefit to our team for me to play the other team's best player. The odds were that we get 4 total wins regardless of which player played their best player. I think that a lot of people are fooling themselves when they think that it's best for the team for the best player on each team to play each other in every case.

I think what essentially is going on here is that people feel sorry for the weaker teammate and they don't care if the best player on the team takes the top spot on the team or in the league. In any league where you don't play every player on the other team each night, this type of bias against the best player is going to happen. This appears to be a fact based on what many people are saying here. While it's true that if I was so much better than any player on the other team and I was a favorite to beat any of them all 3 games, then you all would be correct. But it's just a statistical fact that if my teammate gets the gift of playing the weaker player, he is essentially being gifted the top spot on our team and second place in the league. That IS the reality. How you all spin it is irrelevant to me.

 

[David in FL]

How you all spin it is irrelevant to me.

Then perhaps you shouldn’t have asked our opinion.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Then perhaps you shouldn’t have asked our opinion.

I did want to hear people's opinions. But I've thought this out a lot, and I'm convinced the only fair way to deal with extra individual awards is to flip a coin to see who is going to play the tougher player and get less wins.

And what I meant by "spin" is that I don't think some of you understand that it wasn't for the benefit of the team for me to play their best player. People have false perceptions, so when they make conclusions based on those fallacies, it's "spin" and not a valid or correct conclusion.

 

[JC]

I did want to hear people's opinions. But I've thought this out a lot, and I'm convinced the only fair way to deal with extra individual awards is to flip a coin to see who is going to play the tougher player and get less wins.

Is the only time you see your rival team mate on league night? Have you never played each other to establish the pecking order? I have gambled with every member of my team who's game and that's pretty much everyone because those are they types I like to roll with. You know, the kind with actual flesh and blood balls.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Is the only time you see your rival team mate on league night? Have you never played each other to establish the pecking order? I have gambled with every member of my team who's game and that's pretty much everyone because those are they types I like to roll with. You know, the kind with actual flesh and blood balls.

None of my teammates will gamble with me. Only the strongest player on that OTHER TEAM that we played gambles with me all of the time.

It drives one guy on our team crazy when people tell him that I am better than him. He sees me gambling with the guy from the other team and he keeps telling me that he will smoke me if I give him the spots that I give that other guy.

So two weeks ago, just he and I are practicing on the weekend, and I win the first two games in practice. Then he says, lets play a race to 7 and he puts coins on the table to mark the games. I told him that if we are going to play races, we should at least play for a little something to make it mean more for us. And he refused. So we play the race and I beat him 7-0. He was very unhappy and uncomfortable. I don't normally beat him by more than a couple games in a race to 7. But now I ruined his whole theory that I could never give him a big spot and win.

After that, this teammate told someone else that I know that it's no fun playing with me anymore. Gee, I wonder why. If his goal was to prove that I'm not better than him, that failed miserably.

Anyway, that guy wasn't involved in the coin flipped issue at all. But after I was already signed up with him to play scotch doubles in the State Tournament, he told me he's not playing anymore. So he and I are no longer friends either.

So yeah, this little coin flip overruling pretty much ruined my friendship with the entire team. But I'm fine with it actually. I have other guys to play with.

 

[lorider]

I actually didn't want to duck the other team's best player. I wanted to abide by whatever the coin flip indicated, like we did before in the same situation where I lost the flip. Obviously, this was so that I had a chance to catch the guy that was first place in the league.

I still believe that a coin flip is the correct way to deal with it when there is extra price money, trophies, and an extra tournament to play in for the top individual player on each team. Especially if one of the players doesn't think that they should be the one to bite the bullet. If any player regardless of their skill is tied for second place in the league, for whatever reason, they should also need to step up and prove that they deserve to be second in the league.

I pretty much PROVED that it was not a benefit to our team for me to play the other team's best player. The odds were that we get 4 total wins regardless of which player played their best player. I think that a lot of people are fooling themselves when they think that it's best for the team for the best player on each team to play each other in every case.

I think what essentially is going on here is that people feel sorry for the weaker teammate and they don't care if the best player on the team takes the top spot on the team or in the league. In any league where you don't play every player on the other team each night, this type of bias against the best player is going to happen. This appears to be a fact based on what many people are saying here. While it's true that if I was so much better than any player on the other team and I was a favorite to beat any of them all 3 games, then you all would be correct. But it's just a statistical fact that if my teammate gets the gift of playing the weaker player, he is essentially being gifted the top spot on our team and second place in the league. That IS the reality. How you all spin it is irrelevant to me.

It seems to me that you do not have the mentality to be a team player. Maybe you should spend your time playing local tournaments or something where all you have to do is worry about yorself.

I captain 2 teams as i said earlier. A few weeks ago we were in a city qualifier where the winner goes on and hopefully qualifies for vegas...in effect we were playing for a chance to collect money.

We had went undefeated all the way to the semi finals. I had not played our w at all during the tournament. Almost every team plays their 5 best players they have while still meeting the handicap limit.

I decided to play my 2 knowing there was a chance for the team to be knocked out of the tournament. I recieved several wtf? Looks from the rest of the team but no one said anything. Well lo and behold our 2 beats a 4 by 2-0. Her opponent basically beat himself with an early 8 and a scratch on the 8. And we moved on to the finals. at that moment this woman had to have been the happiest woman in the entire city. She had a 2-10 record at the time.

My philosphy is we play as a team and we lose as a team.

There is rarely any drama on my teams because i avoid having 2 types of players. Those that put theirselves above the team and those that think they are better than they really are.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

It seems to me that you do not have the mentality to be a team player. Maybe you should spend your time playing local tournaments or something where all you have to do is worry about yorself.

I captain 2 teams as i said earlier. A few weeks ago we were in a city qualifier where the winner goes on and hopefully qualifies for vegas...in effect we were playing for a chance to collect money.

We had went undefeated all the way to the semi finals. I had not played our w at all during the tournament. Almost every team plays their 5 best players they have while still meeting the handicap limit.

I decided to play my 2 knowing there was a chance for the team to be knocked out of the tournament. I recieved several wtf? Looks from the rest of the team but no one said anything. Well lo and behold our 2 beats a 4 by 2-0. Her opponent basically beat himself with an early 8 and a scratch on the 8. And we moved on to the finals. at that moment this woman had to have been the happiest woman in the entire city. She had a 2-10 record at the time.

My philosphy is we play as a team and we lose as a team.

There is rarely any drama on my teams because i avoid having 2 types of players. Those that put theirselves above the team and those that think they are better than they really are.

That's fair enough. I had a goal to try to take first in this league as an individual. But our team got along great up until the overruling the coin flip point. My general feeling is that being the strongest player on a team is a tough thing. People can get jealous and any bias always seems to be against the best player. That's just how human nature seems to work. I plan to play in a different league next year where it's a 4-man team and each person has to play every person on the other team each night. That will 100% solve the bias with who plays who.

 

[HawaiianEye]

None of my teammates will gamble with me. Only the strongest player on that OTHER TEAM that we played gambles with me all of the time.

It drives one guy on our team crazy when people tell him that I am better than him. He sees me gambling with the guy from the other team and he keeps telling me that he will smoke me if I give him the spots that I give that other guy.

So two weeks ago, just he and I are practicing on the weekend, and I win the first two games in practice. Then he says, lets play a race to 7 and he puts coins on the table to mark the games. I told him that if we are going to play races, we should at least play for a little something to make it mean more for us. And he refused. So we play the race and I beat him 7-0. He was very unhappy and uncomfortable. I don't normally beat him by more than a couple games in a race to 7. But now I ruined his whole theory that I could never give him a big spot and win.

After that, this teammate told someone else that I know that it's no fun playing with me anymore. Gee, I wonder why. If his goal was to prove that I'm not better than him, that failed miserably.

Anyway, that guy wasn't involved in the coin flipped issue at all. But after I was already signed up with him to play scotch doubles in the State Tournament, he told me he's not playing anymore. So he and I are no longer friends either.

So yeah, this little coin flip overruling pretty much ruined my friendship with the entire team. But I'm fine with it actually. I have other guys to play with.

Does the strongest player on the other team spot you when you gamble?

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Does the strongest player on the other team spot you when you gamble?

No. He can't really afford to lose much money. So to get him to play, I need to spot him. I used to be ahead of him even giving him big spots, but he is now ahead of me. The last time we played, I beat him in 8-ball giving him 7-6 and all of the breaks. But then he beat me in 9-ball with me giving him the 9-ball and all of the breaks.

When we first started gambling together, I gave him the following spots in 8-ball and beat him:
9-5 and he gets all of the breaks
6-3
5-3 and he gets all of the breaks
I lost giving him 9-5 and he gets the first 3 breaks (I lost on the hill)

Now that he's ahead on the money, I spot him a lot less now.

EDIT: The two times I've played him this year in leagues, I beat him 2-1. My teammate played him once this year and he lost to him 1-2.

Oh, I should point out that our Fargo Rates (603 vs 540) say that I should only be giving him 7-6.

 

[HawaiianEye]

No. He can't really afford to lose much money. So to get him to play, I need to spot him. I used to be ahead of him even giving him big spots, but he is now ahead of me. The last time we played, I beat him in 8-ball giving him 7-6 and all of the breaks. But then he beat me in 9-ball with me giving him the 9-ball and all of the breaks.

When we first started gambling together, I gave him the following spots in 8-ball and beat him:
9-5 and he gets all of the breaks
6-3
5-3 and he gets all of the breaks
I lost giving him 9-5 and he gets the first 3 breaks (I lost on the hill)

Now that he's ahead on the money, I spot him a lot less now.

EDIT: The two times I've played him this year in leagues, I beat him 2-1. My teammate played him once this year and he lost to him 1-2.

Oh, I should point out that our Fargo Rates (603 vs 540) say that I should only be giving him 7-6.

So, you spot the guy you didn’t want to play in the league?

 

[Get_A_Grip]

So, you spot the guy you didn’t want to play in the league?

It's not that I didn't want to play him. I wanted who we played to be determined by a fair coin flip. Ask yourself this question. If my teammate is far inferior to me, how is he tied for second place in the league? And since he is tied for second place, why was HE afraid to play the guy that I spot?

I'll tell you why. Because he wanted to stay in second place. If I play the second best person on the other team, I'm a huge favorite to win all 3 games against him and maybe get a table run to get an extra point. Like I keep saying, as far as the team is concerned, the team will get the same number of points from my teammate and I either way.

Overruling the coin flip basically gave second place to my teammate. It was his to lose. He choked on his third game and only beat their second best player 2 games. But still. He and I were tied yet again, and the following week we would have had to go through this BS all over again.

 

[HawaiianEye]

It's not that I didn't want to play him. I wanted who we played to be determined by a fair coin flip. Ask yourself this question. If my teammate is far inferior to me, how is he tied for second place in the league? And since he is tied for second place, why was HE afraid to play the guy that I spot?

I'll tell you why. Because he wanted to stay in second place. If I play the second best person on the other team, I'm a huge favorite to win all 3 games against him and maybe get a table run to get an extra point. Like I keep saying, as far as the team is concerned, the team will get the same number of points from my teammate and I either way.

Overruling the coin flip basically gave second place to my teammate. It was his to lose. He choked on his third game and only beat their second best player 2 games. But still. He and I were tied yet again, and the following week we would have had to go through this BS all over again.

What kept you from beating the guy you played?

 

[Get_A_Grip]

What kept you from beating the guy you played?

I beat him 2-1. The first game, he missed a tough opening shot in the side, and I ran out. The next game, I missed a tough opening shot, and he ran out. The third game, we had a safety battle that I won, and I ran out.

I am NOT a favorite to beat their best player more than 2 games out of 3. And as you know, a dry break or any number of things could have let him beat me 2 or 3 games. But since their number 2 player can't really run out, I'm a huge favorite to beat him all 3 games.

If I beat their second best player 3-0 and got a table run or two, I would have been right behind the guy all alone in first place. And realistically, that was the ONLY way I could have possibly had a crack at first place, was to play the guy that I could beat 3-0.

Once I no longer had a chance to get first place as an individual and because the captain lied to my face, I decided to stop playing on this team. I let them split my money between them and my teammate and the captain now took second and third place in the league. Extra money and trophies for them. That's exactly what they wanted, so I gave it to them. The team took first place in the league too. Our team was ahead the whole way, so that wasn't really ever at risk.

 

[Bluewire686]

wow in some cases thats alot drama over a pool league we flip the coin if they pick we counter with who we think will best match and go on. It works we win alot we are there to be competitive and enjoy the matches

 

[JC]

No. He can't really afford to lose much money. So to get him to play, I need to spot him. I used to be ahead of him even giving him big spots, but he is now ahead of me. The last time we played, I beat him in 8-ball giving him 7-6 and all of the breaks. But then he beat me in 9-ball with me giving him the 9-ball and all of the breaks.

When we first started gambling together, I gave him the following spots in 8-ball and beat him:
9-5 and he gets all of the breaks
6-3
5-3 and he gets all of the breaks
I lost giving him 9-5 and he gets the first 3 breaks (I lost on the hill)

Now that he's ahead on the money, I spot him a lot less now.

EDIT: The two times I've played him this year in leagues, I beat him 2-1. My teammate played him once this year and he lost to him 1-2.

Oh, I should point out that our Fargo Rates (603 vs 540) say that I should only be giving him 7-6.

I don't know where you live but if the top dog is 603 and the next best is 540 it sounds a lot like my little town. I live large until I run up to Portland or Salem where I am rapidly humbled.