Big Events should all have Streaming.

[JoeyA]

I just don't get it. ALL of the big events, not to single out any particular event but don't these promoters and pool room owners realize that this is probably some of the cheapest forms of advertisment that they can get.

If I owned a pool room or promoted an event, I would set out an agenda and would discuss it with the Live Streamer and make sure that my agenda was followed to the letter. I might even do this in advance so that the live streamer could promote my event IN ADVANCE at other events taking place beforehand.

Event promoters SHOULD throw a few dollars toward the Live Streamers to talk about their events at other tournament live streams.

In addition to that, it is becoming obvious to me that more and more people are watching the live streams as more and more people become aware that it even exists in our sport.

Event promoters and pool rooms SHOULD BE CONTACTING their local leagues and making alliances with the league promoters and making the live stream announcements.

TOURNAMENT PROMOTION BIG OR SMALL, should have part of all of the following:

1. Group Text Messaging: Simple to do, fast, economical and takes very little organization. Cell phone numbers can be collected at the establishments and ONE single text message can go out to a whole group and that only takes minutes to do.

2. Put "flyer announcements" in the league players envelopes.
3. Ask the league operator to send out an email message for you. (It's a two way street and you could help out the league operators by promoting their league with signage in your establishment) who knows maybe for a fee. I am AMAZED that league operators don't ask the establishment if it is OK to put up a small attractive banner in the pool rooms.

4. Live Stream Advertising: Live Streamers should be hustling the future tournament events and offering to "advertise" their tournaments. Maybe have a separate little section dedicated primarily to future events, local, regional and national. The Live Streamers wouldn't have to charge an arm and a leg for this, just something nominal that the tournament promoters wouldn't feel like they were having a tooth pulled.

5. Let's not forget some tournament announcements on AZ Billiards and maybe some OPEN discussion about the events. Tournament promoters and pool room owners are shooting themselves in the foot by not participating in this medium. It's economical, hell, it's FREE and doesn't take that much time.

6. Casino promoters are in a separate class by themselves. How easy would it be for them to send out a small footnote on those post cards or email broadcasts announcing a "special pocket billiard event"? Some people might just come and check out the newest pool talent or just come out to see one of the old timers from yesteryear.

I believe that if the promoters got more actively involved in promoting their events they would be packing their establishments, filling their events AND THEIR POCKETS.

One of the upsides of all of the "talk" that I am suggesting is that pool promoters and pool room owners MIGHT FIND OUT WHAT THEIR CUSTOMER BASE REALLY WANTS.

There's lots of things out there that promoters could be doing and in my opinion, they're just not doing it.

Maybe I should just charge a fee for every tournament promoter who wants to get it done right and do their promoting for them?

 

[JAM]

JoeyA, I agree with your thoughts.

The problem may be that the pool room owners and/or tournament promoters are already forking out a lot of dough to host the event, losing revenue, et cetera. I know you are very much aware of all the expenses that are incurred in holding a professional-caliber or high-profile pool tournament.

The livestreams, though they seem like they have a thousand viewers, the majority of them are bots. The livestreams are fun for people like us, but there aren't enough of us watching to make it cost effective for those who produce the livestreams -- at least not yet.

Most livestream peeps do it as a labor of love because of their deep passion for pool. The same is true for pool room owners who host pool tournaments, tournament directors who don't get paid, regional tournament directors who run regional tours, et cetera, et cetera.

I think it boils down to pool is not a good spectator sport. Me personally, I don't have time to watch a livestream all day long. The chats are interesting, but sometimes life's responsibilities get in the way of sitting at the computer for such a lengthy period of time. Heck, I do that already for my job.

When it becomes cost effective for the host room owner, the tournament producer, and the livestream entity, it might help the current state of affairs. I am sick that the recent Qatar WPC with Bustie winning wasn't recorded.

 

[JAM]

...There's lots of things out there that promoters could be doing and in my opinion, they're just not doing it....

Actually, the concept you suggest won the Presidency for Barack Obama. It's called "community organizing." :wink:

You just might be on to something here!

 

[pro9dg]

I just don't get it. ALL of the big events, not to single out any particular event but don't these promoters and pool room owners realize that this is probably some of the cheapest forms of advertisment that they can get.

If I owned a pool room or promoted an event, I would set out an agenda and would discuss it with the Live Streamer and make sure that my agenda was followed to the letter. I might even do this in advance so that the live streamer could promote my event IN ADVANCE at other events taking place beforehand.

Event promoters SHOULD throw a few dollars toward the Live Streamers to talk about their events at other tournament live streams.

In addition to that, it is becoming obvious to me that more and more people are watching the live streams as more and more people become aware that it even exists in our sport.

Event promoters and pool rooms SHOULD BE CONTACTING their local leagues and making alliances with the league promoters and making the live stream announcements.

TOURNAMENT PROMOTION BIG OR SMALL, should have part of all of the following:

1. Group Text Messaging: Simple to do, fast, economical and takes very little organization. Cell phone numbers can be collected at the establishments and ONE single text message can go out to a whole group and that only takes minutes to do.

2. Put "flyer announcements" in the league players envelopes.
3. Ask the league operator to send out an email message for you. (It's a two way street and you could help out the league operators by promoting their league with signage in your establishment) who knows maybe for a fee. I am AMAZED that league operators don't ask the establishment if it is OK to put up a small attractive banner in the pool rooms.

4. Live Stream Advertising: Live Streamers should be hustling the future tournament events and offering to "advertise" their tournaments. Maybe have a separate little section dedicated primarily to future events, local, regional and national. The Live Streamers wouldn't have to charge an arm and a leg for this, just something nominal that the tournament promoters wouldn't feel like they were having a tooth pulled.

5. Let's not forget some tournament announcements on AZ Billiards and maybe some OPEN discussion about the events. Tournament promoters and pool room owners are shooting themselves in the foot by not participating in this medium. It's economical, hell, it's FREE and doesn't take that much time.

6. Casino promoters are in a separate class by themselves. How easy would it be for them to send out a small footnote on those post cards or email broadcasts announcing a "special pocket billiard event"? Some people might just come and check out the newest pool talent or just come out to see one of the old timers from yesteryear.

I believe that if the promoters got more actively involved in promoting their events they would be packing their establishments, filling their events AND THEIR POCKETS.

One of the upsides of all of the "talk" that I am suggesting is that pool promoters and pool room owners MIGHT FIND OUT WHAT THEIR CUSTOMER BASE REALLY WANTS.

There's lots of things out there that promoters could be doing and in my opinion, they're just not doing it.

Maybe I should just charge a fee for every tournament promoter who wants to get it done right and do their promoting for them?

Joey
This is one of those rare moments when I have to disagree with you. You make many good and valid points in your posting but the header says ALL tournaments. Streaming is OK for minor events but the game's flagship events should be properly covered with traditional production values to give them that 'stand above the rest' quality.
I have watched nearly all the major and minor streamers who are covering events and as yet I have not seen any that match the quality of a Matchroom tournament. They all try their best but the overall impression is still of the well meaning amateur learning as they go.
Maybe the US viewers are just prepared to settle for lower quality product than we are accustomed to in Europe and other parts of the World.
Streaming has it's place but the majors need major style coverage. No disrespect to you Joey as your commentating is first class but it would be even more brilliant in a proper setting.

Running for cover!

 

[JAM]

Joey
This is one of those rare moments when I have to disagree with you. You make many good and valid points in your posting but the header says ALL tournaments. Streaming is OK for minor events but the game's flagship events should be properly covered with traditional production values to give them that 'stand above the rest' quality.
I have watched nearly all the major and minor streamers who are covering events and as yet I have not seen any that match the quality of a Matchroom tournament. They all try their best but the overall impression is still of the well meaning amateur learning as they go.
Maybe the US viewers are just prepared to settle for lower quality product than we are accustomed to in Europe and other parts of the World.
Streaming has it's place but the majors need major style coverage. No disrespect to you Joey as your commentating is first class but it would be even more brilliant in a proper setting.

Running for cover!

I know what you mean about the high-quality coverage for TV viewership. We here on this side of the pond don't have the luxury of TV coverage like y'all do over there.

I do think that Accu-Stats does a good job on the Open, though, and I do enjoy the commentators.

My all-time faves on commentating is Jerry Forsyth and some British-accented dude named "Wendell," I think. I loved listening to the animation in Wendell's voice when he was commentating the matches, and then you had Jerry's sweet Southern drawl pipe in with player tidbits. It was the best of both worlds for me.

If TV had this kind of coverage in the States, I think it would be a hit. I don't normally like to watch pool on TV, but the year those two were behind the mic, I was glued to the tube.

 

[JoeyA]

The International Crown Jewel of Pocket Billiards

Joey
This is one of those rare moments when I have to disagree with you. You make many good and valid points in your posting but the header says ALL tournaments. Streaming is OK for minor events but the game's flagship events should be properly covered with traditional production values to give them that 'stand above the rest' quality.
I have watched nearly all the major and minor streamers who are covering events and as yet I have not seen any that match the quality of a Matchroom tournament. They all try their best but the overall impression is still of the well meaning amateur learning as they go.
Maybe the US viewers are just prepared to settle for lower quality product than we are accustomed to in Europe and other parts of the World.
Streaming has it's place but the majors need major style coverage. No disrespect to you Joey as your commentating is first class but it would be even more brilliant in a proper setting.

Running for cover!

"Namaste", oh wise one!

You are of course correct as usual.

The largest and most prestigious events most certainly need to be separated by television type production quality and Matchroom Sports is the benchmark of the industry in my opinion.

Here in the states, we seldom see pocket billiards on television. I'm all for the premiere events having platinum prodution quality. My words would have been better chosen if I had said "MOST or MANY" tournaments.

The World Cup of Pool starts September 7, 2010 and of course it's Matchroom Sport setting the standard. IMO, If you want to see the INTERNATIONAL CROWN JEWELS of pool, this is the one.

This year the World Cup of Pool will have its stars shining down on Manila! 32 teams playing for a QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS.

It would be great to see this one in person, even better, sitting in the booth with Alex Lely or any of the other great commentators that Matchroom Sport always seems to always have on their production.

 

[JesPiddlin]

...The livestreams, though they seem like they have a thousand viewers, the majority of them are bots.(

We ran a live stream without telling anyone a week ago. I had one person stop in (hi Spanky) unexpected, but all those bots didn't come by our stream. I didn't really want spectators, so I didn't publicize it at that time. I can only deal with so much change at once, so I'm adding a little every week. Viewers wasn't last week's addition. But, we added viewers, this week.

We don't have any big tournaments at our place, normally... although we've been thinking about it. However, we have family members at home who would love to be able to watch their loved ones play pool and there are a lot of follks who can't get out to play, so we offer them the family tournament experience. None of us are pros, or even close. We're just 6 speeds or less. Some of us are really good... sometimes, and not-so-great... other times. Come see. I made some recordings of the first 3 weeks. http://ustream.tv/channel/qspot

I know of at least one league operator who isn't into all this new stuff and doesn't really want anything to do with it. This person doesn't realize the help it can offer. A lot of folks still don't have the internet or don't think it's such a great idea.

I'm with you, JoeyA... It's great publicity and a lot of fun, too. I have been saying for over a year that ALL the big events should be streamed. Some folks thought maybe people should have to pay to see the big events. I say that if they see the big events, they have a better idea if they might want to attend them. More people express their intentions to attend an event during or after a live stream. Proof that it works. Oh well.

 

[dardusm]

I agree with Joey. It's a low cost option that can pay dividends for the game down the road. A business tactic called "guerrilla marketing" is using low cost marketing ideas to promote your business in any way possible. Businesses such as Little Caesars Pizza and Liberty Tax use this marketing strategy.

I disagree with Jam. Pool can be a spectator sport (it's about marketing). Just look at snooker in England. It is very popular on tv. Housewives that don't play snooker will watch it everyday. Why? Because of the players. They identify with certain players and want to see how they do. Pool was huge in the turn of the century. People would come watch because it was the thing to do not necessarily for the love of the game. Plus, pool is huge in foreign markets such as Asia.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that pool can be the next NFL. But, It can improve its lot and grow. And grass roots streaming can do nothing but help. IMHO

 

[theevangalist]

Streaming

Yea i also agree with your statement about streaming. giving the people instant action to the events going on in the world is an important thing. If there were only a way for users to stream things from any where in the world to one place......

 

[pro9dg]

"Namaste", oh wise one!

You are of course correct as usual.

The largest and most prestigious events most certainly need to be separated by television type production quality and Matchroom Sports is the benchmark of the industry in my opinion.

Here in the states, we seldom see pocket billiards on television. I'm all for the premiere events having platinum prodution quality. My words would have been better chosen if I had said "MOST or MANY" tournaments.

The World Cup of Pool starts September 7, 2010 and of course it's Matchroom Sport setting the standard. IMO, If you want to see the
INTERNATIONAL CROWN JEWELS of pool, this is the one.

This year the World Cup of Pool will have its stars shining down on Manila! 32 teams playing for a QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS.

It would be great to see this one in person, even better, sitting in the booth with Alex Lely or any of the other great commentators that Matchroom Sport always seems to always have on their production.

Enshallah. But you will have to wait on Alex as he has only made a few brief visits to a Matchroom commentary box.
Sid Wendell better known as Waddel, no longer graces the tournament scene. The regulars are Jerry (the guv'nor) and Canada's consummate pro Jim Wych.
Why don't you get yourself over here and see how it is done - call it an early Christmas present to yourself.

 

[JarnoV]

One potential problem for wider adoption of live streams is the difficulty of finding good commentators or commentators at all. I think commentators make a huge difference for the spectator and even a poor commentator is better than none. I hope that as live streaming becomes ever more popular that it attracts new people to the booth, because it really livens up the experience. The man himself, JoeyA, has done a brilliant job especially with One Pocket commentating and finding guest commentators like Jeremy Jones and Danny Harriman etc.

I think it's best to strive to have two live commentators, because it seems to make the job a whole lot easier. When you're alone commentating, you have to constantly come up with something to say and with little or no experience it can be a frightening proposition. With someone else to bounce comments to, it makes it smoother and easier.

That said, I agree with JoeyA. Furthermore, I think that the whole economy is changing. Live streaming itself doesn't perhaps change the situation much, but the Internet in whole will be (and has already been) a major disruptive force. Traditional media like newspapers and TV are already struggling because of the Internet. Some of the implications are not desirable for all parties, but suffice to say that the new economy brings more overall value.

These are exciting times we live in.

 

[nathandumoulin]

I have watched nearly all the major and minor streamers who are covering events and as yet I have not seen any that match the quality of a Matchroom tournament. They all try their best but the overall impression is still of the well meaning amateur learning as they go.

A few quick things to consider here:

1) Matchroom has been doing this for years and years now, and have a dedicated crew. I've been told that it costs them upwards of a *million dollars* to create their productions.

2) The coverage of the US Open Ten Ball was considered the best stream thus far. Perhaps this is your 'major stream'? The stream was actually organized the day before the event between a handful of people who had never even met before (let alone worked together), and it cost only *a few thousand* dollars.

So considering the 500-fold price difference, there's obviously a reason why US streaming isn't on par with European standards.

My company now offers a solution to this (a low-cost intermediate broadcast), but that's another story altogether.

 

[pro9dg]

A few quick things to consider here:

1) Matchroom has been doing this for years and years now, and have a dedicated crew. I've been told that it costs them upwards of a *million dollars* to create their productions.

2) The coverage of the US Open Ten Ball was considered the best stream thus far. Perhaps this is your 'major stream'? The stream was actually organized the day before the event between a handful of people who had never even met before (let alone worked together), and it cost only *a few thousand* dollars.

So considering the 500-fold price difference, there's obviously a reason why US streaming isn't on par with European standards.

My company now offers a solution to this (a low-cost intermediate broadcast), but that's another story altogether.

Nathan
I was in no way trying to put down your efforts and I anticipated your response.
A Matchroom TV Production that cost 'upwards of a million' would include the prize fund and a lot of other ancillary costs associated with a quality production. But they also have a product that is marketable in many countries. So the costs are probably comparable at the end of the day.

I wish you well and look forward to seeing your new project coming to fruition.
Doug

 

[JoeyA]

A few quick things to consider here:

1) Matchroom has been doing this for years and years now, and have a dedicated crew. I've been told that it costs them upwards of a *million dollars* to create their productions.

2) The coverage of the US Open Ten Ball was considered the best stream thus far. Perhaps this is your 'major stream'? The stream was actually organized the day before the event between a handful of people who had never even met before (let alone worked together), and it cost only *a few thousand* dollars.

So considering the 500-fold price difference, there's obviously a reason why US streaming isn't on par with European standards.

My company now offers a solution to this (a low-cost intermediate broadcast), but that's another story altogether.

Nathan,
I'm not hitting you up for a job, although I know I would have a great time working with you. I've seen some of your video production and the graphics and audio are superior to most of the pool instructional video quality out there.

But, I really would like to hear more about your company offering a low-cost intermediate broadcast.

Is it possible for you to continue on in this thread about what you are able to provide and all of the services that you can offer at this time? Or perhaps even start another separate thread (your preference). This thread afterall, is really about promoting pool and live streaming is a medium that has even reached its infancy.

Thanks!

 

[JCIN]

Who is going to pay for it?

To stream a three day tournament requires the following expenses for one of the established streamers to do it:

Airfare or gas money: $100-$500

Four days hotel (get there one day early to set up): $200-$300

Pay for the streamers time and equipment. Just figure $10 an hour for three ten hour days: $300 (Which is still total charity on the part of the streamer)

So we get $600 to $1100 to do a three day event with the streamer still doing it basically for free especially if they bring anything more complex than a camera and laptop.

None of the above includes incidental expenses for little things like gaffers tape and other consumables, wear and tear on shipping/moving/set up and tear down of gear.

It is hard to justify $600 to $1100 in expenses to cover a $2000-$5000 added tournament. Besides the numbers of viewers on those events at least the ones I have done and watched rarely gets a concurrent audience of more than 400-500 viewers and that is at the high end. Many events I have checked out the numbers listed are much less. Some streamers have taken to not letting the current audience count be shown. Only one reason for that I can think of, they must not be blowing up or they would want it out there for everyone to see.

When TAR streamed the US Open 10 Ball this year we had a crew of five. We were able to trade out for some compensation but total expenses including that trade out's dollar value and cash was around $6000. We had a great crew but the guys who helped made nowhere near what they should of and what they were worth. This stuff when you try to do much more than one guy with a static camera or two gets expensive fast.

Bottom line is everyone wants quality coverage for events but as of yet no one has figured out how to pay for it. There are plenty of hobbyists with a tripod, camera and laptop who will do a good basic job of letting people see what is going in a basic way. They will do it until they get bored or the gee whiz wears off.

People ask me all the time to come do different events. When I break down just what it will cost me to get there and stay there for the duration, forget getting anything for my time or the five figures worth of equipment I will bring, they usually act shocked. I completely understand their point of view too. It is hard to justify paying $1000 to stream a $3000 added tournament.

The Seminoles have embraced streaming and use Big Truck for their events but they are the only ones in the game with the means to make it make sense. Every other promoter wants the coverage but is hard pressed to come up with a way to make it make sense.

As for Matchroom style coverage it is impossible in the current climate in this country. You are talking six figures in production costs for a five to seven day major event, no network is going to pay that and no promoter can either.

 

[JCIN]

The livestreams, though they seem like they have a thousand viewers, the majority of them are bots.

This is news to me. On a stream with 1000 viewers how many are "bots" ? How do you come to this conclusion ?

 

[smashmouth]

streaming is a gift from the pool gods, a few grand to have your tournament broadcast live world wide is a pittance

 

[JCIN]

streaming is a gift from the pool gods, a few grand to have your tournament broadcast live world wide is a pittance

It is a pretty good value IMO. But seeing as how most events these days lose money in the first place or make very little it is hard to come up with that dough.

Most of the promoters do it for the same reason everyone else in the industry does, because they love it. That love can only go so far.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Justin is 110% right here, he knows it better then anyone. I do what I do as a hobby, I thank the sponsors and fans I have who watch. I would say on a Tuesday night the peak number of viewers at one time might be around 100, totals for the night can vary for unique IPs from 500-2000, if it goes to the front page of Ustream the numbers can hit tens of thousands but they are not true viewers who want to watch pool though. The small group of people watching the streams are all the same people who watch the streaming and are mainly on AZ Billiards. There are hundreds of thousands of pool players in leagues and I wish they would find out about the streaming and we might see a stream that has 10,000 viewers at one time on it.

I do not know how an event can warrant having a stream unless its a 10,000 added or more tournament with some sponsors who could benefit from the online exposure. IMO the bang for the buck is huge and a promoter could say I will be having the tournament live broadcast on the net and can run commercials and banners on the broadcast and possibly attract sponsors that way. Paying 1000-1500 for a stream that could attract more money in sponsorship because it is a great thing to offer might work as opposed to just a banner in a poolroom for a sponsor which maybe 100 people see all weekend. I feel bad for the guys like Justin who have a good deal invested and its a business for them because of no money in pool and get shafted by people always wanting something for nothing, not talking really about the viewers but more about the venues and promoters.

 

[peteypooldude]

Prime time pool in the US does not exist that I know of,With ESPN it is BS most of the time. Woman's events that are 10 yrs old,and run to death . If you get a mans event it is speed pool ,or something from 1993 . IMHO nothing beats a good stream as far as watching . TAR and Big Truck and a few others do an amazing job if they have an adequate hook up . If the rooms made sure the internet was up to par ,then I say the heck with ESPN I have had a belly full of those people . With the ones I mentioned such as TAR covering the 10 Ball open in Vegas ,it does not get better than that . Or the Reno event that Earl won .ESPN has had the chance for years and IMO forced the hand of the streamers . Who wants to see chopped up edited mess that takes 10 years to see it . Get their internet speed up and keep it coming . It is getting better all the time and More real . Mika or Thorston in the booth . It doesn't get any better IMHO